Alternatives to 'standard' derailleurs ...

[irie]

The standard derailleur hanging down next to the rear wheel is a prime target for branches, rocks, and general debris etc. Why do we still have this horribly exposed contraption inherited from road bikes? It is really up to the two major players, Sram and Shimano, to come up with a better alternative instead of repeatedly trying to polish the current derailleur turd.

There are alternatives, such as the Lal Bikes Supre Drive ...

Lal Bikes – Introducing a new type of mountain bike drivetrain called the Supre Drive.

lalbikes.com

 

[yorkshire89]

Can't see SRAM/Shimano rushing to change the design anytime soon. It's not really in their interest to make something that would mean less sales unfortunately

 

[irie]

Can't see SRAM/Shimano rushing to change the design anytime soon. It's not really in their interest to make something that would mean less sales unfortunately

Will probably require a new entrant into this market segment, perhaps an established motor manufacturer (such as Bosch).

 

[yorkshire89]

True, I'm really hoping Bosch or somebody come along with a reliable gearbox motor and I can forget about smashing mech's on rocks!

 

[RustyMTB]

There is a reason gearbox bikes have never taken off... The rise of eebs could change that where weight is less of a consideration but it's still a lot to pack in round a bottom bracket. Meanwhile I see SRAM have thrown dollar at refining the external mech. Again.

 

[Growmac]

It's also that, for all their drawbacks, mech based drive chains are remarkably efficient. A gearbox might lose 5 - 16% of the input power, compared to about 3% for a mech based system. That doesn't sound like much, for an ebike that might be a good tradeoff, but traditionally that's been a show stopper for a lot of people.

 

[irie]

It's also that, for all their drawbacks, mech based drive chains are remarkably efficient. A gearbox might lose 5 - 16% of the input power, compared to about 3% for a mech based system. That doesn't sound like much, for an ebike that might be a good tradeoff, but traditionally that's been a show stopper for a lot of people.

With eBikes a lot of traditional thinking is being forced to change.

 

[Gavalar]

The standard derailleur hanging down next to the rear wheel is a prime target for branches, rocks, and general debris etc. Why do we still have this horribly exposed contraption inherited from road bikes? It is really up to the two major players, Sram and Shimano, to come up with a better alternative instead of repeatedly trying to polish the current derailleur turd.

There are alternatives, such as the Lal Bikes Supre Drive ...

Lal Bikes – Introducing a new type of mountain bike drivetrain called the Supre Drive.

lalbikes.com

View attachment 109812

So buy a Zerode, problem sorted.

 

[Philippe M]

Hello emtbforums,
Question has anyone heard about anything about this German emtb manufacturer?

German E-Bike Specialist Nicolai Updates GT1 Eboxx With New Gear Hub

The Nine 3x3 gear hub system brings a number of performance-focused benefits to the table.

insideevs.com

Thanks

 

[Gavalar]

Only that they have been around since the mid 90's, all handmade, there are a few reviews on PB and YouTube.

 

[Binhill1]

Hello emtbforums,
Question has anyone heard about anything about this German emtb manufacturer?
View attachment 110080

German E-Bike Specialist Nicolai Updates GT1 Eboxx With New Gear Hub

The Nine 3x3 gear hub system brings a number of performance-focused benefits to the table.

insideevs.com

Thanks

I had two before my ebike great custom made bikes .I looked at the ebike they have as it had Rholof and gates drive but I would have had to import it from Germany myself . That was 2019 may have changed now. My mate was a Nicolai dealer .

 

[cappuccino34]

Shimano have recently been granted a patent for a derailleur where the cage goes forward, rather than downwards.

 

[Philippe M]

Thanks Gavalar..just seamed like a good place to ask since the thread was about derailleur..this bike the GTI Eboxx has an internal geared hub..not quite sure of the enduro frame geo..looks a bit slack..but love the idea of no derailleur!

 

[RustyIron]

True, I'm really hoping Bosch or somebody come along with a reliable gearbox motor and I can forget about smashing mech's on rocks!

