Wrecking rims

[1Squadr0n]

Please help me.

I am on my third rim in a year, and I need to replace this one now too after finding two very large dents today. I had been wondering why it wasn't holding air....

I destroyed the factory rim (can't remember what it was off the top of my head). And I've put irretrievable dents into two Halo Vortex in a row. Between these events I've also had to true at least twice from some quite extreme wobbles.

I am super fed up messing around with wheels. I run Cushcore already (actually love the handling, not just the added protection).

Bike is E150RS, 27.5.

I'm an aggressive rider, but not a brute. I am sympathetic toward my equipment. But I am on the large side at 110kgs/6ft1ish and this is obviously a contributing factor. I've always been rough on wheels but I think the added weight of the eeb plus maybe the additional torque, is too much for your average burly rim!

So the question is! Should I go carbon? If so, what? Any experience people can share would be welcomed.

 

[dobbyhasfriends]

Have you considered cush core?

 

[1Squadr0n]

Have you considered cush core?

See above.

I appreciate it's a long post and late on Satruday night (it is here anyway) so I'll let you off!

 

[RustyIron]

So the question is! Should I go carbon? If so, what?

Yes, I think you should go with carbon. Every aluminum rim I've ever run has ended up dented and needing truing. My carbon rims have always gotten dinged up from rocks that get kicked up, but have never been severely damaged as a result.

Right now I'm running two sets. The first is Ibis i35's. They're fine, but early on I had some warranty issues. That was years ago, but there are so many other options, that I wouldn't seek them out.

The other set I'm running is Santa Cruz Reserve 30's. They've got some dings, but otherwise are perfect. I wouldn't hesitate to buy them again. Also, they're guaranteed forever.

The two other brands that I'd consider if I was in the market are Enve and We Are One.

 

[Mteam]

So the question is! Should I go carbon? If so, what? Any experience people can share would be welcomed.

As a serial rim dinger myself, I would say no way should you go carbon.

I've tried a few different carbon rims and destroyed them all, they just end up costing far more than alu rims to replace, and they have a very harsh feeling ride.

I've had good experience with the dtswiss hx1501 wheels that came on my current bike, so far they have stayed ding and dent free.

 

[James_C]

sounds like you need more air pressure perhaps?

 

[1Squadr0n]

Thanks for all the replies!

A good friend has been on carbon for ever and swears by it. Also a hard rider, although a good deal lighter... he likes DT Swiss and Hunt.

Santa Cruz lifetime warranty sounds appealing.

I think the dream is DT Swiss HXC range. Something like this... DT Swiss HXC 1200 Spline Rear Wheel 27,5" Hybrid Boost black | Bikester.co.uk

Not cheap! But if I'm going to do this surely now is good a time as ever? Black Friday deals... Mavic cf wheels are 50/60 off at chainreaction although there doesn't appear to be much stock.

Pressures is a good shout... I tend to run between 20/23 and 22/25. On cushcore, with tough/dh casings.

I think half the problem is just a handful of local hits which I should probably ride differently. It's not partularly rocky around here but it is rooty, and some of those roots are in places where I am landing and gapping to (or attempting to gap to!). It's just that I never used to have any significant/frequent wheel challenges with those particular features before the eeb, so I am loathed to slow down or not attempt the gap etc to account for the extra weight.

Also need to work out what I need in terms of dish and cassette as I could easily buy the wrong thing!!

 

[Jimbo Vills]

Better wheels will no doubt help, but you haven’t mentioned what pressures your’e running as mention above??

 

[1Squadr0n]

Better wheels will no doubt help, but you haven’t mentioned what pressures your’e running as mention above??

I think we posted pretty much at the same time. I tend to run between 20/23 and 22/25. So yeah, it's a factor. I do run Cushcore but appreciate it's only added and not total protection!

 

[1Squadr0n]

As a serial rim dinger myself, I would say no way should you go carbon.

I've tried a few different carbon rims and destroyed them all, they just end up costing far more than alu rims to replace, and they have a very harsh feeling ride.

I've had good experience with the dtswiss hx1501 wheels that came on my current bike, so far they have stayed ding and dent free.

