Bafang M630 Thread

[Neeko DeVinchi]

Fresh off the press and unveiled at the 2023 Shanghai Cycle Show

The "M620 Killer!!", kicking out 250NM of peak torque.

Surely, no drivetrain is designed for a motor like this!?

......oh!!!!

Well, I guess it was inevitable that Bafang would capitalise on building another powerful motor.
And what's this!!!

It shares the same mounting position as the M620

Well, I guess Bafang listened to the criticisms concerning 'backwards compatibility'.

Well, almost all of the criticisms. The new motor is exclusively using CANBus protocol.

Feel free to download the pdf for more details

 

[Mabman]

Thanks for that update Neeko. This won't have any use to me and my current UART M620 which has plenty enough low end torque for my needs and will rip the chain in half no problem if not careful!

I saw that 5spd IGH on another forum and as much as I would be attracted to an IGH that could handle an M620/30's torque the fact that it is an axle based hub doesn't do anything for me or quite frankly I don't see it for most of the frames that will accept these motors as they are primarily thru axle type?

I managed to drown my original M620 being foolish so be warned that while they do ok in wet conditions are not rated for full submersion for any length of time. Perhaps the new IPx6 rating addresses that but not sure how it would. I was able to get a new UART motor and immediately split the case and pulled out the less than a teaspoon of white lithium grease in there and replaced it with two tablespoons of John Deere Cornhead grease which does an excellent job quieting the steel gears and can't recommend highly enough as a lubricant for any type of enclosed gear system. Have to imagine that it improves efficiency also as it reduces friction.

 

[Mayners]

Fresh off the press and unveiled at the 2023 Shanghai Cycle Show
View attachment 113940
The "M620 Killer!!", kicking out 250NM of peak torque.
View attachment 113943
Surely, no drivetrain is designed for a motor like this!?
View attachment 113944
......oh!!!!
View attachment 113946
Well, I guess it was inevitable that Bafang would capitalise on building another powerful motor.
And what's this!!!
View attachment 113947
It shares the same mounting position as the M620

Well, I guess Bafang listened to the criticisms concerning 'backwards compatibility'.
View attachment 113948
Well, almost all of the criticisms. The new motor is exclusively using CANBus protocol.

Feel free to download the pdf for more details

Rly intressting at all! At moment I still ride my Innotrace x1 m620. But looking foreword for this new one ! Whats about weight ? Its the same weight? Dont read something about it

 

[TQFreak]

If that Bafang gearhub can hold 250NM torque then they also got the Kindernay killer. Especially with that maximum gear ratio (over 3) bigger than Kindernay VII maximum gear ratio (about 2) that thing can go crazy fast, faster than any drivetrain on the market.

 

[Bengy22]

Lots to like about this updated m620, drop in ready for existing m620 frames, higher efficiency with A 56% increase in torque, 24w headlight plug, a claimed 1500w rated power option (the hotrodder in me likes this a lot, means it can take a lot of power), ipx6 rating. The only thing that worries me is that they have moved over fully to the can-bus system. I also notice the big drops in rpms though which has me questioning how it will stack up against the m620 in the real world tests, I assume the higher rpms of the m620 could be more favorable for the road with the m630 being a off-road beast! But I guess we will have to wait for it to fully come out and reviews to follow. I'm curious about the stock controller also, they only list 48v so no native 52v support? Also curious if they stuck with 30a or considering its now rated at 50% more power did they also up the battery amps to 45a to follow

 

[TQFreak]

If they state it runs more efficient and they redesigned the stator and the rotor they probably use thicker wires for the stator coils which means it can take more amps than M620 and be more powerful with aftermarket controllers without overheating.