It takes a lot of guts to say that here. . There are other threads on EMTB that suggest only incompetent newbies have pedal strikes. I don't know WHAT that implies about those who have rock strikes on their derailleurs. Of course that NEVER happens to me. All those scratches on my components must happen when my friends throw the bikes in the back of the truck when I'm not looking.

About alternatives to the standard derailleur...
The kookiest thing I've ever seen was a "variable chainring" back in the 1970's. The toothed sections moved in and out on spiral tracks. It needed a lot of maintenance and didn't work all that well.

In my profession, back in the Stone Age, we used to have big giant DC motors in order to have precise control over motor speed and torque. In modern times, motors are three phase and their size is a fraction of what they were in the past. Control is via variable voltage, variable frequency drives. Speed and torque are more precisely controlled, allowing the elimination of gear boxes. The controls and software are obviously much more sophisticated than in the old days, which is probably a hindrance to adoption of VVVF drives by bicycle motor manufacturers. While it might not be economically feasible to develop VVVF motors for bikes at this time, you can bet there are engineers scratching their heads and thinking about it.

 

[Chairman]

I gotta say as much as I dislike the derailleur system this new sram transmission does look to be the goods. I don't like the price but you can say that about most new tech

 

[cappuccino34]

I'm guessing the one you're talking about is the one in here not far down from the top :

Not sure the new SRAM Eagle Transmission is for you - What other options are there ?

SRAM recently released the New Eagle Transmission system. Rumoured and talked about for 4 years and shown in Patents for 6 months now, ridden extensively by Nino Schurter last season, it's finally released into the real world. Originally...

www.emtbforums.com

Yes, that one

 

[Tasilee]

I lashed out on a Rohloff 14 speed hub and Gates belt drive and find it perfect for any conditions. Almost zero maintenance (an annual oil change) and a belt that probably outlasts 6 chains. I’d bet that belt drives will gain increasing support, after all, do you see chains used in car engines these days?

 

[irie]

I lashed out on a Rohloff 14 speed hub and Gates belt drive and find it perfect for any conditions. Almost zero maintenance (an annual oil change) and a belt that probably outlasts 6 chains. I’d bet that belt drives will gain increasing support, after all, do you see chains used in car engines these days?

Agreed, cam chains have mostly been replaced by belts. However, when cam chains get over worn they became noisy whereas cam belts fail and at best take out the top of your engine, and at worst also the bottom end. Don't ask me how I know.

 

[Zimmerframe]

Pffft .... Gears !!!

Cosworth GMA V12

Ducati Desmosedici V4RR

Ferrari V12

Not sure .. someone who really really liked gears ? I get dizzy just looking at it.

Renault V10 (F1)

 

[cappuccino34]

Sorry to snap your belts for you, but chains are now by far the most popular camshaft drive method.

They're mostly crap too though.
BMW chains........... Dogpoo.
Vauxhall chains... Dogpoo.
VAG chains............. Dogpoo.

Ford (and one or two others) use a 'wet belt', that's a rubber belt running in the oil. You can probably guess how good those are.


Yes..... Dogpoo.

 

[cappuccino34]

Come to think, a derailleur is probably more robust than a BMW or Vauxhall cam chain.

 

[Zimmerframe]

Sorry to snap your belts for you, but chains are now by far the most popular camshaft drive method.

My antique 2002 Sprinter is chain driven (I can't believe I've owned something so long). It's recommended to change the chain at 80-100k but as it's my Ecological Sprinter (waste as few of earth's resources on it as possible, plus the green bits must support a vast spectrum of life) I've gone for the "see how long it lasts" option.

There is a theory (from a respected source) that it should last the life of the vehicle :

Key Failure - Harmonic Balancer Failure

Dumb question, does everyone think that this failure is because of mileage or time and mileage? Have have an 06, but only 17,000 miles on it. I just did the brakes on it, as it look like but can not prove, I had a premature disc failure on one rear disc. Not ready for another huge...

sprinter-source.com

In fairness, if it does fail, then yes - it would have lasted the life of the vehicle as it probably wouldn't be economically viable to put a new engine in.