Yes a lot of things point to the DT Swiss HX series.....

 

[Jimbo Vills]

I think we posted pretty much at the same time. I tend to run between 20/23 and 22/25. So yeah, it's a factor. I do run Cushcore but appreciate it's only added and not total protection!

thats not major low from what I understand from others Running cushcore however as a heavier rider at 110kg I’d say that’s still low if you are hitting gaps and riding aggressively

 

[1Squadr0n]

thats not major low from what I understand from others Running cushcore however as a heavier rider at 110kg I’d say that’s still low if you are hitting gaps and riding aggressively

Thanks for the feedback. I think I have steadfastly been refusing to consider pressures but I should probably try upping them a bit..



Is buying a built wheel easy in terms of knowing what I want? It's 27.5 and I have SRAM Eagle 12.

 

[Gary]

I tend to run between 20/23 and 22/25. On cushcore, with tough/dh casings.

Yeah that's far too low for a big boy.
At those pressures your relying on the cushcore instead of pressure for sidewall support. And you won't actually be doing yourself any favours for edge grip either.

 

[mehukatti]

Meganorris Hamburger is a good insert for ebikes and can be bought from Pole Bicycles online store. It's also cheaper than Cush Core the last time I checked. Although maybe I'm biased as a Finn...

 

[Gary]

I think half the problem is just a handful of local hits which I should probably ride differently. It's not partularly rocky around here but it is rooty, and some of those roots are in places where I am landing and gapping to (or attempting to gap to!). It's just that I never used to have any significant/frequent wheel challenges with those particular features before the eeb, so I am loathed to slow down or not attempt the gap etc to account for the extra weight

The extra weight of the bike alone shouldn't be a major issue if you set up your tyre and suspension pressures correctly. but the large majority of the Ebike riders I see out on the trails massively lack finesse. Whether any of them ever had any before owning an Ebike I do not know so couldn't comment on whether they're struggling with the extra 20lb but what I do know is I'm just as smooth on my 50lb Eeb as I am on my 30lb carbon Enduro bike. But I do also have to alter my input between them.

 

[Konanige]

As a big boy myself, definitely up those pressures. Carbon rims will seem to be faring better but if they do go its gonna be catastrophic and no amount of warranty will get you out of A&E any quicker!!

 

[1Squadr0n]

I think I'm going to have to try increasing my pressures then.

I do take the point that cf has a different failure mode. But I've spent hundreds replacing alu with alu. I think it might be time to try cf. If it lasts me two years it will have paid for itself plus eliminates hassle of having the bike repeatedly out of action.

Just need to work out what to buy and take advantage of deals around at the mo.

 

[Gary]

Except. You could have saved yourself hundreds by simply running appropriate pressure in your rear tyre.
Carbon won't last either if you don't change your ways.

 

[1Squadr0n]

Except. You could have saved yourself hundreds by simply running appropriate pressure in your rear tyre.
Carbon won't last either if you don't change your ways.

True and absolutely worth pointing out. I will definitely experiment with higher pressures. But I am also just bending rims on a regular basis, which I believe would be harder to do with a good cf rim?

 

[Pascal Funk]

DT EX471 or 511 in aluminium....The fastest in the world use them

 

[Gary]

Depends. Really.
Who is building your wheels and with what spokes and spoke count?
If I was your weight I'd def be upping spoke count from the standard 32. And I'm a far smoother rider by the sounds of it .

Somewhat unbelievably Ive actually seen a bent carbon rim. I'd always assumed that carbon would crack, delaminatr or ah hatter rather than bend out of shape. But no. Not this time. The rider who's wheel it was is 5 stone lighter than you. He got a replacement under warranty but I rebuilt his wheel with an alloy rim and stronger spokes instead of the carbon replacement and super light spokes it came with and its still going strong.
Light spokes are pretty common with carbon wheels in an attempt to make the wheel less stiff.

 

[steve_sordy]

Danny MacAskill tests Santa Cruz Reserve CF wheels.

