No Standards
Too Many batteries,
No Upgrade Path
No backwards compatibility
etc...
We have a huge problem with ebikes
- Thread starter Rob Rides EMTB
- Start date
No Standards
Too Many batteries,
No Upgrade Path
No backwards compatibility
etc...
Sounds like the whole bike industry!
I believe that standardizing ebike specific components will create better competition. A fork or shock or wheel or seat, can be as compatible as a motor or battery …but they can all fit!
Perhaps manufacturers will soon discover the benefits of standardizing e-bikes components to a certain extent. But whose gonna be left in the dust?
Perhaps manufacturers will soon discover the benefits of standardizing e-bikes components to a certain extent. But whose gonna be left in the dust?
- Thread starter
- #7
It can be and has been done. Here’s standardisation for batteries for motorbike EV”s.
Swappable Batteries Motorcycle Consortium:
www.piaggiogroup.com
Swappable Batteries Motorcycle Consortium:
- Develop common technical specifications of the swappable battery systems
- Confirm common usage of the battery systems
- Make, and promote, the Consortium’s common specifications a standard within European and International standardization bodies
- Expand the use of the Consortium’s common specification to global level
Swappable Batteries Motorcycle Consortium agreement signed between Piaggio Group, Honda Motor, KTM and Yamaha Motor for motorcycles and light electric vehicles
September 06th, 2021 – Following the signing of the Letter of Intent on March 1, PIAGGIO Group (PIA.MI), HONDA Motor Co., Ltd., KTM F&E GmbH and YAMAHA Motor Co., Ltd., have officially signed the agreement for the creation of the Swappable Batteries Motorcycle Consortium (SBMC).
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Just the mounts, and wiring, and battery, and charger. Internal components, the level of quality, R&D, could potentially remain the same.
The variation of parts is holding me back from purchasing a new eMTB. I’m currently stocked with parts and components for one type of eMTB. My frame is not redundant …but it could be.
The industry has chosen to make everything proprietary. Once you buy into a system they own you. It eliminates competition. Once you have become a slave they can sell you parts at whatever price they want.
It is our fault for not being more critical of stupid proprietary parts that have no real incremental benefit. We allow the companies to do this too us by not doing our homework.
It is interesting that after years of bottom bracket free-for-all the industry is drifting back to a standard that is half a century old...BSA68.
It is our fault for not being more critical of stupid proprietary parts that have no real incremental benefit. We allow the companies to do this too us by not doing our homework.
It is interesting that after years of bottom bracket free-for-all the industry is drifting back to a standard that is half a century old...BSA68.
Paulquattro
E*POWAH Elite
Neither will happen mores the pity .
.............meanwhile there is a growing opportunity for new players to launch retrofit products. At the moment there are large numbers of bikes from different brands fitted with Bosch CX4 motors that are out of warranty and/or with high mileage, and that number will grow. Same story for bikes with EP8 motors. Im sure I read recently of a new motor on the market that will replace an EP8...........cant remember the details. The problem however is not just the physical shape/bolt pattern of the motor, but the fact it contains a PCB that forms an integral part of the CAN on any specific bike, which links to a specific controller and other sensors. So in the absence of the manufacturers agreeing any form of standardisation, the a bility to fit a different motor into the same frame as for example an EP8 or CX4 is not enough. An entire system replacement is needed..............motor, controller, speed sensor, mode switch.....and battery. Then that complete system needs service back up. I dont see any of that happening!
Agree with you Rob 
When I see a 700Wh "Specialized" battery for more than €1200 when it should actually cost barely €200... I think that it's a pain in my ass !
When I see a 700Wh "Specialized" battery for more than €1200 when it should actually cost barely €200... I think that it's a pain in my ass !
Yeah, it's a manufacturer and marketing wild west.
a good comparison is a power pack.....e.g Jackory. Invariably RRP is £1 per w/h...........so a 500w/h is £500 and often cheaper in a sale. That includes the charger, several ports, usually a cooling fan and a robust casing with handle. I really connot see why EMTB batteries are up to double that sort of pricing.Agree with you Rob
When I see a 700Wh "Specialized" battery for more than €1200 when it should actually cost barely €200... I think that it's a pain in my ass !