 

[RustyMTB]

Some times it's not the timing chain that lets you down...

 

[cappuccino34]

Some times it's not the timing chain that lets you down...

View attachment 110139

It did snap though, albeit due to camshaft seizure.

 

[RustyMTB]

It did snap though, albeit due to camshaft seizure.

What did?

 

[yorkshire89]

It takes a lot of guts to say that here. . There are other threads on EMTB that suggest only incompetent newbies have pedal strikes. I don't know WHAT that implies about those who have rock strikes on their derailleurs. Of course that NEVER happens to me. All those scratches on my components must happen when my friends throw the bikes in the back of the truck when I'm not looking.

Haha I wouldn't say I'm a newbie but these things happen when you are pushing your limits or trying to thread you're bike through rocky gullies. You still see pro's doing it during races, Jack Moir calls it paying your derailleur tax

Honda created a gearbox on their DH bike Greg Minaar was racing. It was just a box around the BB that had a cassette and derailleur in there, but it also meant you could change gear without pedalling, and moved all that weight from the back wheel to the centre of the bike.

I also heard that Shimano and SRAM both have patents for their own gearbox system so they'd have something to switch too if they ever took off.

 

[Pezzar]

The standard derailleur hanging down next to the rear wheel is a prime target for branches, rocks, and general debris etc. Why do we still have this horribly exposed contraption inherited from road bikes? It is really up to the two major players, Sram and Shimano, to come up with a better alternative instead of repeatedly trying to polish the current derailleur turd.

There are alternatives, such as the Lal Bikes Supre Drive ...

Lal Bikes – Introducing a new type of mountain bike drivetrain called the Supre Drive.

lalbikes.com

View attachment 109812

How much extra weight is all that? I think maybe there is a reason I've never seen this configuration out there in the real world.

 

[Zimmerframe]

It did snap though, albeit due to camshaft seizure.

What did?

I think the image is deceptive .. it looks like the chain snapped too, but it's actually behind the broken sprocket. Quite amazing the chain didn't break !

Honda created a gearbox on their DH bike Greg Minaar was racing. It was just a box around the BB that had a cassette and derailleur in there, but it also meant you could change gear without pedalling, and moved all that weight from the back wheel to the centre of the bike.

Amazing bike, there's some blurb and a link to more info in here :

Not sure the new SRAM Eagle Transmission is for you - What other options are there ?

SRAM recently released the New Eagle Transmission system. Rumoured and talked about for 4 years and shown in Patents for 6 months now, ridden extensively by Nino Schurter last season, it's finally released into the real world. Originally...

www.emtbforums.com

How much extra weight is all that? I think maybe there is a reason I've never seen this configuration out there in the real world.

200g - I don't think there are any out in the real world yet. They'd signed up with some manufactures (can't remember who).

 

[RustyMTB]

It's my car...

The sprocket broke because foolishly, I attempted to lock the engine in order to do up the hub nut by jamming a screwdriver through the cam sprocket. Nothing seized except my judgment.

 

[Pezzar]

I think the image is deceptive .. it looks like the chain snapped too, but it's actually behind the broken sprocket. Quite amazing the chain didn't break !



Amazing bike, there's some blurb and a link to more info in here :

Not sure the new SRAM Eagle Transmission is for you - What other options are there ?

SRAM recently released the New Eagle Transmission system. Rumoured and talked about for 4 years and shown in Patents for 6 months now, ridden extensively by Nino Schurter last season, it's finally released into the real world. Originally...

www.emtbforums.com

200g - I don't think there are any out in the real world yet. They'd signed up with some manufactures (can't remember who).

200g doesn't sound terrible, on an e-bike it's negligible - it looks just over engineered to me which means more to go wrong - I mean a stick and a load of mud amongst that lot would be carnage. That design has been out there years as well, very slow to take off or be taken up by manufacturers- again, there has to be a reason.