Would you be interested in Energy Harvesting on your E-Bike?

[MunnsyBiker]

Energy harvesting comes in lots of forms such as regenerative braking, but less well known is energy harvested from suspension.
I am wondering if people would be interested in having a system on their E-bike that would potentially charge the battery, or maybe a GPS/phone etc. Please feel free to share your thoughts! Here are a few pros and cons...

Pros: - Free energy! increase your range for longer exploration rides
- Could lead into active suspension rather than a passive system (if researched enough)
- Something no one really has yet
Cons: - Potential decrease in suspension performance (ride may be impaired)
- May add some weight to your rig
- Some added complexity of electronics to the bike, but reliable

 

[Gary]

Absolutely not

 

[steve_sordy]

This sounds like a student project.
It would have a similar effect to mounting a turbine on your backpack to charge your battery. It would indeed charge the battery but would be self defeating.

 

[MunnsyBiker]

Absolutely not

Fair enough. Out of curiosity, main reason why not?

 

[MunnsyBiker]

This sounds like a student project.

You may be on to something

 

[Stihldog]

Energy harvesting comes in lots of forms such as regenerative braking, but less well known is energy harvested from suspension.
I am wondering if people would be interested in having a system on their E-bike that would potentially charge the battery, or maybe a GPS/phone etc. Please feel free to share your thoughts! Here are a few pros and cons...

Pros: - Free energy! increase your range for longer exploration rides
- Could lead into active suspension rather than a passive system (if researched enough)
- Something no one really has yet
Cons: - Potential decrease in suspension performance (ride may be impaired)
- May add some weight to your rig
- Some added complexity of electronics to the bike, but reliable

I’m tired of carrying a really really long extension cords. I’m open to new charging ideas.

 

[Zimmerframe]

I’m tired of carrying a really really long extension cord. I’m open to new charging ideas.

Idiot ! You need to plug it in and uncoil as you go ! Just carrying doesn't help !

 

[Zimmerframe]

There was another student trying to do regenerative braking several months ago, I was talking to them about ideas behind the scenes but my "separation" kind of got in the way of a lot of things ....

Anyway ..

Yes ! Who wouldn't ...... IF ............ it didn't overly hamper performance, was reliable, weight gains were offset (ie, harvesting could enable smaller battery).

It's just a lot harder to achieve effectively than you first think, especially to harvest a usable amount of energy. You don't have the mass of a car for instance for huge braking regen and this won't work with a mid mount motor unless you set it up without a freewheel.

Feel free to invent some nice brake disks which are coils and just create electricity the more you press the lever.

Suspension sounds great too, rather than wasting energy to heat with damping - maybe a version of Suzuki's old rotary damper off the TL1000S converted to a dynamo.

 

[MunnsyBiker]

This sounds like a student project.
It would have a similar effect to mounting a turbine on your backpack to charge your battery. It would indeed charge the battery but would be self defeating.

I agree, however currently the energy is just going to waste as heat, so if you could retrieve some, even if only to add another couple of miles to your range, might it not be worth considering? Im definitely not thinking youll never be charging up the bike again!! Marginal gains

 

[Gary]

Fair enough. Out of curiosity, main reason why not?

I don't have one main reason. Any one of the downsides outways any benefit for me.
weight
performance
over complication
cost

energy isn't free however you look at it

 

[Stihldog]

Energy harvesting comes in lots of forms such as regenerative braking, but less well known is energy harvested from suspension.

Wouldn’t that slow you down? A solar panel could give you some lift though.

 

[MunnsyBiker]

There was another student trying to do regenerative braking several months ago, I was talking to them about ideas behind the scenes but my "separation" kind of got in the way of a lot of things ....

Anyway ..

Yes ! Who wouldn't ...... IF ............ it didn't overly hamper performance, was reliable, weight gains were offset (ie, harvesting could enable smaller battery).

It's just a lot harder to achieve effectively than you first think, especially to harvest a usable amount of energy. You don't have the mass of a car for instance for huge braking regen and this won't work with a mid mount motor unless you set it up without a freewheel.

Feel free to invent some nice brake disks which are coils and just create electricity the more you press the lever.

