Bosch Domination?

[Zed]

It would be interesting to see someone on an Orbea Rise or Rotwild R375 tackle the uphill stages - I reckon they have enough power not to be left behind, but the significantly lighter weight would really help in line choice.

My money would be on them being left behind, even on the milder uphills, and completely devastated in the power stages. I'd be surprised if the lighter weight added up to much on the downhills, might even be a disadvantage. Would be interesting to watch for sure though!

 

[Zed]

Steve Jones did an epic Alps ride/ comp. That kind of format seems good. Something you’d never consider on a pedal bike unless a total pain nutter.

I definitely would not consider it on an ebike either
Honestly if suffrage is the goal a non-e bike seems logical...
Personally, I like the E Enduro format and think for the average Joe doing local racing it's superb. It's kind of the point. Enjoy the downs, and suffer less on the ups.
As for Pro level well we have to wait and see how it plays out. Judging it as it stands now seems premature.

 

[Zed]

I noticed Jared Graves at the bottom of the leaderboard in the EWS-E. Really awesome to see him back in the game, the E thing might just be while he gets back to fitness (he had a serious brain tumor), interesting...

AusCycling | Graves Returns to EWS

World Exclusive // The Jared Graves Interview - [R]evolution MTB (revolutionmtb.com.au)

 

[jooles]

I definitely would not consider it on an ebike either
Honestly if suffrage is the goal a non-e bike seems logical...
Personally, I like the E Enduro format and think for the average Joe doing local racing it's superb. It's kind of the point. Enjoy the downs, and suffer less on the ups.
As for Pro level well we have to wait and see how it plays out. Judging it as it stands now seems premature.

Yiu do t need a motor to run an average Joe Enduro; plenty are run for the average Joe already. Or were until covid hit.

I think the message coming out is that E Enduro racing needs to take into account the pedal assist element more in the competing. E.g More technical uphill sections Included.

We aren’t judging just pitching-in ideas and creating a discussion forum for the future. That’s the point of forums.

This is early days in a huge explosion of take up of a sport and yes, it’s finding its feet in terms of competition and direction. What we do know is that ebikes are here to stay now.

 

[jooles]

Ps totally off topic; who likes the look of that Haibike Nuduro 7 ?

Rob can you get your mitts on one; looks intriguing and banger value…

 

[Zed]

Yiu do t need a motor to run an average Joe Enduro; plenty are run for the average Joe already. Or were until covid hit.

Don't need one no, of course, but I'd like one. The same as I'd like a motor for my local trails. That's why I bought an ebike. Seems weird to explain that on these forums.

I think the message coming out is that E Enduro racing needs to take into account the pedal assist element more in the competing. E.g More technical uphill sections Included.

Seems like that makes it a motor power competition though. Ok, driving motor development sounds good. But there's the other angle - that the eBike should be a fitness leveller allowing us to compete at descending without the fitness competition. So like downhill, with less broken bones. I like that idea. Of course, that would be replicating regular Enduro at a pro level. So it can only happen when eBike completely take over the market

We aren’t judging just pitching-in ideas and creating a discussion forum for the future. That’s the point of forums.

There's lots of judgment in the thread so far. Have a count of the word "farce" for example

I believe that falls into the category of a judgement. And that's perfectly fine - it's just expressing an opinion. That's the point of forums.

 

[Gary]

who likes the look of that Haibike Nuduro 7 ?

Not even Stevie?

 

[Zed]

that the eBike should be a fitness leveller allowing us to compete at descending without the fitness competition

I was pondering this. I've realized in more recent times that fitness is what limits my descending speed. I hit a wall where I can't safely maneuver the bike any faster and so I brake. And that happens automagically, it's sub-conscious.

I only realized this when I looked at the data and saw I was pinging max heart rate around 185 on the descents, and then recovering on the uphill (thanks to the ebike).

I believe the fitness that I'm lacking is actually strength. Or some combination of muscular endurance, stamina and strength. A different "fitness" to pedal-uphill fitness. And this is why you see so many top end Enduro riders that clearly spend a lot of time under a barbell. I remember watching in an interview Tracey Atherton saying that new bike gear didn't equal better times - more push ups meant better times. This wasn't something on my radar in the past when on an analog bike. I focused on pedaling more, and worried a lot about power->weight (like a XC rider or even roadie would/should).

