Bafang m510

[patdam]

Does m510 have cadence sensor or torque sensor?

the 2

 

[WalterP]

the 2

So both? Why does it feel like it's only cadence? I've ridden few m510 bikes and they all feel like giving same assistance no matter how much pedal pressure.

Can this be tweaked in BESST?

 

[Dado]

So both? Why does it feel like it's only cadence? I've ridden few m510 bikes and they all feel like giving same assistance no matter how much pedal pressure.

Can this be tweaked in BESST?

It has both sensors.

It is strange you dont feel the difference in assistance. Is much much better comparing to M500 or M600. Check for the settings of controller if all good.

 

[Dado]

Which app and hardware are you using to connect to the motor here?

I also have an M510 and need to update these settings.

It is Go+ app over some Bafang display with BT. For example DPC245 or DPC080.

Just you still wont set Assistance level % over GO+.

Check K1 Flash, simple and works without passwords. www.k1ebikes.com

 

[Alexniks]

Greetings to all EMTB bikers, I scrolled through the forum and could not find a suitable solution, maybe I missed it. I ask for help and am ready to share my experience.
At the moment I am testing the operation of the m510 and m820 engines on different firmware and on different batteries, and during the testing process a problem arose with non-original batteries on the m510 that do not have can-bus coordination with the controller, roughly speaking, the engine control controller only sees the battery voltage and that's it. During the trip, when the battery charge level reaches 20%, the engine turns off along with the display. According to my thoughts, this is due to the fact that at this battery charge level, the controller sends a request to the battery to reduce the output power, i.e. current, to which the battery does not respond and the shutdown occurs. However, there is a nuance, after some time, about 5 minutes, I turn on the display again and the display screen already shows a charge of 5%. I have a question about how and whether it is possible to change any parameter to reduce the power limit threshold, since this function works and was tested on the m820 engine with the original battery. When driving on the M820 engine, the power limitation was 20% in the 100 watt boost mode. At the moment, the only way to cheat this limitation, in my opinion, is to reflash the M510 engine with a 48-volt battery with a 43-volt firmware, thereby changing the operating range of the engine through voltage: Battery 0-100% - voltage 50 - 36 volts. Or can you tell me what parameters in the program can be changed to get rid of the problem of power reduction when the battery charge reaches 20%.

 

[Dado]

Please do not make up things. There is nothing like "controller sends a request to the battery to reduce output power". Battery can not regulate output power, controller is regulating power to the windings. We have enough of untrue on this world, so please stop this, especially at technical field.

Controller is estimating battery percentage just from battery voltage (when you dont have battery with CAN communication). It is like this with bafangs since beginning.
Yep, shouldnt be swittching off suddenly at 20% - I guess some non quality battery, you get a big voltage drop and then BMS is tripping. Does it happening when you press throttle or you start to push into pedals on PAS 5?
Bafang SOC % estimation method is not much accurate, dont be surprised when percentage is jumping.

With undervoltage, controller should not hard shut down, but should give you undervoltage error message.

43V firmware and 48V battery - you will be sucking battery even lower and should behave same.

 

[Alexniks]

Please do not make up things. There is nothing like "controller sends a request to the battery to reduce output power". Battery can not regulate output power, controller is regulating power to the windings. We have enough of untrue on this world, so please stop this, especially at technical field.

Controller is estimating battery percentage just from battery voltage (when you dont have battery with CAN communication). It is like this with bafangs since beginning.
Yep, shouldnt be swittching off suddenly at 20% - I guess some non quality battery, you get a big voltage drop and then BMS is tripping. Does it happening when you press throttle or you start to push into pedals on PAS 5?
Bafang SOC % estimation method is not much accurate, dont be surprised when percentage is jumping.

With undervoltage, controller should not hard shut down, but should give you undervoltage error message.

43V firmware and 48V battery - you will be sucking battery even lower and should behave same.

Dado, thanks for the answer, I did not want to spread my incorrect conclusions about the issue of communication between the controller and the BMS. Having examined a non-original battery, I found that it has a BMS and I understand that this BMS already has a program for its operation, i.e. the range of voltages and currents for cutting off the overload of high and low voltage. Do I understand correctly that if you use a modifier or firmware editor to find and change the parameters responsible for disconnecting the engine at low and high voltage, you can change the operating range of the engine. i.e. if you flash the controller with firmware for 43V, install a battery for 48V, find these parameters in the firmware and change the operating range of 52V (100%) - 39V (0%), then I will be able to use the battery as efficiently as possible. And let's say if we want to control the battery cells separately (independently), you can install a Bluetooth-controlled BMS on the battery or, at least, one controlled by Bluetooth

 

[xtraman122]

Dado, thanks for the answer, I did not want to spread my incorrect conclusions about the issue of communication between the controller and the BMS. Having examined a non-original battery, I found that it has a BMS and I understand that this BMS already has a program for its operation, i.e. the range of voltages and currents for cutting off the overload of high and low voltage. Do I understand correctly that if you use a modifier or firmware editor to find and change the parameters responsible for disconnecting the engine at low and high voltage, you can change the operating range of the engine. i.e. if you flash the controller with firmware for 43V, install a battery for 48V, find these parameters in the firmware and change the operating range of 52V (100%) - 39V (0%), then I will be able to use the battery as efficiently as possible. And let's say if we want to control the battery cells separately (independently), you can install a Bluetooth-controlled BMS on the battery or, at least, one controlled by Bluetooth

All e-bike batteries will have a BMS, that’s what handles the charging process, balances the cells, limits the current output, among other things. CAN allows for the bike to communicate with the BMS to learn things like cell health, charge status, cycle count etc. It’s a communication path for the BMS to share what it knows with the bike.