Increasing torque and reducing RPM without changing the power (same 1500W) likely means they increased the gear ratio between the motor rotor shaft and the output shaft. This is good thing for pedal assist mode, but not for throttle mode. M620 at 52V can spin so fast before it lost torque that your legs can not keep up with it rendering M620 has extra weight with no use at pedal assist mode only but it is good if you use throttle because of you shift the gears less and maybe even use mostly only one gear. It is also good for the drivetrain because of less stress. M630 has increased motor rotor shaft to output shaft gear ratio which means now you can have more torque at more human friendly cadence range. But at throttle mode it will be slower with the same drivetrain so you will need to shift more gears and it will abuse the drivetrain more.

If they state it is 1500W then it is still 30A motor (or 20A for 1000W). I do not think they will lift the current over 30A because of almost all the batteries on the market for 48-52V are 30A maximum. They will need to start making new batteries to lift the amperage and the current of the motor. They may lift the power of the motor if bikes manufacturers will have such need.

They also can not lift the power of the motor over 1500W and current more than 30A for safety reason. If m630 is plug and play replacement for m620 then it can cause overheating the wires and the batteries and cause fire on the bikes with dummy batteries on the users who would just buy m630 to replace m620 without replacing the rest of the system if that m630 would pull more than 30A.

I would consider this motor as more pedal assist friendly in stock form with more potential power for aftermarket controllers like Innotrace.

Both stock m620 and m630 should have the same top speed if they are both 1500W and if the drivetrain allows to reach the speed when the wind resistance is equal the power of the motor.

 

[hedgehog99]

If they state it is 1500W then it is still 30A motor (or 20A for 1000W)

I believe they stated that motor is RATED 1500w, so it would mean it should be peaking 2200-2300w.

There was two choises: Motors rated 1000w and 1500w

 

[hedgehog99]

If m630 is plug and play replacement for m620 then it can cause overheating the wires and the batteries and cause fire on the bikes with dummy batteries on the users who would just buy m630 to replace m620 without replacing the rest of the system if that m630 would pull more than 30A.

It can cause overheating, but it can be changed to replace M620 if you don't drive too crazy with full power for long times. And you of course need to have decent quality battery, even if it has only 30A BMS. "Dummy" batteries can cause problems even with stock 1000w rated (1500w peak) M620.

I have 1700w rated M620 (Innotrace controller) and a battery with only 30A BMS, and I have not had problems ever. Of course it stresses the battery and BMS more but not necessarily so much that you will ever notice it if you have a well built battery. Of cource it is not recommended to use too small BMS and it surely has potential risk with those "dummy" batteries.

 

[Bengy22]

If they state it is 1500W then it is still 30A motor (or 20A for 1000W). I do not think they will lift the current over 30A because of almost all the batteries on the market for 48-52V are 30A maximum. They will need to start making new batteries to lift the amperage and the current of the motor. They may lift the power of the motor if bikes manufacturers will have such need.

They also can not lift the power of the motor over 1500W and current more than 30A for safety reason. If m630 is plug and play replacement for m620 then it can cause overheating the wires and the batteries and cause fire on the bikes with dummy batteries on the users who would just buy m630 to replace m620 without replacing the rest of the system if that m630 would pull more than 30A.

Like the other comment said, they state rated power at 1kw and 1.5kw, the m620 was stated to have a 750w and 1kw option so seems bafang is confident that this updated motor can take a significant amount more power. My question is if they went far enough to increase the rated power that much it seems possible that they also could have increased the amperage of the controller to go along with it.

I would argue that most batteries on the market are 30a because that's what bafang decided to make there controllers take, in a 14s4p 21700 battery lets say its built around samsung 50e's which seem to be a very common cell in them. At 4p that's 40a cont 60a peak, so easily able to handle say a stock 45a controller but we still see them shipped with 20-30a bms's because they will cheap out if they can. If bafang came out with a motor that can do 45a oems will build for it. But for the drop in aspect maybe that's why they are selling the 1kw option so people who want to do that can and still get all the other benefits? Or even just a case of higher amperage being locked behind firmware, so that if you use it you fully understand the risk.

