Dengfu E22 Frame Thread

[Neeko DeVinchi]

Digging the cleaner cockpit

I may reevaluate as to getting another Eggrider V2

EggRider Bluetooth smart e-bike display with Android and iOS mobile apps

EggRider Bluetooth smart e-bike display with Android and iOS mobile apps

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[rtp]

One thing though is that the power change messed with my programming some making pedal feel a bit lighter if that makes sense? Current thinking is that I'll sell my stock battery and get another 52v one so then I can set up my programming for 52v via the computer not just via the display. But for now I can live with it.

Possible due to seeing slightly higher power per PAS level with the 52v battery?

In for update as you run both down a few times for range and low voltage comparison. (same basic batter for X2, although X2 Ludis are supposed to have higher amp BMS).

 

[Neeko DeVinchi]

In for update as you run both down a few times for range and low voltage comparison. (same basic batter for X2, although X2 Ludis are supposed to have higher amp BMS).

Interesting!!!
So my suspicions might be true. Although the packs are similar, the BMS's do vary.

@Mabman, great minds think alike. I've just managed to wrangle a 52v battery for testing .

 

[Mabman]

Interesting!!!
So my suspicions might be true. Although the packs are similar, the BMS's do vary.

@Mabman, great minds think alike. I've just managed to wrangle a 52v battery for testing .

Easy to check the BMS by removing the 4 screws holding on the dis charge end oover plate. I would be surprised it is not just the same 30A as my stock one. The problem going up in BMS Amps is also the BMS gets bigger and real estate in that case is what it is.

 

[Neeko DeVinchi]

True that @Mabman. However, functions within the BMS may vary (Cell Balancing, Temperature guage etc).

Dont get me wrong, these type of BMS (potential) variations exist in all sorts of battery packs (Shark packs, Tiger packs, Dolphin packs, Reention packs etc).

 

[rtp]

I'd expect the 'standard' Luna X2 to likely use the same battery pack as the Z1 if nothing else for commonality/one part. The X2 BMS remains claimed at 60A, although I assume it's peak - recall the claim of up to ~2kW in peak mode. Some X2 Ludi owners got 'the wrong BMS' and had cutouts so are getting a gratis battery (well, err..BMS) 'upgrade.'

Leaving tomorrow for a few weeks but it's been on the list to crack open my X2 Ludi battery to take a look, just haven't had a ton of free time as of yet, and haven't seen anyone with an X2 Ludi crack theirs open as of yet.. ?

 

[djol]

Digging the cleaner cockpit
I may reevaluate as to getting another Eggrider V2

EggRider Bluetooth smart e-bike display with Android and iOS mobile apps

EggRider Bluetooth smart e-bike display with Android and iOS mobile apps

shop.eggrider.com

Very neat cockpit Neeko.

I really love my Eggrider on my BBSHD / so neat and unobstrusive. I’m really going to miss it when my E10/m510 arrives - the move to Canbus really feels like a backwards step from a consumer point of view.

Is UART a big reason for your preference for the m620/600 motors?

 

[Neeko DeVinchi]

Very neat cockpit Neeko.

I really love my Eggrider on my BBSHD / so neat and unobstrusive. I’m really going to miss it when my E10/m510 arrives - the move to Canbus really feels like a backwards step from a consumer point of view.

Is UART a big reason for your preference for the m620/600 motors?

Its difficult to say at this stage. Granted, I can see why Bafang decided to implement CANBud protocols instead of UART.

My experience with the M500/M600 has been somewhat different compared to my experiences with the M400/M620. Its early days for the M510. But further testing is required.

Incidentally, I've just glanced the popular Dengfu E10 threads and I can already see members tethers being reached due to the lack of display options which are optimised for EMTB applications.

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Order the Bafang DP C11 E-Bike Display Victoria E-Classic - Black

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This display seems interesting for CANBus protocols so I'll reach out to Holland Bikes soon.

Nevertheless, Bafang technically never invented the UART protocol. Merely, they implemented it into their plug-n-play system. The move to CANBus 'prevents' third party developers from interacting with their systems (although, I am reminded that swapping out the stock controller has become fashionable for a lot of Bafang motor developers).

All-n-all, only time will tell as to how Bafang chooses to improve their system. But I do agree with you @djol. The display interfaces currently available (emtb styled), is a bit backwards. Hell, I do prefer running a 35mm bar and stem combo on my mid - long travel bikes. I'll be dammed if I have to revert back to a 31.8 just because they never thought to made a mounting bracket suitable for their generic DPC24 or DPC241.

