We have a huge problem with ebikes
- Thread starter Rob Rides EMTB
- Start date
My wifeâs Tesla was made in China as well, it arrived off the trailer flawless, and by all accounts the China built ones are better than the US ones.I have an electric car (polestar) and although it's built in china it's a whole lot less agg than the bike
The Chinese can build stuff, no doubt, we shouldnât think they canât because they also produce shed loads of Western demand lowest possible price disposable electronics to meet a price point.
Mr-EPIC-3
Active member
Yes agree with Rob should be standards.
Standards that would be great: motor mount, battery power connection to motor, charger connection and a base motor / battery management software. Let the manufacture add there features to the base management software for their system.
Standard for assist / Nm total levels for low power eMTBs to high power eMTBs, although I think that the way things are going we will all be riding 40Lbs eMTB with 70Nm or more power in the near future.
Standards that would be great: motor mount, battery power connection to motor, charger connection and a base motor / battery management software. Let the manufacture add there features to the base management software for their system.
Standard for assist / Nm total levels for low power eMTBs to high power eMTBs, although I think that the way things are going we will all be riding 40Lbs eMTB with 70Nm or more power in the near future.
Last edited:
Another rider
Member
Totally agree but sadly I don't think it will happen because it's simply not in the interests of the manufacturers who want to keep selling new ebikes. I suspect their business plans are built on an assumptions that those who can afford it will keep buying new and the life expectancy of the bikes they build is (much) less than 10 years. I guess my 3 year old Focus will end up going the same way.
As an example I have a 5 (nearly 6) year old Cube that is a bit worn but still works fine. However the battery battery is losing it's charge capacity and I'm not sure how much longer it will be viable. A new battery is ÂŁ500+. So when the time comes I'm going to have to think very hard about replacing the battery vs just buying a new bike with markedly improved technology and performance. At that point the Cube will probably get scrapped. By contrast my extremely low-tech Trek of 30+ years vintage is still entirely useable and repairable when something breaks.
Rob knocked it out of the park on this one. At end of the day you'd think bike manufactures would see how this could expand and grow the market. A top flite eMTB is more expensive than many new dirt bikes. The new Triumph 250 motocross bike is under 10K! For the new eMTB enthusiast there's a lot to consider. Add to all of this current economics, not only do compatibility standards make sense, but for the consumer a product that will have better longevity. You'd think there's already industry organizations the manufactures and suppliers belong to. It's really up to them. From the consumer standpoint it's a no brainer!
Semmelrocc
E*POWAH Master
I can't say that I agree with everything in this thread. Forced standardization on motor and battery could seriously hamper innovation. You'll never be able to mount a Bosch CX4 motor to a frame that was made for the TQ HPR. Form factors are currently in the flow and future motors will be most likely more compact than today's models. Enforcing a bolt mount standard today could result in big, clunky motors, even though they could already be much smaller in a few years' time.
Maybe we'll be able to use adapters one day (to fit a small, modern motor to an old frame). Same thing about batteries. Speaking of batteries, there are already companies in the field that refurbish used ebike batteries, so there's an alternative to the problem of worn batteries available today.
A universal charging standard and plug would be something that the industry could and should negotiate on today though. Just my 2 ct.
Maybe we'll be able to use adapters one day (to fit a small, modern motor to an old frame). Same thing about batteries. Speaking of batteries, there are already companies in the field that refurbish used ebike batteries, so there's an alternative to the problem of worn batteries available today.
A universal charging standard and plug would be something that the industry could and should negotiate on today though. Just my 2 ct.
Milwaukee EMTB? I hope so, cause I have a pile of batteries laying around that need discharging.
They know a thing or two about motors also. And their toolsâŠtried and tested by me for many years. I even stash the battery operated chainsaw and sawzall through the winter. My âhand-held-power-toolsâ are scattered about, just waiting for something to break.
The way itâs going now, Dewalt, Eco, Porsche, Huskcasvarna, Stihl etc may soon be in the game
They know a thing or two about motors also. And their toolsâŠtried and tested by me for many years. I even stash the battery operated chainsaw and sawzall through the winter. My âhand-held-power-toolsâ are scattered about, just waiting for something to break.
The way itâs going now, Dewalt, Eco, Porsche, Huskcasvarna, Stihl etc may soon be in the game
You know Rob your example of the Lightcarbon brings up the point that given the problems in the industry there is a significant advantage to being a DIY builder. The DIY builders that took a chance to build a Lightcarbon or CEF50 have been building/using a variety of batteries by necessity since day one. It is not possible for the vast majority of eMTB buyers but those of us that DIY know our bike like an appliance user never will. We can use batteries from a variety of sources, we can get motors from Bafang independent of a full bike sale.