So I'm turning my fitness work to strength for a while and backing off the pedaling fitness. I'll come back to that.

I'm in crap shape and will need to find a new woman in the near-ish future. So definitely makes sense on more than one front

 

[Gary]

That doesn't necessarily show a lack of fitness.
On a mtb Ive always hit my max HR on descents. Not climbs.
Wheras the opposite is true on my roadbike.
This hasn't changed whether extremely fit or lacking fitness. The thing is. Descending on an mtb is an all over workout requiring fast and slow twitch muscle forces. Climbing rarely does. even super technical steep climbing.


PS. Who the hell is Tracey Atherton?

 

[Zed]

That doesn't necessarily show a lack of fitness.
On a mtb Ive always hit my max HR on descents. Not climbs.
Wheras the opposite is true on my roadbike.
This hasn't changed whether extremely fit or lacking fitness. The thing is. Descending on an mtb is an all over workout requiring fast and slow twitch muscle forces. Climbing rarely does. even super technical steep climbing.

Yeah, I think I'm probably using "fitness" to describe muscular stamina where the term doesn't fit (or isn't used). My point was that descending taxes us physically in a different way to the climbing, which is the same thing you're saying. More anaerobic, more strength related.

PS. Who the hell is Tracey Atherton?

Hahah! Mental slip... Tracey Moseley. Or Rachel Atherton I think it was Tracey... lol

 

[Zed]

Jared's EWS-E bike

NEW Yeti 160E E-Bike Revealed! | The First EMTB Designed For Racing? - YouTube

Interesting point about alloy vs carbon wheels.

I would seriously drool over that if it were Bosch... but I haven't actually tried an EP8 so maybe that doesn't make sense. It's no doubt more configurable and maybe even you can derestrict by changing country like the e8000? I'll be thinking about that stuff more with my next bike.

 

[jooles]

Not even Stevie?
View attachment 71465

Your next plan to not only do and Enduro without helmet but also blindfolded fella ? ;-)

 

[Doomanic]

I would seriously drool over that if it were Bosch... but I haven't actually tried an EP8

I have. It’s so far behind the Gen 4 Bosch that it’s hard to believe it’s a new motor. It feels flat and underpowered, doesn’t perform as well when called upon and uses more battery on similar rides. Sure, the display is lovely, but if it means I get a punchy, economical motor I’ll happily stick with the Nokia cast off that Bosch use.

 

[Gary]

Your next plan to not only do and Enduro without helmet but also blindfolded fella ? ;-)

I'd rather poke my own eyes out than do an Enduro bro

 

[jooles]

I do wonder how the Pw X3 will play out. Little said about the X2 and not sure if it has a clutch, how it delivers power and the big question…reliability. Although little said about the Yam units reliabilit; perhaps as not as universally used as Bosch, Brose and Shimano ? I’d just avoid Brose …Mahle seems better on the SL Spesh versions but nowt under 7k for basic spec.

It does appear Bosch has the top ranking motor now in terms of usability, reliability and perhaps why it’s standing out at the EWSE.

For my next eeb I too would err towards a Bosch unit. Along with a frame geo that I know suits and reasonable pricing. One reason I was drawn to the Nduro 7 was for these reasons. Even though Gary took the urine. The Haibike does look fugly as does the Megawatt and quite a few capable ebikes. However it’s the PW X3 also intrigued me. Along with Float 38/X2 shock and under £5k. 63 HA good reach for someone over 6’2” and not stupid short CS to unbalance weight. Sometimes something without form has great function…

Issue is availability. It’s still utterly ridiculous out there.

 

[jooles]

I'd rather poke my own eyes out than do an Enduro bro

Me too I just like to ( am normally without any other option) ride alone…and maybe from my posts you can see why ;-)

 

[stiv674]

I have. It’s so far behind the Gen 4 Bosch that it’s hard to believe it’s a new motor. It feels flat and underpowered, doesn’t perform as well when called upon and uses more battery on similar rides. Sure, the display is lovely, but if it means I get a punchy, economical motor I’ll happily stick with the Nokia cast off that Bosch use.

Is the battery usage based on your own experience?

 

[Doomanic]

I haven't actually tried an EP8

I have.