 

[magazene]

@Neeko DeVinchi Im loving the build mate!! I have the same bike, almost identical build (i even have the same lizard skins chainstay protector ) i even bought my motor local for the same reasons!
I love the offset works headset! Im wondering what you ended up going for frame protection? I've never had a carbon bike and its making me nervous!

 

[Neeko DeVinchi]

@Neeko DeVinchi Im loving the build mate!! I have the same bike, almost identical build (i even have the same lizard skins chainstay protector ) i even bought my motor local for the same reasons!
I love the offset works headset! Im wondering what you ended up going for frame protection? I've never had a carbon bike and its making me nervous!

Apologies for the delay @magazene and thanks for your kind words.

In answer to your question, I ordered helicopter tape (2000mm x 200mm) in Matte. This was enough to cover the entire top tube, down tube, left upper chainstay, left lower chainstay, right upper chainstay, the bridge which connects both upper chainstays, the face of the headtube, battery cover and the entire seat tube.

I'll do my best to take pics to illustrate. But the main objective is to apply protection to areas where it would be prone to abrasions, marks, chips, rubbing, dirt build up etc.
E.g. I applied frame protection on the face of the headtube to prevent cable rub when the bars turn. Equally, I applaud frame protection on the entire top tube to prevent any rub from my knee pads onto the frame.

Naturally, I felt no need to use the helicopter tape on the right side lower chainstay as I am using a neoprene chainstay cover (technically I'm using two as I had to cut off extra to fully wrap the chainstay).

Sadly, I never filmed myself applying the helicopter tape but I assure you, YouTube videos exist of riders applying frame protection (Hell, I think Rob himself has a video doing just that).

Unfortunately at the time of me writing this, no dedicated frame protection kits exist for the Dengfu E22 frame. But provided you thoroughly clean the frame and set some time aside, measure and cut pieces for each part of the frame your choosing to wrap, and most importantly DONT RUSH, you'll get the hang of what's needed

I really should have filmed myself applying the frame protection. My bad!!!!

 

[Neeko DeVinchi]

So following from my earlier posts about the characteristics of the motor when programmed, I'm still tinkering with the motor tune in terms of balancing power and efficiency in conjunction with how I want this bike to ride.

Whilst I have so far been able to dial in the keep current and stop decay to ensure responsiveness as well as to have a bit of a motor over-run by amending the stop delay, I may further amend the start current. Granted, I'm reminded that I'm running the Dengfu E22 with 27.5" wheels. So 'through my own experience', I don't need to pull as much power compared to using 29" wheel.

For those who are confused with the above mentioned, essentially all bafang mid drive motors are gear driven. This means that the motors (by design), like to spin to achieve optimal performance. RPM's vary depending on the motor but opting to give the motor a mechanical advantage in terms of smaller chainring (32t) and wider cassette 11spd 11-50t) will equally improve your usage/mileage & range.

 

[magazene]

Apologies for the delay @magazene and thanks for your kind words.

In answer to your question, I ordered helicopter tape (2000mm x 200mm) in Matte. This was enough to cover the entire top tube, down tube, left upper chainstay, left lower chainstay, right upper chainstay, the bridge which connects both upper chainstays, the face of the headtube, battery cover and the entire seat tube.

I'll do my best to take pics to illustrate. But the main objective is to apply protection to areas where it would be prone to abrasions, marks, chips, rubbing, dirt build up etc.
E.g. I applied frame protection on the face of the headtube to prevent cable rub when the bars turn. Equally, I applaud frame protection on the entire top tube to prevent any rub from my knee pads onto the frame.

Naturally, I felt no need to use the helicopter tape on the right side lower chainstay as I am using a neoprene chainstay cover (technically I'm using two as I had to cut off extra to fully wrap the chainstay).

Sadly, I never filmed myself applying the helicopter tape but I assure you, YouTube videos exist of riders applying frame protection (Hell, I think Rob himself has a video doing just that).

Unfortunately at the time of me writing this, no dedicated frame protection kits exist for the Dengfu E22 frame. But provided you thoroughly clean the frame and set some time aside, measure and cut pieces for each part of the frame your choosing to wrap, and most importantly DONT RUSH, you'll get the hang of what's needed

I really should have filmed myself applying the frame protection. My bad!!!!

