GIANT Traumas. Are they BATTERY firmware related?

[Evolution Stu]

Here is something to ponder over.
Could our power down issues be battery firmware related?

A few hundred miles ago I fitted to my MY20 Trance E+2Pro.

New motor.
New loom. (Latest 21 version)
New discharge connector. (Latest 21 version)
Shim mod.(1x)
New charging port.
New ride control one unit. FLED28-15
New speed sensor.
I have two batteries, a 500 and a 625, the latter of which is only a couple of thousand miles old.

All this was intentionally fitted at exactly the same time after a very long wait for a new motor, so I assembled all these new parts in a dry workshop so that I could rubberise every connector (pic to follow) BEFORE it ever got wet to rule out trapping moisture in the connectors after my 2 years of Giant pain. (1st bike rejected, this one has had multiple motors, a battery, many control units etc)

I also silicon sealed the crappy fitting motor covers to the bike frame.
Plus I use a neoprene battery cover to protect that also, as well as a controller cover and battery connector waterproof fitting.

There is absolutely no way water is entering my electrics.
Yet, 358 miles later…


We had already tried battery in and out multiple times, clean connectors, bounce the bike, etc… mates battery was a last ditch attempt.
we then continued on and did another 5 miles trouble free using each other’s battery until my battery (In his bike), gave a red light so we called time on the ride. During that ride we stopped twice and tried the battery back in mine. Never worked.

Back at the car, we did the same and mine still wouldn’t power my bike, so we tried my second (fully charged) battery.
That also didn’t work which was the biggest surprise.

Out of the three batteries, only my mates battery would power my bike.

Back at home after an hours drive in the rain with the bike on the back of the car, back at home all is well, all three batteries work and no fault can be found so of course, no point taking it to the shop for diagnostics.

Now I only want to ride if my mate can come too.

The only interesting thing out of this baffling mess, is that my mates 625 battery happens to be newer than both of mine.
I am wondering about battery firmware doing wiring/resistance/impedance checks…..

**Update / 28th June 2023**
This bike has had all its issues resolved and has now covered 18months of trouble free riding.
Read on to learn what the problem was...

 

[Evolution Stu]

My wiring is ALL like this. Motor, CANbus, RCone. All of it. I can sit a garden hose on it all day and it has no issues.

Yet still we all have these damn problems!

 

[Trancer]

Could there be a tolerance issue between your bike's connectors (male) and your battery's (female)? I'd try bending the male connectors slightly to one side in an attempt to achieve an interference fit.

 

[Evolution Stu]

Could there be a tolerance issue between your bike's connectors (male) and your battery's (female)? I'd try bending the male connectors slightly to one side in an attempt to achieve an interference fit.

Tried all that first, trying a mates battery was the last resort.
also, my discharge connector is brand new, has the shim mod and remember my 2nd battery also wouldn’t work back at the car.
(Updated main post to reflect that now)

Plus, back at my house an hour later, both my batteries worked just fine again don’t forget.

 

[7869hodgy]

Worryingly when I got home the up asked to update. Hope that hasn’t screwed with what Giant did.

 

[anfos]

Since the batteries are working when you get back home it should be a temperature issue? What kind of weather were you riding at?
Despite having a neoprene cover, if you ride at very cold temps and the cover gets wet maybe it's not enough to keep the battery warm? Although your friend's battery is working correctly, then maybe it's a connector issue.

 

[Evolution Stu]

Temperature.
Around 8degrees C.
Spare battery back at the car had been inside the car of course and still didn’t work.
Allied to the fact that my battery worked on his bike for another hour but still wouldn’t on mine during a couple of stops where we tried them again, we can assume it’s nothing to do with temperature As his bike can’t be a different temperature to mine.

Plus the hour ride home is on the back of the car and was pouring with rain so the battery will have got colder not warmer.
All three batteries worked just fine back at home.

Connector
Connector as mentioned in the OP is literally brand new, and my mates is 3 years old.
Mine also has the shim mod, his doesn’t.

Also, all batteries Work just fine at home an hour later on the same connector.

 

[Zimmerframe]

It sounds like your batteries have become self aware and just don't like you

 

[Evolution Stu]

It sounds like your batteries have become self aware and just don't like you

Even that would be better than the reality that neither us or giant seem to know how to fix these problems.