The time we invest in learning about our bikes allows a significant benefit in the longevity of the bike.
The problem I see with your standard bolt pattern idea is that as the motors shrink the same bolt pattern that was good for a full power eMTB will not be appropriate for a new lightweight motor. The designers will always be striving to make the frame more like a traditional MTB with smaller diameter tubes and less noticeable motor area.
I am afraid that in this environment the only thing that will motivate companies to make standards based EMTB is buyers refusing to buy non -standard bikes. But it is now a chicken and egg problem because there needs to be a standard to support which does not exist. Then again most buyers these days chase the glittery new bangles and will not restrain themselves for the greater good. Even their own greater good.
The time we invest in learning about our bikes allows a significant benefit in the longevity of the bike.
The problem I see with your standard bolt pattern idea is that as the motors shrink the same bolt pattern that was good for a full power eMTB will not be appropriate for a new lightweight motor. The designers will always be striving to make the frame more like a traditional MTB with smaller diameter tubes and less noticeable motor area.
I am afraid that in this environment the only thing that will motivate companies to make standards based EMTB is buyers refusing to buy non -standard bikes. But it is now a chicken and egg problem because there needs to be a standard to support which does not exist. Then again most buyers these days chase the glittery new bangles and will not restrain themselves for the greater good. Even their own greater good.
Agreed.
When a new bike comes out with a more slender downtube or a motor that looks like a normal BB then the bike journalists are all over it. If you restrict these things then that goes out the window.
You also need to consider cell options and voltages as these are going to be a big constraint on the pack design. A 36v pack using 2170's is unlikely to fit in the same space as a 48v pack using 18650's. A higher capacity pack may well achieve this by switching to smaller or larger cells but then reducing or increasing the number of cells in parallel.
A universal charging standard really would be good though. Not too bad to have 36 and 48v chargers, but surely manufacturers will soon look at 60 or 72V systems.
Another option that would be lovely is batteries split into 100wh segments. So if someone made a 36v bike that used 4 18v x 5.5Ah packs then each pack would be 99wh and you could take all 4 out and take them on a plane with you, and even take another 4 spares!
In the long run the introduction of proprietary products and closed systems inhibit innovation.
Adopting standards does not inhibit innovation, to the contrary in the long run it encourages innovation and the development of upwards compatible products.
Adopting standards does not inhibit innovation, to the contrary in the long run it encourages innovation and the development of upwards compatible products.
cappuccino34
Active member
Polini do offer warranty extensions by way of having a motor service, which is typically 2-300 Euros (depending what needs replacement). For that you get another 12 months warranty, so you can have continuous warranty for 90 pence a day.
If, someone made a bike and said "We are going to support and develop this mounting and connection arrangement for the next 5 years and will make all the new parts available to buy so you can upgrade" I think they would get a lot of sales.
In fact, it's the sort of move I can see forcing others to follow suit in order to keep up.
In fact, it's the sort of move I can see forcing others to follow suit in order to keep up.
franciscoasismm
Active member
The short-term solution would be to force companies to ensure that new ebikes are delivered with 1 motor + 1 backup battery, thus 90% of the breakdowns would be solved in 15 minutes by the users
This actually is a point I have made before. The motors themselves have the mechanical component and the controller board (pcb) I am still surprised that there are not Chinese alternatives being produced for tge controller & display for Bosch, Shimano, Brose etc. At that point, once the controller and firmware becomes more open, then aftermarket batteries would also potentially become available.
The quality of the cells used for high quality ebike batteries are much higher than the ones used in power packs.
Have you ever heard about fire in an original Bosch ebike battery?
I'm an EE developing products containing 18650 li-ion cells. I would not consider using 18650 cells from other manufacturers than Samsung, LG, Panasonic or Molicell. And only two of these companies make batteries with good capacity at 0 deg C and only one with good capacity at -20 deg C.
pray tell; " only one with good capacity at -20 deg C."
Winter is here and we're riding in it , please share.
We have spent a lot of resources identifying and testing low temperature cells, I'm not able to share because it gives us a large advantage in the market.
We even tested several different Chinese cells claiming to have good low temperature performance, they were all a disaster.
We even tested several different Chinese cells claiming to have good low temperature performance, they were all a disaster.