@Neeko DeVinchi Thanks for such a prompt and in depth response! i will order some of this tape, sounds like the perfect solution. you are right there are no dedicated frame protection kits that I could find either. I have done a ride wrap on my old stump jumper so I know how finike of a job it is, but it sounds very necessary with these carbon frames.
Anyways keep the updates coming, Its always good to see someone do such a thorough job of documenting there build, definitely helps amatures like me who seem to learn the hard way
oh and here's my E22, very similar, I've decided to go 29's as that's the wheels I had available, may look at a mullet in the future!

 

[Neeko DeVinchi]

Stick to what-ya-know!!!

Gotta love Raceface Aeffect cranks on the M620.

Reduced Q-factor and shorter than the stock M620 cranks.

 

[Mabman]

I'll be interested to see how you get on with the 52v vs. the 48v Neeko? Transformed the bike for me and now I am very happy with mine whereas before I was wondering if I'd made the right decision? Is your 52v 18650 or 21700?

 

[Neeko DeVinchi]

My 52v battery should be arriving sometime next week @Mabman.
It'll be interesting to see the difference for this frame/bike.

Similarly enough, I know some of you have asked me to do a comparison between the E10 and E22. I'll try to be as detailed as possible but let me know (anyone and everyone) your enquiries, concerns or questions.

One person pm'd me and asked about the anti-squat figures and leverage curve between the two due to the shock placement positios. Enquiries are being made so I'll update all of you as soon as I can.

 

[djol]

Stick to what-ya-know!!!
View attachment 84644
View attachment 84650

Gotta love Raceface Aeffect cranks on the M620.

View attachment 84648

Reduced Q-factor and shorter than the stock M620 cranks.
View attachment 84654
View attachment 84656

Neeko, are the M620 crank spindles a standard ISIS or similar, allowing you to fit the Raceface Aeffect cranks? Or are these still a proprietary Bafang type as for the M500/600/510? (I’ve only found these via Miranda on their Delta cranks.)

 

[Neeko DeVinchi]

Neeko, are the M620 crank spindles a standard ISIS or similar, allowing you to fit the Raceface Aeffect cranks? Or are these still a proprietary Bafang type as for the M500/600/510? (I’ve only found these via Miranda on their Delta cranks.)

The M620 uses isis cranks (similar to Bosch Gen 2 & 4, Yamaha and Brose).

The Q-factor varies from motor to motor when different cranks are used.

 

[Mabman]

The heart of an E22 frame is the Bafang G510/M620 motor. It is a big motor and likes to burn wh's if you are out by yourself riding at a sporting pace but when riding with a more EU/Class 1 compliant bike it uses alot less I have found. In order to do longer than 20 mile rides at a sporting pace I have found the need for a second battery is necessary. The battery won't fit on top of the down tube because it hits the shock so I got a Stasher top tube bag and it fits the battery just right after removing the insulation inside. The bags are meant to carry beer cans.....

For daily use the onboard battery is fine for the most part but I have some longer gravel logging road adventures planned that will require the second battery. I wasn't that fond of using a backpack to carry it and the cost of the ones that are rated to carry batteries with back protection are very expensive and for once in awhile use not worth it to me. Plus the real tree camo motif carries well also.....

The bag doesn't interfere with my legs at all and the weight up high for road riding is fine. So now that I have the ability to have 1500wh's of 21700 cells on board let the long range games begin!

 

[Neeko DeVinchi]

The heart of an E22 frame is the Bafang G510/M620 motor. It is a big motor and likes to burn wh's if you are out by yourself riding at a sporting pace but when riding with a more EU/Class 1 compliant bike it uses alot less I have found. In order to do longer than 20 mile rides at a sporting pace I have found the need for a second battery is necessary. The battery won't fit on top of the down tube because it hits the shock so I got a Stasher top tube bag and it fits the battery just right after removing the insulation inside. The bags are meant to carry beer cans.....

View attachment 84947

For daily use the onboard battery is fine for the most part but I have some longer gravel logging road adventures planned that will require the second battery. I wasn't that fond of using a backpack to carry it and the cost of the ones that are rated to carry batteries with back protection are very expensive and for once in awhile use not worth it to me. Plus the real tree camo motif carries well also.....

The bag doesn't interfere with my legs at all and the weight up high for road riding is fine. So now that I have the ability to have 1500wh's of 21700 cells on board let the long range games begin!

Inventive!!!
Not a bad solution for a touring set up.
I have been successful in placing the stock battery in a evoc ebike dedicated backpack. But I'm aware that some people find carrying a spare battery in a backpack troublesome.