Also with reguards to the rpms I assume part of the efficiency claims is a new FOC controller, maybe to make up for the drop they will have some Field Weakening implemented (also maybe why they thought to beef up the motor due to how inefficient it can be)? Interesting stuff I wonder how long it will take to get in the hands of some reviewers or for the whole information to come out

 

[Dado]

Hedgehog, interesting they have bring up even more nominal power. Just dont undetstand that low rpms on cranks, that must be some mistake. Only 70 rpms at full load. Looks to me, like they not counting with pedal input. Top speed will be problem, you would need to use big chainring.

Lets see how it will handle power over 2kW.
With Inno, M620 is going overheat quite quick and then limiting to 1600W

 

[hedgehog99]

Just dont undetstand that low rpms on cranks, that must be some mistake. Only 70 rpms

Where did you find this info? I can't find that number anywhere for some reason

 

[Dado]

Reading the characteristics on dyno in that document.

M620 looks very wrong. That was wrong measure I would say. Efficency is ramping down too soon.

 

[Neeko DeVinchi]

@Dado does raise a good point. I'm presuming that a stock CANBus M620 ran with a 48v battery and set to a maximum current of 30amps, would yield the result shown on the Dyno. If the M630 however is powered by a 52v battery and at an equivalent current of 30amps, this 'could' explain the difference in terms of the dyno's readings.

 

[Dado]

Still looking at curves. ) When calculating it in sweet spot, thats around 90rpm, that is with 42T/10T and 29inch "only" 50kmh.

Maybe 90rpms for legs would be ok. Some bikers going even over 100.

Voltage is almost same in both measures - 48.8V vs 48.4V

Max current is 31.5A. So I hope bafang has not mess it even in power labeling. If not started to label peak power...

 

[Bengy22]

For the lower rpm concerns I wonder if bafang will have Field Weakening with the new controllers to make up for it, possibly why they upped the rated power to 1500w as FW is a lot less efficient. Or who's to say that the 1500w model will have the same spec's other than the rated power, maybe that graph is just for the 1000w option and the 1500w with have higher rpms or maybe even the option to run at say 60v nom to make up for it. We need more info Neeko!

 

[firstlight]

If you guys had to guess when the m630 and internal gear hub will be available, what would you say? Based on previous announcements, roadmaps, and actual ship dates. Or just wild guesses, why not!

 

[Odjas]

If you guys had to guess when the m630 and internal gear hub will be available, what would you say? Based on previous announcements, roadmaps, and actual ship dates. Or just wild guesses, why not!

I think the motor will be in early 2024

 

[Bengy22]

If you guys had to guess when the m630 and internal gear hub will be available, what would you say? Based on previous announcements, roadmaps, and actual ship dates. Or just wild guesses, why not!

Well I asked @Neeko DeVinchi in the HV discord and he thought the m630 (I didn't ask about the igh) would be out by the end of the year. But in the dengfu E55 thread (Dengfu E55 (Emtb) and E56 (Fat Bike) - New selection of DIY frame) @Ben Rides from Dengfu stated "This year and next year should not be available" . I'm not sure who to trust as both seem like good sources, the pessimist in me though thinks Ben might me more correct considering the 750w m560 was announced two months sooner and we still also haven't seen it yet though.

 

[Neeko DeVinchi]

Apologies @Bengy22 for the delay. I'll clarify on the situation on the M630 motor and availability.
Ben is correct. Commercially, the M630 wont see world release until late 2024/early 2025. Currently, the system is still being developed. The physical motor has been tested and the results are shown in the pdf above. However, because Bafang are looking into conglomerating their systems as a whole in terms of displays, Bafang Go+ app, partnerships with third party groups and endorsing better channels of purchase in conjunction with their ethos for "plug-n-play" and dealership networks, it will be sometime before distributors will stock them. Two UK based longstanding Bafang merchants have even questioned me about the M630, to which I've simply relayed the following as well as pass on contact details for them to liaise with Bafang.