Yes, generally speaking, if you flashed a motor with 43v firmware and ran it on a 48v battery you could run to a lower voltage than when it had 48v firmware, but there would be other implications as well I’m sure, including possibly having it hit high voltage warnings when fully charged.

 

[Dado]

Dado, thanks for the answer, I did not want to spread my incorrect conclusions about the issue of communication between the controller and the BMS. Having examined a non-original battery, I found that it has a BMS and I understand that this BMS already has a program for its operation, i.e. the range of voltages and currents for cutting off the overload of high and low voltage. Do I understand correctly that if you use a modifier or firmware editor to find and change the parameters responsible for disconnecting the engine at low and high voltage, you can change the operating range of the engine. i.e. if you flash the controller with firmware for 43V, install a battery for 48V, find these parameters in the firmware and change the operating range of 52V (100%) - 39V (0%), then I will be able to use the battery as efficiently as possible. And let's say if we want to control the battery cells separately (independently), you can install a Bluetooth-controlled BMS on the battery or, at least, one controlled by Bluetooth

No worries, I am just sensitive to technical nonsenses.

You right with the BMS functionalities. Basically it monitor cell voltage and currents and shutting off output when out of range. Usually BMSes are set to 2.6 to 2.8V per cell as undervoltage. (Dengfu battery is tripping at cca 2.8V per cell).

With the controllers you are right. General controllers you can set min and max voltage operation, max DC current, phase currents and many more params. Out of this voltage range, controller just goes into error. But this is not the case of Bafang controllers - here bafang is defining these values. And since we dont have source code of firmware you can not change it (maybe some magician can reverse bin file to assembler - but very timeconsuming ).

Usually Bafang controllers are taking one series cell up - so if you have 48V firmware, overvoltage is set to cca 59V, which means it will take also fully charged 52V battery. SOC battery % will be off though - as firmware still thinks you have 48V battery.
With this trick 43V firmware and 48V battery, you will get little more power. As lower voltage firmwares have defined more max current. M510 example: 48V firmware has defined max current 14A. 43V firmware has defined 16A. 36V firmware has 19A.

You can do what you want with smart BT BMS and set tresholds and everything (and there is like 30 parameters to set) , important is how is controller set and how deep allows you to discharge.

Check BBR - this device is simulating BMS CAN communication, correcting wrong SOC and also you can set how deep you want to discharge. I do not recommend go below 2.8V per cell - here battery is suffering and you are lowering charging cycles.
If I remember right, Tesla is discharging down to 3.0V per cell (when it shows SOC 0%) and then with "extra buffer" down to 2.9V per cell (talking about NMC batteries in Tesla).

 

[Freda]

and bafang thinks we should stop riding at 3.6V per cell..

 

[Dado]

Yes, it is strange, why they set it so high with non CAN battery. It is limiting power esince 3.6V and ends at cca 3.3V, but hard to get to 0%

With CAN battery it is little different, motor is taking into account only SOC % reported by battery, so depends how is BMS programmed, when is reporting 0%. Also saw firmwares when controller was switching when CAN battery was connected - power limitation from 10%, but with DYI battery limitation from 25%.

 

[aegidius]

Has anyone actually seen the SDK for display-to-Go communication that Bafang talk about in their C244/245 manuals?

 

[LAnton]

What is the difference between a motor with a v2.1 controller and a v2.0 motor?

 

[Dado]

Hello Lanton.

There is a slight change in few components on a PCB board, so nothing major. Also v2.1 is coming with firmware v6.1 48V

 

[balibesnier]

You can run the M600's on a 52V full charge ( 58.4V ) without a problem, well at least my one will.

Don't forget with 52 volts you get slightly a higher cadence if you want it and slightly cooler motor ( negliable ). The M600's at 52 volts and short cranks are a nice combination as the motor seems to like spinning at a relatively high cadence to get the best from it.

Will a 52v on a m600 give you better range?

 

[Waynemarlow]

Will a 52v on a m600 give you better range?

As much as we want better range by going to higher voltages, power at the back wheel is simply watts of energy and if you need X amount of power to get from A to B then the range will be very similar across voltages. What a lot of people mistake is that the time taken to get from A to B is less at higher voltages ( basically your motor is outputting higher watts at each level ) and then say that the range is reduced.