Between me and you @Mabman, I'm still holding out hope that we'll be introduced with a range extender which could comfortably fit into the bottle cage.

Keep up the mods dude

 

[Mabman]

It is a stop gap because the best case scenario I can see is to just get a bigger battery made for the downtube, like a 20-25ah one and make a new cover plate that has depth enough for the extra cells and fits as stock in the end. Probably just do away with the case and go sideways with the 21700's like a guy on here did for his E10 build and attaching it with strapping off the inside bolt tabs. I thought about cutting the bottom of the case to keep the stock fitments but at that point it became kind of like why have the extra weight of the case.....work in progress for sure and probably take awhile especially for the plate cause I don't do that type of work and would have to farm it out.

 

[Neeko DeVinchi]

E10 -V- E22
Initial impressions
​

So I have been asked by a lot of people to do this comparison. Whilst each person who has pm'd me on Instagram, EBR, Facebook and this forum have asked for specific details between the two along with 'which is better?'. It is my intention to provide the information only so that any of you can make your own informed decision.

In addition, I acknowledge that those on EBR who have pm'd me, have done so to ascertain whether they should buy either,

The Luna Z1 (E22) or,

the Luna X2 (E10).

PLEASE BARE IN MIND, that I have noticed variants of the E10. Most notably,

The onboard charging facilities seem to be located in different places. My E10 (which for the purposes of this post, we'll refer to as E10v1), is located below the rear shock/on top of the motor mount.

Whereas on the Luna x2 (as well as other ebikes which bare resemblance to the E10), have the charging port located on the left side of the seat tube/above the motor.

Because of this discrepancy, I cant vouch as to whether my findings are applicable to the Luna x2 (which we'll refer to this variant as E10v2). I say this because I don't have the luxury of thoroughly examining that variant. Further discrepancies may exist (aalthough the geometry table seems the same-ish!!!).

With that out of the way, let's dive into this.

Similarities​

Frame
As many have suspected, their are similarities between the two.

On the left is the E22 and on the right, is the E10v1
The E22 on the left is a large (the biggest frame they offer at the time of this post) The E10v1 is an xl.
For the purposes of the above image, take note that both are using 27.5" wheels (but both can run 29". This brings us nicely to the first notable similarity.

Both frames are using the exact same rear ends, linkage and yoke.

This means that regardless of which frame you buy/build up, they both use the same:-
Bearings
Mech hanger
Axle
Linkage
Cable grommet
Bushes

Whilst I do recognise that more options exist aftermarket for the E10, hopefully these afternoon vendors will consider altering their advertising to reflect 'compatible with E22'.

Another notable similarity would be that both use 31.6 seatpost.

As you can see on the large frame E22, i have no problem running a slammed 210 One Up dropper post.

Naturally, the xl E10v1 can run a slammed 210 One Up dropper.
Take note as to the saddle rail position between the two. It may be difficult to determine however, both bikes are using the same Giant Contact Forward saddles in different colours. The xl has a 21" seat tube vs the large has a seat tube of 20".

Electrics
Both are capable of housing the same battery within the downtube.

Technically, the battery bay is near identical in terms of key lock, battery mount, battery door, power switch etc. However,

I am aware that (subject to which motor you use on the E10v1 or v2) the 52v battery may not work. The M600 has no problems running it. The M500 (as I suspected) does not work.

Unclear as to the M510 at the time of me writing this but I'll update one of the many E10 threads with that information

special thanks to @Mabman who ultimately inspired me to also buy a 52v battery for testing. Indeed, his contribution to this thread has been most appreciative

Differences
​

Yes guys and girls, their are a few and I suspect this is where a lot of you will be eagerly reading.

Frame
So as you can see, the front triangles are different (in more ways than one).

Let's start off with the obvious, rear shock placement and sizing.

As I've stated before, the E22 uses a metric standard rear shock length of 230mm and can only provide up to 150mm with a stroke length of 60mm (again, it cannot be one-stroked).

The shock mounts from underneath the downtube which material has been used to reinforce the mounting area. I'll refrain from giving my opinion as to why a metric shock length of 230mm has been used for a 150mm travel emtb when these rear shocks are typically reserved for the Allmountain/enduro/long travel emtb's (correct me if I'm wrong). However, I have sent an email to confirm whether the E22 (by design) is rated for the use of a coil. As soon as I get a response, I'll update the thread.