If the batteries just hated me I could sell them on and buy new, vowing to forever keep them warm and dry, never forget their birthday and never look sideways at another lithium cell etc...

But no.
Instead we have these dramas. Similar to being married to be fair.

Me to bike. = "Whats been wrong with you all day?"
Bike Diags = "Nothing"

 

[7869hodgy]

That is super frustrating. It’s not clear or I missed it but have Giant had the bike back? They had mine for under 2 weeks after the LBS couldn’t work out the issue even having replaced everything bar the battery and they are a very good LBS in my opinion.

There was no expiation for my bike not working after working fine. Having a second bike helps as I can still go out but if it’s your only bike the proposition doesn’t really stand up.

I was lucky as I was only without my for 4 and a bit weeks and the weather has been $hit. If it been in the Summer……

 

[Evolution Stu]

Hi,
oh yes, indeed they have had it back.
I have likely detailed it elsewhere but here is my tale of woe… (I’d grab a coffee)

MY20 Giant Trance E+2 Pro

Collected brand new: Feb 7th 2020.
This bike was a trade up for my rejected MY19 E+3Pro Which had a hub, a motor, a fork, 3 controllers and was generally nothing but trouble.


5th March = Ride One Controller failure (FLED28-10)
Had to wait a week for a new one to come

New one fitted and lost auto mode and ANT+ as they installed controller for a 2019 bike. (FLED28-07)
Had to wait again for a 2nd one to arrive.


25th March. = Speed sensor failure.
(Cracked plug due to placement in casing)
2 weeks wait. New one fitted 10th April.



15th June = Battery failure.
3 weeks wait until 6th July for a new one so bought a spare at same time.
That came faster than the warranty unit.



20th July = Motor bearings failure. (1st motor failure)
4 weeks wait until 21st August for her 2nd motor to be fitted.

20th July = Dropper post changed under warranty whilst it was in.


6th September = Ride One Controller failure
1 week wait until new one arrived 14th September (FLED28-10)


22nd November = Motor failure (2nd Motor failure)
26th November, her 3rd motor was installed.


14th December = Ride One Controller failure
1 week wait until 20th December. (FLED28-15 this time.)



18th January 21 = Dropper post failure again. (twists)
Shop said it needs to be sent to Giant for inspection which I wasn’t willing to do as I would have no bike.
I found a service kit for sale in USA so bought it and fixed it myself. Why cant these be available in UK?



19th May 21 = Motor bearings failure again. (3rd Motor failure)
Claim initialised by the shop and told week 29. Week 29 arrived and then told week 33. (16th Aug week)

18th Aug 2021 = her 4th Motor installed.
This time it was installed with brand new RCone (FLED28-15) new upgraded loom, new UPGRADED battery discharge connector and identical but new charging port plus the battery shim mod for good measure. Then it was all waterproofed with liquid insulator for good measure as always.


25th September 21.
Cut out on Garburn Pass.
No idea why, seemed warm and dry, wouldnt stay on. Took it back to car and it was fine when we got home.


13th Nov 21
Cut out at Gisburn Forest.
was wet, but same symptoms as the Garburn failure. Controller wont stay on.
Took it back to car and it was fine when we got home.


5th Dec 21.
Cut out at Gisburn with Steve.
Steves has identical bike so as a last resort after the usual wiggling, bouncing and swearing we tried his battery and it powered up my bike fine. As did my battery power his. Finished our ride no problem. back at the car neither of my own batteries would power it. But Steve’s still would on multiple occasions after lots of messing with connectors and cleaning of contacts.

Back at home, all batteries worked fine again. Baffled.
Current mileage is a little under 3000 miles.

**
Note:
This diary contains only the failures dealt with by warranty, I’ve bought at least 6 dropper repair kits until I gave up and fitted a BrandX Ascend and have fitted multiple RCOne control units myself as it was faster to start changing them myself as the LBS, whilst excellent. Is a 2hr round trip from me. So I started to educate myself on how these damn things tick and do my own diagnosis and repairs. I just wish I could get the Giant software to help me further.

**
Note 2:
this bike has been using the Excellent RCOne cover and battery terminal insulator pretty much since their inception.
They work a treat.