Suspension sounds great too, rather than wasting energy to heat with damping - maybe a version of Suzuki's old rotary damper off the TL1000S converted to a dynamo.

Thanks for your insight on this!
Yes, im not sure if braking would be the way to go, but then always worth investigation.

Exactly, damping is just free energy kindly heating the damper and being wasted, from initial predictions, you could be averaging 5-10 Watts lost in the rear suspension alone over the course of a ride. very dependent on terrain of course.

 

[Gary]

I agree, however currently the energy is just going to waste as heat, so if you could retrieve some, even if only to add another couple of miles to your range, might it not be worth considering? Im definitely not thinking youll never be charging up the bike again!! Marginal gains

Miles in range?
?
If you're braking that much you're probably best not to climb up all those super scary hills in the first place

 

[Zimmerframe]

Thanks for your insight on this!
Yes, im not sure if braking would be the way to go, but then always worth investigation.

Exactly, damping is just free energy kindly heating the damper and being wasted, from initial predictions, you could be averaging 5-10 Watts lost in the rear suspension alone over the course of a ride. very dependent on terrain of course.

And how lardy the rider is !

 

[MunnsyBiker]

Wouldn’t that slow you down? A solar panel could give you some lift though.

If the energy is currently wasted, purelyt retriving some of it instead wont be detrimental, clearly other things mentioned like weight/complication may do...

 

[MunnsyBiker]

Miles in range?
?
If you're braking that much you're probably best not to climb up all those super scary hills in the first place

We are talking about power harvested from the suspension damper here, not brakes... All those bumps and shocks its absorbing as you go.
Clearly miles of range from the brakes would require them to be permanently on hahaha

 

[Zimmerframe]

Miles in range?
?
If you're braking that much you're probably best not to climb up all those super scary hills in the first place

As you yourself have said .. 90% of people with e-bikes don't even use 10% of the bikes ability (ok, you haven't used those words, but I'm sure we understand my implication). A lot of people do ride the brakes and change pads every 12 miles (some people have Pad magazines with bar mounted pad change levers, with automated pad bedder inners ... .. )

Lets face it, we're not talking about the "performance" version here (unless the technology suddenly grew some dogs testicles) , but for the lay man plodder, if the solution was simple enough to be reliable and cheap it shouldn't just be discounted because it doesn't fit with how we perceive things only as the are now.

It's only with throwing these ideas out there that someone like you then has a Eureka moment .. That's Eureka and not Ulrika Ulrika Ulrika ..

 

[Stihldog]

If the energy is currently wasted, purelyt retriving some of it instead wont be detrimental, clearly other things mentioned like weight/complication may do...

I can’t cook eggs on my front or rear shocks, but clearly there is some heat being generated there. How much heat could be calculated but it may be minimal.

 

[Zimmerframe]

I should add .... so as not to lead @MunnsyBiker excitedly down a rabbit hole ..

If you are a student ... you have probably never ridden a bicycle with an old school dynamo powered light ..

Try and find one .. and ride it ..

It's quite impressive how much harder it is to ride to power this tiny tiny little generator which creates about as much light as a wasp lighting it's own fart during a party.

 

[Zimmerframe]

I can’t cook eggs on my front or rear shocks, but clearly there is some heat being generated there. How much heat could be calculated but it may be minimal.

You and @steve_sordy really need to get together on this one

 

[MunnsyBiker]

I can’t cook eggs on my front or rear shocks, but clearly there is some heat being generated there. How much heat could be calculated but it may be minimal.

Indeed, but we are talking 5-10 Watts range on average, peaking higher and dropping lower of course depending on terrain.
Considering a phone charger uses 2-6 Watts... not negligible

 

[MunnsyBiker]

I should add .... so as not to lead @MunnsyBiker excitedly down a rabbit hole ..

If you are a student ... you have probably never ridden a bicycle with an old school dynamo powered light ..

Try and find one .. and ride it ..

It's quite impressive how much harder it is to ride to power this tiny tiny little generator which creates about as much light as a wasp lighting it's own fart during a party.