@Mikerb
You are 100% right, do you realize that I set up an electrical plant of more than 3000Wh for around 1500€.. and with the pure sine converter, the mppt solar regulator and the BMS at the top level.. I find that these bicycle batteries costing more than €1,200 are an insult to consumers.
www.emtbforums.com
You are 100% right, do you realize that I set up an electrical plant of more than 3000Wh for around 1500€.. and with the pure sine converter, the mppt solar regulator and the BMS at the top level.. I find that these bicycle batteries costing more than €1,200 are an insult to consumers.
Portable Power Stations
Does anyone use a portable power station to charge their ebikes while on road trips, camping etc? If so, I would love to hear about recommendations.
www.emtbforums.com
ebsocalmtb
Active member
I agree with a level of annoyance in emtb right to repair and life of the product consumer control... but other then that there are some crazy things being thrown out in this thread.
Batteries are one area where I too would want the ability to rebuild a battery pack... but ISO, UL, CSA and CE are going too require the products be certified. Promoting and allowing dismantling of certified electrical items breaks that certification and it's simply not something the manufacturers can do. We can all thank our governmental regulations for both the increase in safety of consumers when compared to the 20s-30s-40s-50s... but with that comes increased cost (along with the cost to cover litigation/defense).
Regarding battery cost, I understand the complaints... but you absolutely cannot build a battery, that has certification (again, UL, CSA or CE) with a custom/robust case and bms for $200 dollars. I've built DIY batteries for diy ebike conversions as well as solar generators myself... quality cells that will discharge 30amps continuously are not able to be procured and built for $200 dollars... even if you're going to skip the certification process. Throw in the BMS system (as well as R/D), the casing, milspec (waterproof) connectors and mounting hardware... $200 dollars is a pipe dream. Again, I've built a few high capacity, quality packs before, and because of my work, I've paid for UL certification of custom electrical assemblies. I am reasonably certain the cheapest I could do that and market them for sale is in the $750-$1,000 range.
Regarding the other elements... we have more standardization in the bicycle marketplace then almost every other vehicle out there. There is no expectation to move around engines, transmissions, axles, drive shafts, ecu's from one vehicle to another as a consumer. Why should we be expecting that here?
I think the miss here is that we are allowing these companies to sell these products without a proper plan/statement on how they are going to process the end of life disposal of the batteries and offer refurbishment in lieu of just landfill and replacement. Same goes with the motors and the ability to service them. There needs to be a path forward to allow rebuilding of the motors and part availability, similarly to the way there is in ICE motorcycles.
All that being said, I am a little surprised when people that own ebikes get furious and up in arms when a motor fails after multiple years of use and many km's/miles. Sure, a failure in the first year and with less then 10,000 km would be absurd, and should be handled by the mfg... however we all recognize that if we ride 5,000 miles on a chain, cassette, chainring we will be spending $400-$1,000 to replace those components. However, we find ourselves shocked that we could roast a motor that costs $1,000 - $1,500 in that same timeframe. While I agree, it would be infuriating... it's not as if these aren't wear items.
In contrast, I have a 4-stroke dirt bike that will without question, need the top end rebuilt to the tune of $1,000 every 300-500 hours of use. It only had a 6 month warranty when I bought it, I've rebuilt the top end twice and have less then 6,000 miles on it. In contrast, ebike maintenance is pretty minimal. The difference that keeps me from being livid at that reality, is that I can source parts, and rebuild some of that motor. I have no expectation that I'll put a yamaha engine in my ktm, or move over parts from another bike to fix the problem.
Batteries are one area where I too would want the ability to rebuild a battery pack... but ISO, UL, CSA and CE are going too require the products be certified. Promoting and allowing dismantling of certified electrical items breaks that certification and it's simply not something the manufacturers can do. We can all thank our governmental regulations for both the increase in safety of consumers when compared to the 20s-30s-40s-50s... but with that comes increased cost (along with the cost to cover litigation/defense).