 

[Jimbo Vills]

True and absolutely worth pointing out. I will definitely experiment with higher pressures. But I am also just bending rims on a regular basis, which I believe would be harder to do with a good cf rim?

the cushore id imagine is stoping the dinks, absorbing the impact but spreading the load, hence the bent rims. As said above pressure should help but as Gary points out you may simply need stronger wheels for your riding.

 

[Jimbo Vills]

Danny MacAskill tests Santa Cruz Reserve CF wheels.

that’s great mate. But he’s prob 65 kilos. So irrelevant to OP’s issue imo

 

[steve_sordy]

that’s great mate. But he’s prob 65 kilos. So irrelevant to OP’s issue imo

I agree about the weight difference, but not that it is irrelevant. Who puts their rims through that treatment? I found it to be a convincing demo of their robustness. Does any other rim manufacturer dare to do that?

 

[Jimbo Vills]

I agree about the weight difference, but not that it is irrelevant. Who puts their rims through that treatment? I found it to be a convincing demo of their robustness. Does any other rim manufacturer dare to do that?

not huge difference to running too low pressures tho really is it?
Yes the tyre will stop chips and stuff but impact is similar if running next to no pressures that some ride on…

plus I bet they wouldn’t do the same test with a 120kg rider.

but you are right, it’s an impressive demo

 

[1Squadr0n]

Some great posts, thoughts and info, thanks very much.

Who is building my wheels? Whoever I think I can trust! I'm not experienced in wheel buying. So far it's been the lbs (who seem pretty good) and "please build me a bullet proof wheel". Their interpretation has been it's fine to use the factory hub, and use Halo Vortex. The Halo is 33mm internal diameter, I believe.
Right now, I am looking at built wheels online. I am assuming, rightly or wrong, that a built DT Swiss is going to be dependable. Maybe naively....
Who builds the wheels sold at places like Wiggle, Chainreaction etc? And the place I posted above? Anyone know? I had assumed the manufacturer but maybe not??

Am I best to find a good local wheel builder? I'm pretty certain I'd find one of those at MB Cyclery in Haslemere Surrey (UK) which is not too far away from me. Not my lbs but a solid bunch I think.

Spoke count? The Halo is 32 hole. It's not something I'd thought about but I'm going to have a look now at spoke count for some of the contenders.

.. on the subject of contenders, I've got a great shortlist now thanks mostly to all the feedback on here!

The theory about Cushcore spreading the load and morphing what might have been a dent into a warp/bend is interesting and I think there will be some truth to that. To my mind again, that is an argument in favour of cf. And it has led me think quite deeply.. maybe too deeply!! But bear with me for point 2 below...!

Someone commented they didn't think the added weight of the eeb would be enough to tip the wheels over the edge into the realms of failing on a regular basis. Starting to agree, on reflection. I added Cushcore to my life when I bought the ebike a year and a half ago. I think two things have happened:

1. In some places I am obviously going faster on the ebike than I would have done before. More speed equals bigger hits. Also, it has opened up some gaps and jumps in the trails that I wouldn't have been able to get the speed for before. Plus, the Cushcore increased my confidence and consequently, speed again. That is as much to do with the damping effect it adds to the tyre in cornering, as protection from dents and dings. The way it tracks in cornering over rough terrain is amazing. Regardless, the common denominator is clearly more speed!!!

2. Having reduced my pressures running Cushcore, I am relying on it somewhat for cornering support in place of air pressure, as pointed out by Gary. I am now wondering if this means that direct forces are being applied more locally on the rim as a result of the physical contact between external force and rim, as created by the insert. Without Cushcore, those forces (assuming I've not gone through the tyre and am now leaning on the rim) are spread and governed via the tyre carcass and internal air pressure. Between those factors, I can see how an extreme bending force under hard riding is actually spread across the *whole rim*, instead of just an area local to the force applied....

Equipment notwithstanding, I'm still getting faster and more accomplished after thirty something years of riding. I wonder if I am now simply asking too much of any mtb wheel? Can I buy a DT Swiss HXC 1200 or 1501 and corner as hard as I like? Or do I need to have some restraint? It's not just landings/impacts that are the problem.

Am I over thinking this? Probably!

Anyway...