However compared to the E10v1 (and v2) which uses a metric shock standard of 210mm (and ultimately gives only 150mm of rear wheel travel), the shock mounts on the downtube with more reinforced material protruding. By design, I would suspect that the E10 is more rated for a coil shock but I'm only gauging this by feel and from observations I've seen by others in terms of spec components.

Again, I have ssnt an email as to whether the E22 can be ran or is optimised for a coil. I'll update the thread once I've got a response

The second different would be the weight.

No picture could ultimately emphasize this unless I balance each bike off scales

Ultimately, the E22 is heavier. Mine weights in at 27kg (26.86 to be exact with pedals and clean). Whilst many have said that I could drop 'some' weight by opting for different tyres, suspension etc.

Please excuse the fact that the E10v1 is poorly spec'd but hypothetically, pretend that both bikes were spec'd equally. The E10v1 would be lighter. Recall my reference to the protruding material as to the shock mount on the E10. Technically, the E22 frame (on its own without motor) is lighter than the E10v1.
Nevertheless, the true crooks to the weight penalty between the two frames falls to the motors.

Electrics
It should be painfully obvious that the E22 is only compatible with the M620 motor (regardless of which communication protocol it uses).

I'm not too sure if I've mentioned this before but the M620 motor does come in a variety of options. All motors use the same mounting bracket and hardware. However (subject to the generation), internal components as well as the controllers do vary. The clutch, main planetary gear, crank spindle, outer bearings and some other pieces remain prevalent throughout the longstanding run time of the M620. However, outer casing material, secondary gear, controller amongst other bits, usually indicates which variant of the M620 a person has. By contrast throughout the runtime of the M620, the weigh has fluctuated depending on the variant. Mine, weights 5.3kg. Their is one variant which is lighter and the majority are usually heavier.

Nevertheless, the motor does weight the frame down. Any thoughts of 'assuming' that carbon frame M620 ebike constitutes to weight savings over alloy frame M620 ebikes is gravely mistaken. Take it from someone who has recently had to play the game of hike-a-bike with it.

Compared to the E10v1, it really doesn't matter which motor you equip to the frame (M500/M600/M510). The system weight remains less compared to the E22.

But (and their is a but)

clearly, the cockpit is better looking and more functional. Subjective option, yes I know!!!

Especially when compared to the E10v1. Take note that at this point, I am forced to use 31.8mm handlebars compared to the E22 with its 820mm 35mm Bontrager Line handlebars with a 12mm rise. Compared to my 810mm 31.8 answer handlebars with 8mm rise.

Oh!!!!, it would appear that I'm only allowed to upload up to 25 pics per post. Damnnn!!!

Anywho, its probably for the best that I wrap this post up now and continue it another day. I imagine many of you are asking about geometry. We'll come to that. After I've installed my angle headset into the E10v1 (took a while for me to find one after measuring the insertion depth for both upper and lower cups). As it stands (and I will be honest with you all), the E22 in terms of geometry, components and versatility, has a clear advantage of the E10v1. In fact (otherthan the weight), it has had a clear advantage over the E10v1 for every test I've come up with. The E10v1 in terms of reach, is a tad bit longer. But the handling of E22 (my build of the E22), is far superior. And this is coming from myself and 5 other riders which we've literally spent the entire day thrashing the bikes around. And yes, we did race them. I wont tell you which bike won.....because you know which bikr won!!

But I digress (removing my subjective opinion to one side), I'll keep you all posted pertaining to the geometry once I've built up the E10v1 better.

No video footage for this post sadly guys and girls (forget my gopro). But theirs always next weekend

 

[Ghost_]

Hello guys, congrats to Neeko for this excellent thread about the E22 frame. I've beem riding bikes for several year but this year decided to get into the EMTBs. I consider to buy the E22 and have some questions about the frame geometry.

For the front I was thinking to use a Manitou Dorado 29'' I have laying around. According to the specs of the fork in 29'' the Dorado if adjusted to 180mm travel has an Axle to Crown distance of 579mm and in 190mm has an a2c of 589mm. According to the plans of this frame the a2c distance is 571mm so I was thinking the in 180mm of travel I won't ruin the geometry that much. Plus if I use an angled headset as Neeko uses I could also use 190mm too.

For the rear wheel I was thinking to use a 27.5'' and go with a mullet setup.

What do you guys think has anyone tried an 180mm or a mullet setup similar to this?