Regarding battery cost, I understand the complaints... but you absolutely cannot build a battery, that has certification (again, UL, CSA or CE) with a custom/robust case and bms for $200 dollars. I've built DIY batteries for diy ebike conversions as well as solar generators myself... quality cells that will discharge 30amps continuously are not able to be procured and built for $200 dollars... even if you're going to skip the certification process. Throw in the BMS system (as well as R/D), the casing, milspec (waterproof) connectors and mounting hardware... $200 dollars is a pipe dream. Again, I've built a few high capacity, quality packs before, and because of my work, I've paid for UL certification of custom electrical assemblies. I am reasonably certain the cheapest I could do that and market them for sale is in the $750-$1,000 range.
Regarding the other elements... we have more standardization in the bicycle marketplace then almost every other vehicle out there. There is no expectation to move around engines, transmissions, axles, drive shafts, ecu's from one vehicle to another as a consumer. Why should we be expecting that here?
I think the miss here is that we are allowing these companies to sell these products without a proper plan/statement on how they are going to process the end of life disposal of the batteries and offer refurbishment in lieu of just landfill and replacement. Same goes with the motors and the ability to service them. There needs to be a path forward to allow rebuilding of the motors and part availability, similarly to the way there is in ICE motorcycles.
All that being said, I am a little surprised when people that own ebikes get furious and up in arms when a motor fails after multiple years of use and many km's/miles. Sure, a failure in the first year and with less then 10,000 km would be absurd, and should be handled by the mfg... however we all recognize that if we ride 5,000 miles on a chain, cassette, chainring we will be spending $400-$1,000 to replace those components. However, we find ourselves shocked that we could roast a motor that costs $1,000 - $1,500 in that same timeframe. While I agree, it would be infuriating... it's not as if these aren't wear items.
In contrast, I have a 4-stroke dirt bike that will without question, need the top end rebuilt to the tune of $1,000 every 300-500 hours of use. It only had a 6 month warranty when I bought it, I've rebuilt the top end twice and have less then 6,000 miles on it. In contrast, ebike maintenance is pretty minimal. The difference that keeps me from being livid at that reality, is that I can source parts, and rebuild some of that motor. I have no expectation that I'll put a yamaha engine in my ktm, or move over parts from another bike to fix the problem.
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Wait... whaaaaat? The funnest vehicle I ever had was a '57 Ford Styleside into which I stuffed a 427 and a C6. My wife drove the Ford Courier that rocked a 302 and a C4. And then there was the Corvair bolted onto the VW transaxle. I'll admit, that was a POS.
I think it will be the Chinese to first crack the nut and offer up motors that are a direct replacement for OEM. But you know what blows me away? The interchangeability of parts on modern mountain bikes. With a few variations, forks, brakes, droppers, handlebars, pedals, grips, stems, saddles, hubs, derailleurs are interchangeable.
ebsocalmtb
Active member
I'm also the same kind of idiot. I put a honda k24 engine into a 99 miata and built my own wiring harness and ECU, I also put an gm ls3 short block in the back of a 2004 911 Carrera 2s and I built a 24 hours of lemons car out of an 82 bmw 318 that had a 3.5L inline 6 from a 92 740i. Truthfully, those were all terrible cars... no idea how any one of them didn't usher me into divorce. My wife is a patient women that now has permanent hearing damage.
So then you understand the sheer willpower it takes to refrain from modifying our fan$y and expen$ive bikes. I'm pretty sure I can program my motor for considerably more output. The only reason I don't is because over the years I've learned that the more I "improve" products, the harder it is to get the manufacturer to give me a new one when it blows up.
@Rob Rides EMTB I cant agree more with every point you made in the video.
I'm sure that in time someone in Asia will bring out a charger with adjustable outputs and adaptor/plugs a bit like those that used to be common for laptops and it will probably help you burn the garage/shed/house down.
The rest of it though, what a mess.
I'm sure that in time someone in Asia will bring out a charger with adjustable outputs and adaptor/plugs a bit like those that used to be common for laptops and it will probably help you burn the garage/shed/house down.
The rest of it though, what a mess.
Unless we all want to be riding around on the equivalent of a communist bloc Travant (and hey, my Levo is as close as that gets, right?!) then we’ll always have this issue of proprietary parts.