Thanks again for all the feedback. I am now not 100% decided on cf after all! But I need to make a decision soon as the effing bike is out of action again for something like the seventh time in around a year!!


Any thoughts on target internal diameter? Looking at 35mm wheels.

 

[Gary]

Any thoughts on target internal diameter? Looking at 35mm wheels.

Depends what tyre width you're going to be using.
You say you're using DH tyres though. 25-30mm is pretty much the ideal rim width for 2.5 DH tyres.

If you're riding hard at your weight you're going to need DH strength rims and preferably 36 spokes (which will require a new hub) and avoid alloy nipples. Simply put, a higher spoke count builds a stronger, more durable, stiffer wheel which will withstand side impact loading better than a wheel with a lower spoke count.
Building for you I'd probably go with plain guage 2.0 spokes as well. (but I'm not going to go into the positives and negatives between PG and DB spokes here). I'd also avoid any silly hub flange designs. just normal flanges for J-bend spokes.

Very few carbon mtb rims come with more than 32 eyelets and quite a few have just 28

You are overthinking things a bit. but fair enough. off the shelf wheels are generally machine laced and built with the more expensive ones hand finished/checked. Many larger bike shops (even online ones) have a dedicated wheelbuilder to build wheels for customers. All decent smaller LBS should have at least one decent wheelbuilder among their workshop staff
The reason I asked who has been re- building your wheels was to acertain whether they had enough experience to build you something that for your weight and riding style will actually be suitable. and whether they spent the time asking you how/where you ride etc. rather than just selling you whatever rim was available
Talking of which, rim/hub availability is actually still quite sparse from the impact the last 2 years has had on the industry.

 

[1Squadr0n]

Depends what tyre width you're going to be using.
You say you're using DH tyres though. 25-30mm is pretty much the ideal rim width for 2.5 DH tyres.

If you're riding hard at your weight you're going to need DH strength rims and preferably 36 spokes (which will require a new hub) and avoid alloy nipples. Simply put, a higher spoke count builds a stronger, more durable, stiffer wheel which will withstand side impact loading better than a wheel with a lower spoke count.
Building for you I'd probably go with plain guage 2.0 spokes as well. (but I'm not going to go into the positives and negatives between PG and DB spokes here). I'd also avoid any silly hub flange designs. just normal flanges for J-bend spokes.

Very few carbon mtb rims come with more than 32 eyelets and quite a few have just 28

You are overthinking things a bit. but fair enough. off the shelf wheels are generally machine laced and built with the more expensive ones hand finished/checked. Many larger bike shops (even online ones) have a dedicated wheelbuilder to build wheels for customers. All decent smaller LBS should have at least one decent wheelbuilder among their workshop staff
The reason I asked who has been re- building your wheels was to acertain whether they had enough experience to build you something that for your weight and riding style will actually be suitable. and whether they spent the time asking you how/where you ride etc. rather than just selling you whatever rim was available
Talking of which, rim/hub availability is actually still quite sparse from the impact the last 2 years has had on the industry.

Thanks Gary.

It looks to me like 35mm tends to be more the norm for a burlier rim with a 2.5 tyre? Is that my misconception?

The current Halo Vortex is 33mm and I'm on a 2.4in WTB Judge tough/fast rolling. That has been a nice combo as far as I'm concerned but I'm open to guidance re rim width vs tyre profile.

Going to ring around a bit locally to try and work out if there is somewhere I feel more comfortable buying a wheel from. I think the lbs have been decent enough, but I'm just not quite convinced. The first Halo from them came with a dent already in the rim - I think from wrestling with Cushcore. I let it fo as it was minor, but still annoying. To be fair I have no idea how hard it is to fit Cushcore. I always pay someone else to do it!

 

[Gary]

Internal rim width affects tyre profile.
25-30mm gives the optimum profile for a 2.5 DH tyre.
Sure you can fit a 2 5 to a wider or narower rim but you're not gaining anything in doing so. Far from it.

No cushcore isn't too difficult to fit taking your time and using the correct procedure you shouldn't ever dent a rim.
Either the Halos are super soft rims or your LBS is ham-fisted.
I don't have any experience of current halo rims. Sorry.