As for test samples, that's a different story. I can't (and won't for obvious reasons) go into detail about my arrangements publicly. All I will say, is that I will happily share my findings and experience about the M630 motor and update both the thread, the HV Discord community and the Facebook M620/M630 group and the Dengfu Facebook group

 

[Bengy22]

Apologies @Bengy22 for the delay. I'll clarify on the situation on the M630 motor and availability.
Ben is correct. Commercially, the M630 wont see world release until late 2024/early 2025. Currently, the system is still being developed. The physical motor has been tested and the results are shown in the pdf above. However, because Bafang are looking into conglomerating their systems as a whole in terms of displays, Bafang Go+ app, partnerships with third party groups and endorsing better channels of purchase in conjunction with their ethos for "plug-n-play" and dealership networks, it will be sometime before distributors will stock them. Two UK based longstanding Bafang merchants have even questioned me about the M630, to which I've simply relayed the following as well as pass on contact details for them to liaise with Bafang.

As for test samples, that's a different story. I can't (and won't for obvious reasons) go into detail about my arrangements publicly. All I will say, is that I will happily share my findings and experience about the M630 motor and update both the thread, the HV Discord community and the Facebook M620/M630 group and the Dengfu Facebook group

Dang that is sad news to hear about, I was really hoping we would start to see these on bikes for sale in the wild in early 2024. I was super interested in the 1500w rated model that was mentioned as someone who loves to mod and push stuff harder than intended, as being in the HV discord might indicate . And also if bafang finally broke above the stock 30a controller (I have a theory they did, and its why they also have a 1500w model and also why we didn't see two different motor dyno charts) or even went higher than 52v like 60v, I guess time will tell.

I eagerly await your findings and opinions on the m630 though, and I hope will will test both the 1000w and 1500w (unless rated power is the only difference) Just also wanted to say I really appreciate what you've been doing for the community with the huge amount of info you have, thank you!

 

[Ford Prefect]

If that Bafang gearhub can hold 250NM torque then they also got the Kindernay killer. Especially with that maximum gear ratio (over 3) bigger than Kindernay VII maximum gear ratio (about 2) that thing can go crazy fast, faster than any drivetrain on the market.

Personally, I'm running 40t to an 11t-42t, for just over 400% shift range... & I want 48t to an 11t-50t instead, if I can ever afford it.

335% is no slouch, but I'm pretty powerful & the m620 is plenty powerful, so I'd like to get closer to 500!

Supposedly the Nine 3x3 has good shift range?

NONE of the existing hub shifters are rated for the force exerted by a >200Lb rider standing on the front pedal with an m620 assisting at full torque...

Any hub shifter with >300% shift range & over 200Nm torque rating, stands to grab a lot of market share.

 

[Ford Prefect]

Lots to like about this updated m620, drop in ready for existing m620 frames, higher efficiency with A 56% increase in torque, 24w headlight plug, a claimed 1500w rated power option (the hotrodder in me likes this a lot, means it can take a lot of power), ipx6 rating. The only thing that worries me is that they have moved over fully to the can-bus system. I also notice the big drops in rpms though which has me questioning how it will stack up against the m620 in the real world tests, I assume the higher rpms of the m620 could be more favorable for the road with the m630 being a off-road beast! But I guess we will have to wait for it to fully come out and reviews to follow. I'm curious about the stock controller also, they only list 48v so no native 52v support? Also curious if they stuck with 30a or considering its now rated at 50% more power did they also up the battery amps to 45a to follow

I've always been a bit confused about the listings that give a "750 / 1000 W” rating; I've heard people say that the 1000 is a peak rating (clearly not, with 48V Bafang controllers defaulting to ~30A max), or that some are rated for 48V×21A nominal...

But the way the m620 looooves higher voltages (running cooler at the same wattages), I wonder if Bafang came up with 750 and 1000 by assuming 50V×15A and... ???

The unit we received makes no mention of 750W; the stamp says 1000.

 

[Ford Prefect]

I'm also no fan of CANBus. (I don't think anyone who'd like freedom to tweak settings, is?)

Without a clearer look at those graphs (on this screen, I literally can't make out the units on a few even when zoomed in?) I shouldn't even speculate, but...