What really needs to change is the availability of replacement parts (motors/batteries/frames) so that we can get a reasonable life span out of an e-bike before it’s fit for recycling.
We’re also to blame, who isn’t using a 10+ year old bike frame because the geometry isn’t ’on trend’? Or because it only has 100mm of travel now, and not 180mm?
To most people who aren’t reviewers or YouTubers, it matters very little, but we all buy into it.
We kind of get the bikes and service we deserve really, so the finger needs to point at us a bit as well.
My ‘old’ focus Jam2 is approaching 5 years old, I can still buy replacement E8000 (or EP8 or even E7000) motors, but the proprietary battery will likely be the end of it. It’s still working fine now, and takes range extenders, but it’s the least fixable part.
My bike shop would likely want me to replace the whole bike when the time comes, and maybe they’re right, but I chose to buy into the ebike picture, same as all of us I guess.
What really needs to change is the availability of replacement parts (motors/batteries/frames) so that we can get a reasonable life span out of an e-bike before it’s fit for recycling.
We’re also to blame, who isn’t using a 10+ year old bike frame because the geometry isn’t ’on trend’? Or because it only has 100mm of travel now, and not 180mm?
To most people who aren’t reviewers or YouTubers, it matters very little, but we all buy into it.
We kind of get the bikes and service we deserve really, so the finger needs to point at us a bit as well.
My ‘old’ focus Jam2 is approaching 5 years old, I can still buy replacement E8000 (or EP8 or even E7000) motors, but the proprietary battery will likely be the end of it. It’s still working fine now, and takes range extenders, but it’s the least fixable part.
My bike shop would likely want me to replace the whole bike when the time comes, and maybe they’re right, but I chose to buy into the ebike picture, same as all of us I guess.
Gilbo
Member
It can be and has been done. Here’s standardisation for batteries for motorbike EV”s.
Swappable Batteries Motorcycle Consortium:
- Develop common technical specifications of the swappable battery systems
- Confirm common usage of the battery systems
- Make, and promote, the Consortium’s common specifications a standard within European and International standardization bodies
- Expand the use of the Consortium’s common specification to global level
Swappable Batteries Motorcycle Consortium agreement signed between Piaggio Group, Honda Motor, KTM and Yamaha Motor for motorcycles and light electric vehicles
September 06th, 2021 – Following the signing of the Letter of Intent on March 1, PIAGGIO Group (PIA.MI), HONDA Motor Co., Ltd., KTM F&E GmbH and YAMAHA Motor Co., Ltd., have officially signed the agreement for the creation of the Swappable Batteries Motorcycle Consortium (SBMC).
Why don’t manufacturers offer buyable extended warranties (like motorcycle and car manufacturers) so at the end of the warranty period you go back to your Bosch service centre or your original point of sale and buy an extended warranty for the electrical components on your bike ie battery and motor.
So long as certain criteria has been met (software updates ,bike condition and servicing) this would be piece of mind for owner and also help shops with service and repair trade. If the manufacturers have faith in the product this should not be a problem.
My guess? Because that’s more difficult and requires more effort in committing to a service network and supply chain system to ensure that parts are available for whatever period of extended warranty you’re offering than just trying to seek you another bike after the statutory 2 year warranty is up.
It’s likely more profitable to try and get you onto a new e-bike every 3 years than taking a couple of hundred pounds/bucks off you to warranty a battery or motor for another year or so, and then you’ve not got to sign a long contract with whoever is making your battery/motor/power electronics to ensure that parts are available to support your extended warranty customers.
To be honest, as a consumer, I’m a lot more relaxed about a £2k bike lasting 4-5 years than I am about one costing £8k, but everybody is different.
Tone461
Active member
Well done Rob, great Vid.
How about manufacturers commit to sustainability . All spares being available for a much longer period of time (5+ years min?) so we keep a healthy second hand market going? Not releasing motors for general sale is just baffling!
How about manufacturers commit to sustainability . All spares being available for a much longer period of time (5+ years min?) so we keep a healthy second hand market going? Not releasing motors for general sale is just baffling!
Same here.