Giant came out with a similar battery terminal solution not long after these hit market.
You can see the cover in my video and the terminal insulator can be seen in this pic alongside the Giant version on my other battery.

and my wiring is always waterproofed like this:

As end users, I don’t think we can do any more.
you know, this would have made a cool separate topic, detailing how to waterproof them.

Problem is, it still cuts out from time to time…

 

[7869hodgy]

Ok. Got it. I’ve not modded mine other than moving the battery latch which stopped the cut outs.

Send it back. Consumer rights and all that.

 

[Goodmango13]

So sorry to hear of such frustration and you obviously have tried beyond the norm to correct and prevent such problems....I too have had 2 Giant Trance Pros, one after the other that just kept failing to charge and multiple batteries , etc....LBS which is great, were clueless as to reasoning for the problems....in the end I got rid of both bikes and simply think I must have had a temporary learning disability by purchasing a second Trance Pro....it's not proper to put a bike on the market with such across the board issues and no fix after all these years....I moved on....very content with the quality and service of another Special brand I won't mention....best to you in figuring this out.....Giant should truly put you on their board for such detailed attention to this problem

 

[funnel]

From my experience if the battery is discharged to zero it takes some time to even start charging and it doesn't power the bike. Also happens if the battery is too hot I think, it doesn't charge. You need to let it leave for a few hours for it to get cool and the internal BMS balances the cells.

 

[Evolution Stu]

Same problem today.
Bike did the first ride at Gisburn just fine on my 625w battery. About 12 miles and 2500ft of ascent.

Had lunch, went back to car, we all swopped batteries and started another session.

About an hour in, mine dies and won’t stay on. I have to borrow Steve’s battery to continue the ride.

Back at the car, we try swopping them all around and again, BOTH of his batteries will power my bike fine and mine will power his fine, but mine won’t power mine!

It was pouring with rain so tried again back at home in my garage and did a short video.

 

[anfos]

Same problem today.
Bike did the first ride at Gisburn just fine on my 625w battery. About 12 miles and 2500ft of ascent.

Had lunch, went back to car, we all swopped batteries and started another session.

About an hour in, mine dies and won’t stay on. I have to borrow Steve’s battery to continue the ride.

Back at the car, we try swopping them all around and again, BOTH of his batteries will power my bike fine and mine will power his fine, but mine won’t power mine!

It was pouring with rain so tried again back at home in my garage and did a short video.

So when you get the power off if you remove your battery and add it on the other bike it works it means there are no issues with the batteries but probably the chipset that communicates between the control unit and the battery is malfunctioning for some reason?
Maybe check those connections between the battery and the chipset, as shown on this scheme and if there is a short-circuit issue?

 

[Zimmerframe]

So when you get the power off if you remove your battery and add it on the other bike it works it means there are no issues with the batteries but probably the chipset that communicates between the control unit and the battery is malfunctioning for some reason?
Maybe check those connections between the battery and the chipset, as shown on this scheme I assume and if there is a short-circuit issue?

View attachment 77977

I see the problem. There are several places in the diagram where electrons are required to ark across to be with their friends. It's amazing any of it works really..

Ok, so being more serious. For @Evolution Stu Could it be something really weird that batteries are logged in certain ways. You 625 stops working and it flags an error. You drop in a 500 and the error stays. Logically, you've changed batteries, but depending how they've written things, it think "I have an error on a 625". You drop in a 500 and that stays in it's log until it's clear. You drop in your mates 625 and it thinks ah, 625- no error - it's fixed itself. I've no idea how they've written it and we're grasping at straws. If you start with the 500, get your problem then put his 625 in, does that fit it or not ?

 

[anfos]

I was also wondering something similar. Why not try his battery for a few rides to see if the same issue appears?

 

[Evolution Stu]

So when you get the power off if you remove your battery and add it on the other bike it works it means there are no issues with the batteries but probably the chipset that communicates between the control unit and the battery is malfunctioning for some reason?
Maybe check those connections between the battery and the chipset, as shown on this scheme and if there is a short-circuit issue?

I understand your thinking and appreciate your input. Brainstorming is valuable.

I have been over and over this with every scenario imaginable.
Two facts rule out connection problems if all things were equal.

1) A faulty battery would not work on any bike.
2) A faulty controller or loom would not work with any battery.

Yet here we have a situation where battery 1, a 625 works all day and is retired to the car with 40% charge left and is replaced with battery 2, a 500. That 500 works for an hour and the bike dies. At that point neither that 500 or the earlier working 625 will power the bike up. Yet they will still both power up someone else’s.