Is the battery usage based on your own experience?

Yes.

 

[Zed]

I have. It’s so far behind the Gen 4 Bosch that it’s hard to believe it’s a new motor. It feels flat and underpowered, doesn’t perform as well when called upon and uses more battery on similar rides. Sure, the display is lovely, but if it means I get a punchy, economical motor I’ll happily stick with the Nokia cast off that Bosch use.

Yeah that seemed to be consensus when I was deciding on a bike, not all that long ago. I went with the Bosch Gen 4, and I am very happy with it. It's powerful, and actually pretty quiet too. Really powerful at lower cadences versus my other bikes and makes standing up and grinding some sections actually worthwhile. It's annoying that I had to volspeed, but so far that's been 100%, so not a problem at this point. The way the Kiox only binds with the Bosch app - although restrictive in only being able to use that app - it does actually work very well, and very reliably. It's also nice never having to manually start/stop logging - I just put my heart rate strap on, look for the mobile icon on the dash, and ride away.

 

[thbo]

Almost the entire EWS-E podium was made up of Bosch riders.

Can others really compete in the outright power stages?


Seems Bosch are on a home run with this Gen4

As 2 out of the last 3 were also Bosch Gen 4 (and 3 of the 4 who did not finish) one could argue “domination” in this case doesn’t *necessarily* mean what the marketing copy implies. Like how Windows dominated MacOS, and Android “dominates” iOS. Or VHS dominated BetaMax if you want to go there (and are old). I’m hoping it doesn’t come to the latter where all others “die” though.

As for the mentioned power stage only 2 of the top 3 were Bosch, where the second place went to Rocky Mountain’s Dyname motor. Exactly the same top 2 as in the power stage in last years EWS-E at Zermatt (for consistency). Except at Zermatt’s power stage last year only 1 out of the top 3 were Bosch gen 4, as the other motors then were a Brose S Mag as well as the mentioned Dyname 3.0.

And the Dyname motor, being in-house and exclusive to Rocky Mountain, very unlike Bosch’s reach, means the “Dyname 3.0 team” had all their eggs in a basket of just *one* starting rider (with a high score 2:15 penalty) at Crans-Montana this year. (High score penalty of 5:45 at Zermatt 2020 btw).

I’m not at all saying the Dyname 3.0 system or any others mentioned is better than Bosch gen 4 btw, quite the opposite in some ways for the Dyname 3.0 at least, just that one should remember Bosch is a huge entity at both engineering, business and marketing copy. And, unlike Shimano, Brose etc., that Bosch tends to prefer doing sweet deals with the big bike manufacturers who in turn already have the most dough for their teams and riders. Not that there’s anything inherently wrong with that.

I *will* say the *riders* usually at the top are better than the ones under though. Maybe also their bikes (me pondering that is why factory teams exists). It’s just important to remember that other things matter more than the motor we emtb-ers tend to focus on. Like the bike in general (and of course the rider’s technique) just as in normal enduro.

And further, though not in opposition to following the sport too (so maybe irrelevant), I’d bet enduro isn’t what most of us bought an emtb for. I once bought a 450ccm motocross bike off a professional Yamaha team and the tuned motor, suspension setup and screaming acceleration was just impractical for my rides, and unfortunately turned me off it all. I still like to look at new motor bikes and follow my nephews’ motocrossing though. But most enjoy tinkering with the mechanical fairly traditional parts of my (e)bike, and then enjoying a quiet flow trail via assisted pedals in the mountains. And then going home and reading about new emtb components of course?

 

[lightning]

My mate thinks the Bosch motor in his Cube is better than my Shimano. And it many ways it probably is. lt certainly makes less noise, and has more modes, and he's got a 625Wh battery rather than my 504Wh

Right up until l overtake him at 17mph, Shimano de restricted to "USA mode" 20mph with a bit of software, Bosch totally locked down and next to impossible.

 

[Gary]

We don't need any more modes than eco/trail/boost Pedal inputs with your Shimano motor in both eco and trail result in a far more natural feeling ride than any of bosch' modes.
This matters way more than ultimate power, torque or battery range to me.
Nm torque warz is stupid.
Not quite as stupid as racing electric assisted push bikes with unequal outputs uphill though

 

[R120]

The software that puts down the power is far more important that the power output on ebike motors. No point in having a super powerful motor if its a dog to ride.