I bought my KSL locally for support on battery/motor etc. After 800miles and me having a moan after the glitchy firmware I have, wheels made of cheese. Reasonable level shock and forks that have both failed or needed servicing from new and a frame that had pivot fittings come loose/lost which resulted in a long walk thereafter during one of it's first rides. I'm less in love with this particular bike than I was. Underwhelmed.
The shops view on all this, your bike and parts were manufactured sometime ago and assembled during COVID when Asia had staff and quality issues.
Even after replacing the last frame pivot, they suggested I took it home and checked the torque on a rainy day, because they hadn't. Months later - If you want to give us another £2k we can sort a lot shortfalls on this bike. Six months, 800 miles
Lost a bit of love for the E and this shop and will now be riding the other bikes I have a lot more. It's handy I can spanner too and I don't need to rely on the shop for all the things they think I need.
Rant over.
its probably already been said.
sadly competition while giving us problems like this is what drives innovation.
war is the best example of this.
without this kind of competition specialized might never have pushed ebikes forward in the way they did with the user experience.
I wont go on but if any of you work in an environment where it takes 17 meetings to determine the outcome of one thing relevant to a larger project, you will know that there will be many different opinions on how that should have been actioned and that any decision made by committee is a compromise.. if we had a single standard in ebikes, innovative brands like Pole might never exist.
I think that this will happen eventually, as @Rob Rides EMTB has suggested it will be driven by customer frustration, we are seeing it in electric vehicles more and more and that was the same story but it will take time.
I think the awful attitude that manufacturers have regarding any tinkering with their bikes has to stop, the right to repair and the closed proprietry systems they use and refuse to provide proper back up for will have to become a thing of the past if they want to survive.
sadly competition while giving us problems like this is what drives innovation.
war is the best example of this.
without this kind of competition specialized might never have pushed ebikes forward in the way they did with the user experience.
I wont go on but if any of you work in an environment where it takes 17 meetings to determine the outcome of one thing relevant to a larger project, you will know that there will be many different opinions on how that should have been actioned and that any decision made by committee is a compromise.. if we had a single standard in ebikes, innovative brands like Pole might never exist.
I think that this will happen eventually, as @Rob Rides EMTB has suggested it will be driven by customer frustration, we are seeing it in electric vehicles more and more and that was the same story but it will take time.
I think the awful attitude that manufacturers have regarding any tinkering with their bikes has to stop, the right to repair and the closed proprietry systems they use and refuse to provide proper back up for will have to become a thing of the past if they want to survive.
Amber Valley Guy
Active member
Could be that eb motors are more expensive than what they sell them for (if taking in R&D costs etc), so the manufacturers recoup some of that cost in their batteries? Like inkjet printers and (rip-off ) ink prices but not as blatant. Just a guess.
What pee's me off is lack of a usb port or a range extender option (yes I know some emtbs have them) but come on these should of been standard fitment to all emtbs from 6 or 7 years ago. Oh and so should a storage cubbyhole, for a tube or some tools, co2 cartridges etc. It ain't rocket science.
What pee's me off is lack of a usb port or a range extender option (yes I know some emtbs have them) but come on these should of been standard fitment to all emtbs from 6 or 7 years ago. Oh and so should a storage cubbyhole, for a tube or some tools, co2 cartridges etc. It ain't rocket science.
Type 2 Mennekes has been the charge plug standard for many years now, and Europe/Tesla have settled on CCS2 Rapid Charging plug for Europe and North America now.
Only Nissan are holding out with the ChaDeMo plug for the home market, but even the new Ariya has CCS2 in Europe.
Automotive manufacturers are generally much better, whilst many engines/batteries etc are still proprietary (along with masses of other parts) they have long supply chains set up to support extensive dealer networks who need parts to keep customer cars going.
Once they fall out of the main dealer networks, laws mean that they have to supply repair and diagnostic information to third party garages, so that they remain supported.
It’s on a whole different scale to most bike manufacturers though, even Specialized aren’t VW/Mercedes, so how smaller manufacturers would cope if forced to supply all spares for 10 years I’m not sure.
In some ways we should be careful what we wish for, but perhaps the best thing to do is support those manufacturers who appear to stand behind their products and customers.
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