That scenario says, faulty bike.
Until you find out someone else’s 2 batteries will both work fine on your bike.

In no combination of swopping them around can we make mine work. We try my 500 first, then his. My 625 then his, both mine then both his, both his then both mine. The results are always the same. My batteries don't work anymore.

The situation is made even stranger by the fact they always work again next day. I don’t take the bike apart, or even dry it. It just decides to work again and when it does, both batteries work again.

 

[Evolution Stu]

Could it be something really weird that batteries are logged in certain ways. You 625 stops working and it flags an error. You drop in a 500 and the error stays. Logically, you've changed batteries, but depending how they've written things, it think "I have an error on a 625". You drop in a 500 and that stays in it's log until it's clear. You drop in your mates 625 and it thinks ah, 625- no error - it's fixed itself. I've no idea how they've written it and we're grasping at straws. If you start with the 500, get your problem then put his 625 in, does that fit it or not ?

I think we have tried every scenario possible with the swops, but can’t be sure without actually documenting it. You could be onto something if the controller is logging the fault, but then if there actually was a battery fault at all, it wouldn’t work on his bike either. (We would assume)

This brings me back to my thinking that we have a FIRMWARE issue here.
where that firmware lives is a bit of a quandary as his is a 2019 bike with no auto mode so he potentially has three different firmwares on his bike. (RCOne, 2019 motor and his battery.) However, since my bike exhibits the problem and his doesn’t at all that leads me to think battery firmware.

Let’s paint a scenario:
What if my bike actually has a small problem with moisture somewhere and it’s causing a CANbus communication error?
It is entirely feasible that a battery management system could see a comms loss as a dangerous problem and drop power.

Now what if GIANT saw so much of this little issue that later battery firmwares had been improved to accept small communication errors for, let’s say 10 seconds and leave power up?

That is a scenario where a problem could exist on a bike but the battery firmware responds in a different way.
That scenario would actually fit my situation perfectly.

Note:
The CANbus data is just one fault scenario. The same could exist for a too high or low resistance seen across a connector terminal and the firmware has been adjusted to accept a different range in its checks.

The external charging/comms port is subject to high moisture on a damp day for example, so maybe early battery firmwares were a little too touchy about their component checks and dropped power at the slightest sign of change, so later firmwares had looser tolerances that better suited a bike subject to high moisture conditions with open connectors. (Charging port, 2 lighting connectors plus one CANbus connector are all virtually open to air on these bikes from the factory.)

 

[Evolution Stu]

As a belt and braces excersize tonight I have tried all of the available RideOne Control units from FLED28-07 to FLED28-15 as I have one of each as test units.

I updated a couple of them whilst I was at it. Just in case. No change… this 500w battery still won’t power my bike but my mates does.

 

[Evolution Stu]

So, interesting update.
I have been liasing with my local GIANT Shop in Blackpool who has been supremely helpful, especially considering I didn’t actually buy the bike from him. He has been in contact with GIANT who confirm there are firmware changes in the battery management systems specifically coded to help with moisture problems these bikes have across the CANBus connectors.

They told him that when he plugs it into his dealer tool, if the battery has a “Late teens” firmware number, it’s had the fix applied and earlier batteries can come in for an update to that firmware but it cannot be done at the dealers unless they send a guy out to do it specifically. No idea why.

Anyway…
The shop invited me to bring the bike and all three batteries (my 2x and my mates 1x) in and he would pull their firmware versions To see if it sheds any light on this wierd problem.

I waited with baited breath to see if my mates “Super battery” that always gets me out of trouble actually has this new firmware.
IT DOES! He is on 0x17. Mine are on version 0x10 and 0x11. So maybe there is some light at the end of this dark tunnel!

 

[Trancer]

So, interesting update.
I have been liasing with my local GIANT Shop in Blackpool who has been supremely helpful, especially considering I didn’t actually buy the bike from him. He has been in contact with GIANT who confirm there are firmware changes in the battery management systems specifically coded to help with moisture problems these bikes have across the CANBus connectors.

They told him that when he plugs it into his dealer tool, if the battery has a “Late teens” firmware number, it’s had the fix applied and earlier batteries can come in for an update to that firmware but it cannot be done at the dealers unless they send a guy out to do it specifically. No idea why.