My first presumption about the m630 would be the same setup as the m620, with a segmented stator & a rotor wound for lower peak RPM (which should yield higher efficiency within a smaller RPM range). Couple that with a higher nominal wattage rating (60V×30A already seemed to be no problem, for m620s with 100V caps in the controller?), & I think you've got your 250Nm.

Mostly I'm surprised they're sticking with a 48V stock setup; the m620 certainly works better with higher voltage & I have a hard time believing the m630 would be that much different.

Motors in general (& batteries too, for that matter) are staged to change so much so quickly... (Imagine one of those 4-phase switched synchronous reluctance motors with raxial horseshoe shaped coils, built for a bike...) I am glad to see Bafang continuing to produce motors in the high-powered ebike space. I anticipate huge changes in the next ten years.

 

[Bengy22]

I've always been a bit confused about the listings that give a "750 / 1000 W” rating; I've heard people say that the 1000 is a peak rating (clearly not, with 48V Bafang controllers defaulting to ~30A max), or that some are rated for 48V×21A nominal...

But the way the m620 looooves higher voltages (running cooler at the same wattages), I wonder if Bafang came up with 750 and 1000 by assuming 50V×15A and... ???

The unit we received makes no mention of 750W; the stamp says 1000.

From my knowledge its the rated power of the motor, or the wattage the motor can withstand without overheating indefinitely. Bafang's site even lists the m620 as a 1000w rated motor.

I'm well aware, even with the limited content online, mainly a few videos from Andy Kirby its quite clear the benefit it has (and I thoroughly enjoyed watching ). Well I think they came up with it dyno'ing the m620 at its rated voltage of 48v and then seeing how many amps or watts it would take, as voltage should from my understand effect the rated wattage. Like how running more voltage lets a motor run cooler for the same watts. But this should be true with most motors though, like my bbshd.

This is because its not a real 750w rated motor just the 1000w with firmware afaik, same with the bbshd. I think it's so they can just claim face value compliance with the laws in some areas but at least like a place in the EU it would actually need to be tested to make sure the rating is true, but these countries also have way lower limits. Somewhere like the USA its basically the wildwest, most companies don't even care about rated power, and if they did those ratings don't have to be backed by any data really, slap a 750w sticker on a 1000w and limit the power just a little and its good to go. Or just claim its a off-road vehicle not made to be used on the road and get the buying to pinky promise not to.

Not sure that's the case, you can see if you squint real hard that both the m620 and m620 were ran at 48v. I saw some speculation that it could be just a new stator (at least for the 1000w) that's geared for less rpms. Seemed interesting that the torque figure they are claiming went up almost 60% while the rpms went down almost 60%. But it kind of makes sense once you see they both are running the same volts and amps (although motor amps not mentioned, could be raised higher for more torque).

I fully agree from a end user stand point, really surprised we haven't seen a push past 52v to 60v. While I speculated we might see a higher voltage model for the 1500w I doubt it now that I think about it. Afaik all previous displays except for maybe one don't support over 60v max. So they would have to get a special display just for this motor along with the battery. Sounds unlikely considering they were trying to get backwards compatibility. But then again I don't really see how bafang could get the rated power 50% higher while still fitting it in the same space, higher voltage would help a lot..... Now we wait for Neeko and bafang to stop teasing us!

 

[Neeko DeVinchi]

....Now we wait for Neeko and bafang to stop teasing us!

All in good time @Bengy22

 

[Ford Prefect]

Perhaps a bit counter-intuitively, rating a motor for less than it can handle, is strongly encouraged by regulations even in the EU.

I agree that Bafang probably came up with a 750W nominal rating primarily to fit within US regulations which allow any bikes under 750W to be regulated as a "non-motorized" vehicle on roads & trails (local regulations may differ).

It's a bit odd to me, that so many people seem to think downrating the wattage handling of a motor would be somehow illegal; it isn't, it's actually a really good idea for safety & reliability reasons.