 

[Neeko DeVinchi]

Hi @Ghost_, many thanks for your kind words.

I have been asked by some about mulleting the E22.

From what I've noticed, the E22's BB height is lower than the E10 when ran with a 27.5 rear wheel.

Whilst this may seem odd considering that both frames use the same rear ends, I am reminded that my E22 uses a 2° angle headset which has radically improved the stock geometry.

Being honest Ghost_, going 180mm up front would be overkill.

The manitou forks can be adjusted internally to increase or decrease travel. Whilst I'm only basing my experiences with the Mattoc Pro, I suspect the Dorado forks are similar to internally adjust.

I will say this,

The seat tube angle on my E22 ran with a 170mm travel fork and 2° angle headset feels good as my saddle is more over the bottom bracket (motor area). Which means that I'm in a much comfortable climbing position and I'm not forced to bring my weight forward.

But I'll experiment with a mullet setup and provide the revised geometry figures for consideration

 

[Ghost_]

@Neeko DeVinchi thank you for the very detailed reply! Indeed, as I see in the pics above looks like the E10 BB is higher than in E22.

Yes, you are correct the Dorado is internally adjustable. You can set it for 180,190 and 203mm of travel. Checking the fork specs might be a double crown but the a2c height is not very different than a single crown. With a 27.5'' wheel for example if you set it for 180mm of travel it's 559mm.

It's a bit of overkill. One of the reasons I was thinking about it is because I am a heavy guy 95kg and the EMTB's are lot heavier than MTB's plus I already have it so I am a bit curious how it will perform.

Right now you have 29'' front and rear?

If I can see well from the pics your rear shock is the FOX DPX2? Are you happy with it?

I am in search of a rear shock for the EMTB

 

[Neeko DeVinchi]

@Neeko DeVinchi thank you for the very detailed reply! Indeed, as I see in the pics above looks like the E10 BB is higher than in E22.

Yes, you are correct the Dorado is internally adjustable. You can set it for 180,190 and 203mm of travel. Checking the fork specs might be a double crown but the a2c height is not very different than a single crown. With a 27.5'' wheel for example if you set it for 180mm of travel it's 559mm.

It's a bit of overkill. One of the reasons I was thinking about it is because I am a heavy guy 95kg and the EMTB's are lot heavier than MTB's plus I already have it so I am a bit curious how it will perform.

Right now you have 29'' front and rear?

If I can see well from the pics your rear shock is the FOX DPX2? Are you happy with it?

I am in search of a rear shock for the EMTB

I do appreciate your kind words about the spec choice on the E22 @Ghost_. Truth be told, the build simply used spare components I had lying around. The Dpx2 came off my Status 160 which is now running a Fox x2.

As it stands, my E22 seems balanced due to the Fox 36 fork along with the revised geometry due to the angle headset. It responds relatively quickly in terms of line choice at both high and low speed.

However, you have raised an interesting point which I hadn't thought about concerning riding weight limit. Whilst I will need to whip out my scales to verify what I weight when fully kitted, I suspect I'm not far off your weight of 96k. Granted, it's handled 7 foot huck to flats with ease and nothing snapped or came loose. But you don't need me to tell you that the E22 can't 'defy the laws of gravity' .

I'm running 245psi in the DPX2 with 2 volume spacers (bare in mind that my dpx2 is 230x62.5 so my sag point is different because of the extra length of stroke). It feels supportive when charging through rock gardens. And one aspect which I've come to appreciate from the E22, is its ability to rail through corners confidently (only the Whyte E150v1 has ever given that same feeling).

Tight switch-back bends is an inherent weakness due to the 458mm chainstay length. It does take some getting use too!!. But this is where the revised geometry comes into play. By raking out the fork with the angle headset without altering the seat tube angle, I am more able to flick the rear end (or carve the rear end), more easily than the over-forked E10 as my seat tube angle puts me more rear-wards. But I'll install the new headset into the E10v1 and continue testing to see if that improves handling.

But so far, I have been impressed with the E22 (one could argue that it's the 'turning point' for the M620, finally ending up on a frame with workable geometry......with a bit of tinkering).

 

[Ghost_]

I do appreciate your kind words about the spec choice on the E22 @Ghost_. Truth be told, the build simply used spare components I had lying around. The Dpx2 came off my Status 160 which is now running a Fox x2.