From a riders perspective its about understanding how to best pedal/cadence/ratchet blah blah blah with how the system works that will get you up the hill fastest, assuming you actually have the technical skills in the first place.

I also think that in the EWS-E there are a lot of riders who have been told by their sponsors to do it, and probably haven't spent that much time on an EMTB. Technical hillclimbing on an EMTB is bloody difficult, and requires really understanding how the motor works and working with it to achieve anything. I would also say form personally experience how you would approach a technical climb on a shimano in trail, and a Bosch in EMTB mode is fair different, s the Bosch has the overrun you can use, whereas the shimano is far more like ow you would use a normal bike - with the Bosch you can learn how to use the overrun.

I cant think of any better masterclass on how to get up the impossible than Chris Akrigg, riding a bike that most on here would turn there noses up at, and all in trail mode. Obviously he has the technical skills, but also he has very clearly though about how to best use the motor, pedal inputs, etc to get the job done. You can see him manoeuvring the bike into positions whey he can maximise what he wants out of the motor input.

 

[thbo]

We don't need any more modes than eco/trail/boost Pedal inputs with your Shimano motor in both eco and trail result in a far more natural feeling ride than any of bosch' modes.
This matters way more than ultimate power, torque or battery range to me.
Nm torque warz is stupid.
Not quite as stupid as racing electric assisted push bikes unequal outputs uphill though

Amen. To prioritizing natural feeling ride (which makes me admit which motor is somewhat important after all, but I’m thinking of my own rides on trails, not professional timed enduro over 7 minutes on the outer limits of the motor «box rules» metrics!). I have no experience with the Shimano EP8 though.

The emtb motor biz is still a bit like the megapixel race in cameras, or hertz in computers, until everybody understood we had arrived at a non-limiting ridiculous level, and changed to another metrics. Preferably a more sensible one for human riders.

 

[Gary]

Shimano motors do actually have over run too. It's just far more subtle. Chris makes good use of it as you can see above.

 

[Mteam]

At present I'd go for shimano ep8 for my next bike - I currently have bosch gen 4.

for these reasons

- The power/torque of the shimano may not be as much as the bosch, but its plenty enough
- Shimano has much better controls and integration
- Shimano can be upgraded to latest versions of firmware at home
- shimano can be 'unlocked' easier
- shimano can have things like wheel size changed by end user

Bosch ridiculous stance on only allowing dealers to alter settings/firmware etc on the motor is very offputting to me, andthe controls, displays are dire.

BUt i'm not gong to be changing bikes for a couple ofyears yet, so will see what the score is when I come to change.

 

[lightning]

l have to say that "trail" mode on my E8000 is superb, when pedalling out of the saddle it's so intuitive, there's no surging or anything, it just feels like being on a regular bike, but on a really good day.

 

[thbo]

At present I'd go for shimano ep8 for my next bike - I currently have bosch gen 4.

for these reasons

- The power/torque of the shimano may not be as much as the bosch, but its plenty enough
- Shimano has much better controls and integration
- Shimano can be upgraded to latest versions of firmware at home
- shimano can be 'unlocked' easier
- shimano can have things like wheel size changed by end user

Bosch ridiculous stance on only allowing dealers to alter settings/firmware etc on the motor is very offputting to me, andthe controls, displays are dire.

BUt i'm not gong to be changing bikes for a couple ofyears yet, so will see what the score is when I come to change.

I have no horse in this particular race, but Bosch’s new “Smart Bike System” as per sept 2021 allows firmware update via the (new “Flow”) app (and motor tuning). Seems to me Shimano isn’t reading EU law the same strict way Bosch is (eg. if you can trick it to offer power at higher speeds by changing wheel size, which for example Specialized also removed at a point).

I was going to mention Bosch’s new controls for 2022 but nobody likes them, and I don’t know what you’re thinking of by “integration”. I do like the minimalism of the Shimano display though.

 

[Pivot]

This is a Mercedes vs BMW discussion ‍
Choose your weapon and fight for your life

 

[Jimbo Vills]

This is a Mercedes vs BMW discussion ‍
Choose your weapon and fight for your life

i pick Audi ?

fiiiiiiiiggghhhttt!!!!!