I completely understand, this is purely an excerise in seeing what is possible and finding potential solutions (even if there isnt a particular problem that requires a "solution".. )
I have had a go and yes its incredibly surprising haha, thank you very much for your input though, always helpful to hear other points of view, however the opinion is leaning

 

[Zimmerframe]

Indeed, but we are talking 5-10 Watts range on average, peaking higher and dropping lower of course depending on terrain.
Considering a phone charger uses 2-6 Watts... not negligible

I take it you've done some basic calculations. Take you average 100kg , sorry, 150kg american. worked out what 100mm of movement (very rough average, real world if we're talking none performance rider, less) would be over say 1km and therefore how much energy per km that would equate to ? Then look at that in comparison so say a 500wh battery which in the real world will give between 20-40 km's of range (some will get lots more - but then they might not ride in a way which would be compatible with harvesting)

Then add in at least 50% inefficiency in harvesting and collecting, unless you use super capacitors.

 

[Stihldog]

The movement of fluids between chambers could generated a small amount of energy. Similar to tidal power. That resistance could act as a dampening mechanism also.

 

[MunnsyBiker]

I take it you've done some basic calculations. Take you average 100kg , sorry, 150kg american. worked out what 100mm of movement (very rough average, real world if we're talking none performance rider, less) would be over say 1km and therefore how much energy per km that would equate to ? Then look at that in comparison so say a 500wh battery which in the real world will give between 20-40 km's of range (some will get lots more - but then they might not ride in a way which would be compatible with harvesting)

Then add in at least 50% inefficiency in harvesting and collecting, unless you use super capacitors.

Indeed so at 5 or 10 Watts, cycling for an hour, youve effectively then achieved 1-2% of your batter capacity.
Half for wastage gives 0.5-1% of the battery. Therfore in one hour youve potentially gained half a kilometer. over a longer ride who knows.
But yes its not going to be half your range again sort of energy...

 

[Zimmerframe]

The movement of fluids between chambers could generated a small amount of energy. Similar to tidal power. That resistance could act as a dampening mechanism also.

This is kinda where I was going with the rotary damper, but there are other options. If you went straight to a rotary damper it's easier to harvest the energy via circular motion. You'd also be able to vary the level of harvest to vary the damping on the fly, be it at different points in the stroke or even via a camera interpreting terrain.

You might be able to go other routes with magnetic particles in suspension in the fluid or maybe do something with fluid induction, but I don't know enough about that.

 

[MunnsyBiker]

The movement of fluids between chambers could generated a small amount of energy. Similar to tidal power. That resistance could act as a dampening mechanism also.

Indeed, EHAs (Electro-Hydraulic Actuators) are a perfect example of this as a potential method for regen. And have been tested and used in car suspension in the past with moderate success

 

[Zimmerframe]

Indeed so at 5 or 10 Watts, cycling for an hour, youve effectively then achieved 1-2% of your batter capacity.
Half for wastage gives 0.5-1% of the battery. Therfore in one hour youve potentially gained half a kilometer. over a longer ride who knows.
But yes its not going to be half your range again sort of energy...

This is going to be your problem and is generally with the problem on bikes with regen braking, you get so little power in, it's not actually viably worth it.

So you're working on manufacturer figures of say 100km range .. As bambam says, this is the kind of system which would initially attract commuters .. The problem there is less bumps, so less energy ..

If I gained half a kilometre for every kilometre ridden, you'd be onto something - that would be WOW !

 

[Rob Rides EMTB]

All for the idea of harvesting energy.

However, the gains in harvested energy provided seem pretty negligible and possibly even wiped out once you've added on extra cost, complexity and weight to the bike?

 

[Zimmerframe]

How about we think through this with some common sense.

who would most use this?
Not performance bikers
Maybe commuters

you take a pole of how bumpy peoples commute is.
Here I’ll jump ahead and let you know that on most of our get-to-work-quick trails we choose fast and smooth so now commuters are out of the picture

so your hopes here are not worthless but pretty much not worth it....at all.

Ah, but without hope .... even you would be a virgin still !

On the hope side, how about I said, the faster and harder you rider, my new system will let you rider further.