As it stands, my E22 seems balanced due to the Fox 36 fork along with the revised geometry due to the angle headset. It responds relatively quickly in terms of line choice at both high and low speed.
View attachment 85318
However, you have raised an interesting point which I hadn't thought about concerning riding weight limit. Whilst I will need to whip out my scales to verify what I weight when fully kitted, I suspect I'm not far off your weight of 96k. Granted, it's handled 7 foot huck to flats with ease and nothing snapped or came loose. But you don't need me to tell you that the E22 can't 'defy the laws of gravity' .

I'm running 245psi in the DPX2 with 2 volume spacers (bare in mind that my dpx2 is 230x62.5 so my sag point is different because of the extra length of stroke). It feels supportive when charging through rock gardens. And one aspect which I've come to appreciate from the E22, is its ability to rail through corners confidently (only the Whyte E150v1 has ever given that same feeling).

Tight switch-back bends is an inherent weakness due to the 458mm chainstay length. It does take some getting use too!!. But this is where the revised geometry comes into play. By raking out the fork with the angle headset without altering the seat tube angle, I am more able to flick the rear end (or carve the rear end), more easily than the over-forked E10 as my seat tube angle puts me more rear-wards. But I'll install the new headset into the E10v1 and continue testing to see if that improves handling.

But so far, I have been impressed with the E22 (one could argue that it's the 'turning point' for the M620, finally ending up on a frame with workable geometry......with a bit of tinkering).

Thanks a lot @Neeko DeVinchi for your so detailed replies they are really helpful. Chainstay looks quite long at 458mm. Does this make the chain about 130 links..?

 

[Neeko DeVinchi]

Thanks a lot @Neeko DeVinchi for your so detailed replies they are really helpful. Chainstay looks quite long at 458mm. Does this make the chain about 130 links..?

I'm running a Sram 12 speed GX chain with 126 links with a 12 speed Shimano SLX M7100 derailleur but with a shimano SLX 11 speed shifter M7000 and an 11 speed sunrace 11-50 cassette.

A bit of a bodge but works just as well.

Although, I'm not running the stock M620 130bcd chainring/spider.

The chainring/spider combo I'm using is for the Bafang M420 motor Spoiler alert everyone, it is compatible!!!!

Thi swap has indeed dropped the weight of the motor substantially, thereby giving the M620 a mechanical advantage when programmed to adhere to UK/European eapc legislation.

In addition, most 130bcd chainrings aren't optimised for 11/12 speed chains (especially the 38t chainrings). Whereas the M420's one peice chainring/spider is optimised for 11 speed.

I am aware of the Christini chainring which is also compatible with the M620 which changes the bcd from 130 to 104. @Mabman uses this on his Luna Z1 (Dengfu E22). I'm sure Mabman will share his experiences with the Christini chainring in due course along with his programming of the M620.

But to answer your question @Ghost_, a 126 link 12 speed chain seems to work (I'd rather not comment at this stage as to the longevity, but I'll happily share my findings).

 

[Mabman]

The 12spd SRAM GX drivetrain that came as stock on my E22 bike worked ok out of the box and the only thing I changed right away out of personal prefererence was to swap shifter to a grip shift. I am however sourcing an 11spd system that will be cheaper over time to maintain and replace as needed that was recommended by a friend and will report on it as it develops.

I soon realized that the M620 has its best power when an active spin is used. I don't use any type of meter but I would guess that 90ish rpm is a good guess as to where I normally ride. In order to make better use of the middle of the cassette I switched to a 36t chainring as @Neeko DeVinchi says I got the Christini adapter to accommodate this and it works just fine although a bit $$. I also got some 155mm Miranda cranks initially for ground clearance issues but they fit well with the high rpm cadence also. I think that all FS eBikes should ship with shorter than 170mm cranks.

So many factors however are in play in regards to any bikes potential that it is hard to generalize what will work best for every rider? My weight, level of fitness and the terrain I ride in has led me to set up my bike to suit MY needs. The beauty of the more open source/DIY platform of the E22/M620 UART system bikes is that they have the ability to set up to meet an individuals needs. I am more impulsive than most and less apt to obsess over the numbers before making a purchase but I do enough research beforehand and enough testing after purchase to end up with a satisfying result.

It is a shame that Bafang is going with CANBUS over UART going forward because UART does provide for enough programming ability to tailor the M620 to any riders preference from mild to wild. It does seem that they still are producing the UART version however as LUNA is taking pre-orders on their next shipment of Z1/E22 bikes and still advertising that feature. I have no knowledge to share about how to get ahold of one over the other however it is an important part of the puzzle.