60V remains rare enough (probably due mostly to controller rarity?) that I can understand Bafang not jumping to it as a standard voltage for their systems (even though higher voltage is better in many ways)...

What puzzles me, is that their motors behave as of they were designed for 52V, yet they consistently rate/label them for 48V instead (less efficient, building up more heat for same torque). If it were purely for conformance to US regulations, it wouldn't make sense to maintain a 48V charade when rating the systems over 750W anyway... So, why stick with 48V as their standard, when their motors crave 52 or more?

Sure, any motor tends to run faster with higher voltages, but the m620 line really doesn't seem built for 48V & I'm surprised they haven't started pushing 52V systems as being more performant, more efficient, & cooler running.

Maybe when they tried 52V, they had fewer cells in parallel & observed that the faster amperage draw made the range suffer a lot? I find it bizarrely rare to see 14s6p 18650 packs, even though that's a great power density & amperage supply. (14s4p 21700 is not going to get much range, even with cells rated for high discharge.) I can understand wanting to spec a common battery config, & 14s6p doesn't even exist for many battery case types... I just wish Bafang would set the standard, because I'm sure battery pack makers would follow quite quickly thereafter.

Any ebike I built right now, would be at least 52V with 6p, or GTFO...

 

[J. Dub]

That 5speed IGH weighs a lot more than the 14 speed Rohloff. That's interesting.
Does anyone know if the DP C245 will work w/ the M630?

 

[El Topo]

They should have kept the power approximately the same, made the motor a bit smaller and put (a MTB capable) gearbox, or a stepless transmission (like Enviolo) into that that big housing.

They missed a perfect opportunity, to retrofit all these existing M620 frames. Maybe they still will, but at the pace Bafang seems to be moving, I doubt it.

With all that power availble, I am not sure why one would build a automatic transmission, without stepless gearing like Enviolo, who cares about the efficiency loss of those? Enviolo also has 380% compared to the 335% (right?) of that new Bafang IGH.

But maybe I am missing something, and all that will be a huge success, because there is a huge market for it - if yes, I suspect the rapidly growing market of e-cargo bikes in cities, for all kinds of deliveries. For E-MTB, I doubt it.

 

[Ford Prefect]

They should have kept the power approximately the same, made the motor a bit smaller and put (a MTB capable) gearbox, or a stepless transmission (like Enviolo) into that that big housing.

They missed a perfect opportunity, to retrofit all these existing M620 frames. Maybe they still will, but at the pace Bafang seems to be moving, I doubt it.

With all that power availble, I am not sure why one would build a automatic transmission, without stepless gearing like Enviolo, who cares about the efficiency loss of those? Enviolo also has 380% compared to the 335% (right?) of that new Bafang IGH.

But maybe I am missing something, and all that will be a huge success, because there is a huge market for it - if yes, I suspect the rapidly growing market of e-cargo bikes in cities, for all kinds of deliveries. For E-MTB, I doubt it.

The main issue with using Enviolo or any other hub shifter designs currently available, is that they aren't rated for even the torque I can put on the front pedal by myself, much less rider power plus motor power. The m620 alone exceeds the torque rating of Enviolo & other hub shifters, even before adding any rider effort on top of that.

Given the awful experiences I've had with failing "ebike" hub shifters, I wouldn't give a nickel for anything that wasn't rated way beyond those we see today.

Also, an extra 4% loss is a big deal, on an ebike drivetrain: With vehicles as efficient as bicycles\ebikes, any inefficiency becomes noticeable. Especially when you've got an extra large & heavy battery & chonky motor & reinforced frame to drag up a hill, any efficiency loss translates to a lot less range uphill.

 

[El Topo]

I can't comment on how well suited the current IGHs are, for a M620 motor, but I can say that a Pinion MGU pretty much checks all my boxes, and I assume that it could be married to something like a M560, which is not that far off (on paper at least), from an un-tuned M620.
And the Pinion MGU motor housing looks quite a bit smaller than the M620, from what I can tell.