From my experience the M600 engine does seem to like 52V over 48V, seems to feel somewhat livelier and free reving. I like higher cadences and 52V extends upwards that cadence sweet spot where the motor seems the happiest. But in comparison to the later M510's which you can adjust the motors behaviour, sadly I have yet to find a M600 controller where this is possible.

 

[Dado]

From theory, with higher voltage you should get better efficiency (less currents, less heat), but this difference 48V vs 52V does not play any role. As Waynemarlow wrote, you will get higher rpms and higher speed, which is lowering the range.

 

[Rosz]

Hi All

I am in the market for a new ebike.. actually my first ebike.

So after some research few options came in: Bosch CX Gen 4 (very respected mother with good warranty support but EU limited ), Shimano EP8 (EU limited and bad support)

So it seems Bafang is the way to go (is it?) and M510 sands out from the crowd. I have few questions about it. Is Bafang m510 the better option in therms of firmwares...community ..ability to override some EU restrictions and in general is it a good buy compared to other Bafang motors?

If you would have to decide which motor you will go with for your first ebike which would be ?

I don't mind getting my hands dirty or into deep dive into the Tech aspect.

Thanks everyone.

 

[CiDi]

Hi All

I am in the market for a new ebike.. actually my first ebike.

So after some research few options came in: Bosch CX Gen 4 (very respected mother with good warranty support but EU limited ), Shimano EP8 (EU limited and bad support)

So it seems Bafang is the way to go (is it?) and M510 sands out from the crowd. I have few questions about it. Is Bafang m510 the better option in therms of firmwares...community ..ability to override some EU restrictions and in general is it a good buy compared to other Bafang motors?

If you would have to decide which motor you will go with for your first ebike which would be ?

I don't mind getting my hands dirty or into deep dive into the Tech aspect.

Thanks everyone.

M510 is the right choice for us geeks, it is more powerful than Bosch and it is configurable.
You can set the maximum speed limit, you can add the accelerator and you can use any 36/43/48V battery and with the accessory from our friend DADO even 52V.

 

[Rosz]

Indeed looks like the right choice for geeks and more "open source" people. The only things not to get the FC 1.0 version. You said is is more powerful than Bosch CX 4, is that really the case as on many places I saw that it is actually the same or weaker..

 

[Dado]

Hello. It is peaking 720W electrical. Yes, the question is efficiency, so what power is at the rear wheel. Bosch is not peaking this power.

Here is one comparison from one ebiker from USA. Same trail. 20 minutes difference on 30 mile track.

 

[Zimmerframe]

So after some research few options came in: Bosch CX Gen 4 (very respected mother with good warranty support but EU limited ), Shimano EP8 (EU limited and bad support)

So it seems Bafang is the way to go (is it?) and M510 sands out from the crowd. I have few questions about it. Is Bafang m510 the better option in therms of firmwares...community ..ability to override some EU restrictions and in general is it a good buy compared to other Bafang motors?

You can certainly do a lot more with the M510 if you're interested in that side, plus it's easy to de-restrict.

Personally I find my gen4 Bosch gives me more usable power/faster averages on climbs and point to point because of the way the power is delivered. I also find I can get more range - though that can vary either way a lot depending on what assistance modes you're using and how much assistance you want on a ride - EMTB mode on the Bosch helps a lot giving a good balance of power when you need it and range - you don't quite get the same thing on the M510 and resort to changing assistance modes instead if you're really trying to optimise a ride.

For whatever reason I generally prefer my M510 bike over my others.

The M510 definitely performs well and I've had zero issues with mine, though I've had zero motor issues with my Bosch/Brose/Shimano bikes.

Haven't ridden as much this year as taking time out to recover properly from injuries, though did a de-restricted test on the M510 a few weeks ago to see how it performed with power consistency/temperature when pushed hard. Didn't quite go as planned as I wasn't as fit as normal so climbing performance dropped off rapidly ! But yes, it performs well and is comparable with the competition.

 

[Rosz]

I think I will go for M510. Not sure of it will have any warranty from the seller (Berria from Spain)...but at least on paper it should have. But however buys ebike with Bafang motor should assume that he/she will be the support for it...and not expect any good support under warranty.

 

[Andy5]

Hello. It is peaking 720W electrical. Yes, the question is efficiency, so what power is at the rear wheel. Bosch is not peaking this power.

Here is one comparison from one ebiker from USA. Same trail. 20 minutes difference on 30 mile track.

View attachment 152205

Bosch CX gen5 and Bosch CX Race have peak power input 750W:Der große E-Bike Motoren Vergleich - 15 E-MTB Motoren im Test
My M510 FC2 has peak power input 700-750 W (display C245).
According to tests on climbs, the M510 is slightly slower than the Bosch CX4 (approx. 1 s on a 1 min and 10 s climb):

 

[Rosz]

But Bosch would never go beyond 25 km/h (for EU)....For mountain rides ...25 km/h is more than enough...but I would like to ride my bike in city also ...and then those 25 km/h limit are really a showstopper...