I do agree to a point but, you canât have your cake and eat it too. Say if this idea everything being interchangeable, motor, batteries and chargers happened 10 years ago, we would still be riding bikes with ugly external batteries, there would be no size reductions to the motors, and we would be stuck with the same sized batteries from 10 years ago because the chargers canât be changed. Yes, I know there are compromises that can be done, especially with the chargers for newer ones to charge different voltages and the like but to make everything backwards compatible hinders innovation. A brand wants to integrate the battery in the frame, they canât because itâs a huge, big brick that mounts to the outside of the frame. A brand wants to design a compact lightweight motor, they canât, because itâs has to fit this big gaping hole in the bottom of the frame. Thereâs definitely some improvement that needs to happen, like when small changes are done, that they are backwards compatible and that things like motors are allowed to be repaired. There is a balance between innovation and stagnation.
As a product development engineer I agree with those saying standardization of bolt patterns and battery packs will inhibit innovation. We have just introduced a new chargeable product which is very different from the competition, if we had to use standardized charging infrastructure we would probably not developed this product because it would have been similar to the competition. Since we didn't have any external constraints we could think outside the box and come up with something revolutionary.
It's not the connectors which makes it impossible to use other chargers than the ones coming from the ebike motor manufacturer, it's the communication. Smart chargers communicate with the battery, just like a Qi wireless phone charger will do. Different battery voltages can easily be dealt with. Bosch smart system is using CAN FD for communication, i assume most other use standard CAN. But it's not CAN FD or CAN which is stopping them to communicate, it's the protocols running on top of the CAN buses. I can't see any reason why Bosch should support standardization, it will just enable smaller players to eat into their ecosystem.
Both my eBikes have Smart System, I'm very happy with that. New accessories will be compatible with bike, and I expect software upgrades to continue for several years. Bosch will produce spare parts for minimum 6 years after they stop supplying the parts to OEM's. So we can expect spare parts for at least 10 years from introduction. After this I'm happy to have an excuse to buy a new bike.
I see a lot of people at this forum doing major upgrades of their bikes, even brand new bikes. The typical ebike user don't upgrade much, they just want to keep their bike running. When I see people talking about major upgrades of a new bike, I'm thinking they bought the wrong bike.
It's not the connectors which makes it impossible to use other chargers than the ones coming from the ebike motor manufacturer, it's the communication. Smart chargers communicate with the battery, just like a Qi wireless phone charger will do. Different battery voltages can easily be dealt with. Bosch smart system is using CAN FD for communication, i assume most other use standard CAN. But it's not CAN FD or CAN which is stopping them to communicate, it's the protocols running on top of the CAN buses. I can't see any reason why Bosch should support standardization, it will just enable smaller players to eat into their ecosystem.
Both my eBikes have Smart System, I'm very happy with that. New accessories will be compatible with bike, and I expect software upgrades to continue for several years. Bosch will produce spare parts for minimum 6 years after they stop supplying the parts to OEM's. So we can expect spare parts for at least 10 years from introduction. After this I'm happy to have an excuse to buy a new bike.
I see a lot of people at this forum doing major upgrades of their bikes, even brand new bikes. The typical ebike user don't upgrade much, they just want to keep their bike running. When I see people talking about major upgrades of a new bike, I'm thinking they bought the wrong bike.
Wozzlegummich
Member
Love my Bafang M610. Been same for years. Parts available everywhere.
michael.kozera
New Dad ! đ¶
I have no idea wtf this guy is talking about. My bbshd works in any bike and with any battery.
I disagree.
Say, way back in the day a transmission manufactured set a standard for a gear box output and input shaft. Back then the engines of the day put out 20hp. How far along are these shafts going to hold up as the engine manufactures increase power output of their engines? Not very long at all but they have a limit and because they can't change the "standard" it limits engine development.
Same goes for Ebikes. If we stuck with one of the first mid drive motors we would be still have motors and batteries that look like this.....
Of course, there is a balance, especially when they make a motor that is basically the same but then make the software not backwards compatible, or you simply just can't buy the motor on its own.
Standards don't have to be regulations.
One thing I think we could all agree on is charging..
If there was one open standard for a charging port then it would be hugely beneficial.
Shops, cafes and towns could install bike chargers and we could do longer routes without having to carry a huge power brick.
Obviously public chargers would need to use an open protocol to handshake with the bike and agree a voltage and current but this works for cars so it could work for bikes.
Bikes could still just ship with a cheaper simpler charger for that bikes voltage.
One thing I think we could all agree on is charging..
If there was one open standard for a charging port then it would be hugely beneficial.
Shops, cafes and towns could install bike chargers and we could do longer routes without having to carry a huge power brick.
Obviously public chargers would need to use an open protocol to handshake with the bike and agree a voltage and current but this works for cars so it could work for bikes.