 

[Neeko DeVinchi]

So in accordance with everyone's wishes,

I have given the Dengfu E10v1 the same preferential treatment. Just like the E22.

Many thanks to Superstar Components for their 2°angle headset.

Enquiries through the Dengfu E10 threads revealed that the Works Components headset does not fit with these frames due to the insertion length requirements.

As you can see, both upper headset cup

and lower headcup cup sit flush in the headtube.

Apologies to Superstar Components for not using the Slackerizer stem cap.

the Rockshox Lyrik rc's were recycled from my second Kenevo Expert. Hence the SWAT cap used in stead.

PLEASE NOTE FOR ANY NEW DENGFU E10 XL BUYERS, this hack is not applicable for the newer E10v2's.

Referring to my previous post regarding discrepancies (or improvements depending on your point of view),

The headtube length for the newer Dengfu E10v2's in XL are now 145mm.

E10 GEOMETRY

E10 GEOMETRY

www.dengfubike.com

This of course is reflected on their website.

THE E10v1's IN XL HAVE A HEADTUBE LENGTH OF 135MM.

Granted, their is a way to amend the headtube angle without over-forking the E10v2's.

Cane Creek Angleset ZS44 Tapered Headset

The Cane Creek Angleset Tapered ensures that you can easily alter your ride to several different setups ranging from steep to lax the Angleset has it and adjusts flawlessly.

www.leisurelakesbikes.com

But I do recognise that the taller riders are paying more to reap the benefits of adjusting their headtube angles.
I WOULD ADVISE THAT YOU CHECK OUT THE MANY THREADS FOR THE DENGFU E10 FOR RESOLUTIONS AND CREATIVE IDEAS.

Anywho, getting back on topic.

I'll get a better idea as to how they compare this weekend. I'm somewhat thankful that the headset has tweaked the geometry so that my seat tube angle isn't as far behind the bottom bracket (or motor).

Although, my saddle rail position is still quite forward.

Still, you take your victories where you can!!

Same thing goes with the stem and handlebars. Huge shout out to both @Waynemarlow & @thaeber for the hack for running 35mm bar with the existing display.

It has helped knowing that I can run my Raceface Atlas 820mm handlebars.

Its just a pity I can't run the controller further outboard. Oh well, take ya victories where ya can!!!!

I'll measure the geometry of the bike shortly. But similar to the E22, my default headtube angle when ran with a 160mm travel fork should be 64°

In theory.

But I'll keep you guys posted as to my findings

Definitely missing the water bottle cage provisions

 

[Mabman]

A little update on my post above regarding a modded cover plate to allow for more cells as well as the use of 21700 cells which I am convinced work better than 18650's for the G510 after using them for awhile now. Also I feel that 52v is a better voltage for the G510. Probably for the E10/M600 as well but I don't have a test mule for that theory.

As I alluded to I am not at all set up to make the plate and I thought about getting one 3d printed but I don't even know anyone that is into that....so I had the bright idea to contact Ben Rides who monitors this site as a rep for DengFu to see if they had any interest in making them? After a few back and forths I wasn't getting much love for the idea but I also felt like he wasn't totally getting my drift either. In the end he said he was passing it on to the powers that be. He did mention that they have had requests to make a dual battery frame of some sort but to my mind that is not a better option, at least for trail use, than one that just has more wh's.

The one thing I did find out from my battery contact was that it is totally possible to do what they refer to as a soft case 21700 cell battery with the cells oriented so as to be perpendicular to the down tube which will actually result in more cells allowed in general as well as the ability to use a BMS of an even higher Amp rating than the 40A mine currently use. I personally don't need that option but those that are using hopped up controllers now or in the future might appreciate that feature. But what does seem like a good idea is a Smart/Bluetooth BMS and that is also a viable option that is not available for use in the stock case due to their larger size in general. Also it is possible to maintain the stock discharge system so that stock cased batteries can still be used as needed.

I let the air out of my fork and measured the distance between the tire and the downtube and measured the difference and concluded that if the plate could be max 26mm deeper it would allow for plenty of clearance. Being that 21700 cells are 21mm that means that at least one more layer of cells could be added which by my calculations should result in at least a 25ah battery possible.

Not sure if there is any interest in this project but if there is perhaps dropping a line to Ben showing interest may help it come to be? If they do end up making it at some point the battery design will be fairly easy but not going to do anything about that until the plate is made.