Anyway…
The shop invited me to bring the bike and all three batteries (my 2x and my mates 1x) in and he would pull their firmware versions To see if it sheds any light on this wierd problem.

I waited with baited breath to see if my mates “Super battery” that always gets me out of trouble actually has this new firmware.
IT DOES! He is on 0x17. Mine are on version 0x10 and 0x11. So maybe there is some light at the end of this dark tunnel!

Fingers crossed this will be finally resolved. Good luck.

 

[Mikerb]

reading through this I beleive the issue from the outset has been lack of compatibility of the 500w/h battery ( yours) with the bike's firmware. The fact that it would work for a while suggests it threw a fault code which if not rectified within a given time/ distance would shut down power. The only reasons for a bike's firmware to have such a function is to protect the motor ( either from hacking or from a potentially damaging or dangerous battery fault). It also sounds like the bike's firmware method of managing things post shutdown is a little haphazard! The electronics are capable of managing a time limit shutdown.
Hopefully your latest work with the Giant dealer sorts your problem .

 

[Evolution Stu]

I’m confident now that firmware will help. But that battery is the one supplied with the bike so if it’s now incompatible with the motor or RCOne firmwares, then GIANT have made it so with their OTA updates.

However, let’s also not forget that this bike and battery can do 20 trouble free rides with no problem also So it’s not a full incompatibility, it has to be a response to a situation that triggers the issue.

This isn’t a light use fair weather bike either…. When it works, it’s epic and I love it.


Here are last years Strava stats.

 

[Evolution Stu]

All off road too, we don’t do tarmac!

The fun we have on these bikes is the ONLY reason I preservere and still want to find a solution.
Some of these rides back with a dead bike are pretty grim… lol

 

[7869hodgy]

The fact that it would work for a while suggests it threw a fault code which if not rectified within a given time/ distance would shut down power. The only reasons for a bike's firmware to have such a function is to protect the motor ( either from hacking or from a potentially damaging or dangerous battery fault). .

This makes a lot of sense. My bike had a few “sudden offs” (see thread of same name) before it’s settled down (albeit a 625wh battery).

It was odd how after a 35kmh ride it sat in the shed for 6 weeks and when called upon it never powered up again with different light combinations on the controller being shown. I couldn’t get it to power on to do a system scan.

Maybe it’s cleverer that I thought, protecting its self. Just like “limp home” mode in a car…..but without the limp.

 

[Evolution Stu]

Maybe it’s cleverer that I thought, protecting its self. Just like “limp home” mode in a car…..but without the limp.

The shutdown is indeed the same as an LOS mode in a car without the LO part. Lol.
I wonder if the later motor is more susceptible to moisture issues than the earlier one. For sure it has more electronics in it.

Shame it’s not easy to swop motors trailside to asses where the fault lies that the BMS isn’t happy with.
We know it’s not controller as we have swopped those, i still think it’s humidity in the motors. would also explain why I have more issues in the winter than summer, even when I’ve not been even close to a puddle or rain.

 

[Mikerb]

The shutdown is indeed the same as an LOS mode in a car without the LO part. Lol.
I wonder if the later motor is more susceptible to moisture issues than the earlier one. For sure it has more electronics in it.

Shame it’s not easy to swop motors trailside to asses where the fault lies that the BMS isn’t happy with.
We know it’s not controller as we have swopped those, i still think it’s humidity in the motors. would also explain why I have more issues in the winter than summer, even when I’ve not been even close to a puddle or rain.

...except an intermittent short or hr disconnection would have very different symptoms and would not be an issue the motor would recognise as needing a shutdown since both effectively shut off power to the motor even if intermittent. The safety shut down is more likely incompatibility, excess heat, or excess current. I think the first of those is most likely in your case.

 

[Evolution Stu]

...except an intermittent short or hr disconnection would have very different symptoms and would not be an issue the motor would recognise as needing a shutdown since both effectively shut off power to the motor even if intermittent. The safety shut down is more likely incompatibility, excess heat, or excess current. I think the first of those is most likely in your case.

Evening Mike,
Help me to understand your train of thought here.

What kind of “incompatibility“ are you thinking there might be on the bike that allows it to run just fine for literally hundreds of miles in between faults?