Bikes could still just ship with a cheaper simpler charger for that bikes voltage.
Having standards does not mean everything stays the same forever and there is no progress.
Standards evolve as technology advances.
Standards evolve as technology advances.
Very well said Rob and very brave. There is also one other issue that is happening more and more now and that is the reparability of these motors is also being restricted. Yamaha have just upgraded the software in all their motors to stop PCB changes, they have also soldered down the PCB in their PW-X3 motor. Bosch Gen 4 is extremely difficult to repair if internal parts require replacement and Brose have reported that their new Gen 3 motor cannot be repaired at all (we await to see about this). Mahle, have parts that require destruction to get them apart, etc. etc.
We have had meetings with most of the main manufacturers and asked how this meets the sustainability laws and they just say that they are "looking into it"
Both these situations definitely go towards customers turning away from eBikes. And, I don't think most manufacturers are totally in touch with just how upset and aggrieved people get when their 3 year old bike needs another fist full of cash spent on it.
A good example of this is how fast old bikes disappear. This is not because they don't work any more, the motors are fine or totally repairable, but the battery is usually dying after 5 - 6 years. Now you have a ÂŁ1,000 bike, that needs ÂŁ600 spent on it, and no one else wants to touch it! So there are now thousands of eBikes just rotting away at the back of peoples sheds and garages!
This has to change or people will turn their back on eBikes, just as they are starting to do with electric vehicles.
- Thread starter
- #58
Agree completely! Standards can totally evolve as technology dictates.
A possible bolt pattern standard idea:
- Full Fat Motors
- SL power motors
The difference between the full power motors in size / weight / power output is pretty minimal right now. Most seem to be around 2.7 KG and share very similar physical properties and volumetric dimensions. I dont see a standard bolt pattern standard restricting innovation here. Also, standard bolt patterns will likely allow frame designers more freedom (in time and resource). There would be no need to keep adhering to motor OEM's slight variations.
This standard could obviously be changed as tech progress dictates. But no doubt we will reach a time (soon) where there's only so much progress that can be had with a full power motor and we reach the limits of physics.
Batteries are just long rectangular tubes that hold cells. All the manufacturers offer different sizes and fittings which is kinda pointless. Shimano EP800 and EP801 batteries are exactly the same size, dimension and port, but the EP801 battery does not work in an Ep800 system. This is ridiculous.
Some standards in other industries that have worked:
- HDMI (A joint venture between 7 companies including Sony, Panasonic and Toshiba)
- USB - C (Virtually every consumer electronic device now)
- PCI Express: (For computer expansion cards to work together)
- NACS: EV car charging standards (AKA the Tesla Plug) that most EV manufacturers are adopting for North America. Even Toyota, the worlds largest car manufacturer have agreed to use Tesla's car charging standard.
I was with you right up until this point, EV sales are going only one way, and the move to ban the sale of new ICE is happening in most of Europe. But anywayâŠ
People keep comparing EVs to e-bikes, but the two sectors are miles apart, just like bicycles and vehicles always have been.
EV manufacturers have to comply with right to repair legislation and they also have to have parts available for a number of years after production ends.
Fixing the latter would fix most of the e-bike issues mentioned in Robâs video, if you knew you could get an e-bike repaired easily, youâd be more likely to buy a new one.
One thing I donât understand is people seem happy to throw ÂŁ1k+ on a new set of forks, wheels or a shock, but baulk at paying similar for a new battery or motor when the time comes. Technical kit will need more money spending on it.
Not sure thatâs a great example, one manufacturers proprietary connnector becoming the standard in North America doesnât change much for the rest of the world, just cars that will be sold in that market.
Europe will still use CCS2/Type 2.
All that standard has done, if you think about it, is created an obsolescence problem in millions of electric vehicles already on the roads, including Teslaâs. How do you feel if you just purchased a vehicle with CCS2? A bit like those with ChaDeMo connectors I guess, who are slowly watching the connector disappear on many new charger installs.
Similarly, you purchased an ÂŁ8k bike last year, and next year somebody says âhey everybody, the new standard for chargers and batteries is Xâ, and your bike needs a Y?
And then 5 years later, something better comes along and thereâs a new standard, and round we go again.
Even some of the other examples youâve given like PCI-E is just a connector standard, there are different versions of it, that new GPU might fit, but it wonât perform optimally in a 1st gen slot, and thatâs assuming your power supply has the right connector to power it. There are competing CPU connectors, and arguably CPUs are better for the competition.
Standards might slow down obsolescence, but they donât stop it.
Heck, Iâm still waiting for the domestic plug socket to be standardised across the world, never mind the supplied voltage.
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