USFS Issues New Guidance For Ebike Use On Current US Non Motorized Trails

[johnf0246]

So for those Ebikers who have read the new USFS Ebike guidance document, have any of you seen any positive movements in allowing Ebike use on National Forest non-motorized trails? Please provide a list of National Forest trails that you have seen a change in the trail designation
from non-motorist to motorist.

 

[Stihldog]

This is my concern once our Povincial Parks management catches up with the latest technology. Our mountain is divided up into several user categories. Hikers, mtb’ers, runners, explorers, dog walkers, existing cabin owners, service vehicles, and EMTB’ers. ATV’s or Motorcycles are not allowed. (There are no horses in this area).
Everyone understands that these activities may overlap sometimes and basically everyone tries to get along. BUT. It’s starting to get busy.

I like the diversity of users on this mountain but I have personally confronted some motorcycle riders. This leads me to throttle assist eBikes. (Not peddle assist eMTBs). I see a distinct difference between throttle assist and peddle assist. Many, not all, throttle assist bikes can exceed the speed limits. IMO these are electrically powered motorcycles. Many of the throttle assist bikes are commuters and lack the suspension needed for this mountain. However, on the community trails (tame and groomed), these eBikes with throttle control are seen, and reach speeds beyond the limit of safety for hikers and families. (We avoid these areas).
Im afraid that government’s will implement blanket regulations that won’t bode well for us.
On our mountain I can only try to be a small “ambassador” between the different groups. Volunteer groups are a great way to show and explain the benefits of eMTB’s.
Future regulations … heads up, it’s probably going to happen.

 

[RobG]

Government rarely takes the time to understand what it's actually doing with regard to regulations. We've already seen this with blanket e-bike bans all over the US. These people likely think that these are just electric motorcycles (even without throttles) designed to look like bicycles, and will allow users to overrun hikers and regular mountain bikers... but in actuality, we know that's not the case. Heck, with my e-bike, I figure I can maybe keep up with people on regular mtb's given my lack of fitness. It's still work. But making pols and regulators understand this is the key, and it's near impossible because once they "rule" they don't much care to go back to a topic. And the naysayers are way more vocal. They spend all their time trying to keep us out; we just want to spend our time riding.

Add to that the fact that probably half of the employees of USFS and BLM are greenies who don't want ANY form of "mechanized" transportation/recreation on public lands. To them, we're all just viruses out to destroy mother nature. The other half are lazy and want to do the least amount of work possible, so they'd prefer to just close the trails rather than actually manage them. Yeah I'm sure there are a few on our side, but they can't help.

One thing that really bugs me is this blanket phrase, "to protect resources." This is used pretty much any time there is a trail closure. What are these mythical resources of which they speak? It's not like we're riding in or next to a historically-significant excavation site, or some magical orchard, or anything else. IT'S DIRT AND SAGEBRUSH. Or trees. Rocks. Of which there are millions of them. "To protect resources" is just a catch-all.. political doublespeak... greenie bullcrap. It's because they can't come up with a valid reason other than, "because we said so."

I was curious so I Googled about ebikes and Whistler. They're banned from most of the good trails, and they have the nerve to say, "to protect natural resources." There's that phrase again. I call BS. Oh and something about protecting grizzly bears. Huh? I think grizzly bear vs emtb means grizzly is gonna win. More BS.

Society has been groomed by the over-the-top green movement and this needs to change or before long, there will be no public land and no need for any of our toys. We'll be restricted to high-rise apartments inside a city center and going into "nature" will mean a local city park. Leaving city limits will be prohibited. Think I'm kidding? That's their goal.

 

[johnf0246]

Government rarely takes the time to understand what it's actually doing with regard to regulations. We've already seen this with blanket e-bike bans all over the US. These people likely think that these are just electric motorcycles (even without throttles) designed to look like bicycles, and will allow users to overrun hikers and regular mountain bikers... but in actuality, we know that's not the case. Heck, with my e-bike, I figure I can maybe keep up with people on regular mtb's given my lack of fitness. It's still work. But making pols and regulators understand this is the key, and it's near impossible because once they "rule" they don't much care to go back to a topic. And the naysayers are way more vocal. They spend all their time trying to keep us out; we just want to spend our time riding.

Add to that the fact that probably half of the employees of USFS and BLM are greenies who don't want ANY form of "mechanized" transportation/recreation on public lands. To them, we're all just viruses out to destroy mother nature. The other half are lazy and want to do the least amount of work possible, so they'd prefer to just close the trails rather than actually manage them. Yeah I'm sure there are a few on our side, but they can't help.

One thing that really bugs me is this blanket phrase, "to protect resources." This is used pretty much any time there is a trail closure. What are these mythical resources of which they speak? It's not like we're riding in or next to a historically-significant excavation site, or some magical orchard, or anything else. IT'S DIRT AND SAGEBRUSH. Or trees. Rocks. Of which there are millions of them. "To protect resources" is just a catch-all.. political doublespeak... greenie bullcrap. It's because they can't come up with a valid reason other than, "because we said so."

I was curious so I Googled about ebikes and Whistler. They're banned from most of the good trails, and they have the nerve to say, "to protect natural resources." There's that phrase again. I call BS. Oh and something about protecting grizzly bears. Huh? I think grizzly bear vs emtb means grizzly is gonna win. More BS.

Society has been groomed by the over-the-top green movement and this needs to change or before long, there will be no public land and no need for any of our toys. We'll be restricted to high-rise apartments inside a city center and going into "nature" will mean a local city park. Leaving city limits will be prohibited. Think I'm kidding? That's their goal.

RobG you summed up the problem in the US pretty well. My post is about National Forest trail changes from non-motorized to motorized under the new regulations recently introduced by the USFS.

I want someone to tell me where the first National Forest trail is located that has been off limits to Ebikes previously and is now OK to ride with an Ebike under the new regulations.

 

[RebornRider]

I plan to visit Mammoth Mountain bike park in June. Mammoth is surrounded by Inyo National Forest. I should be able to find a ranger who can tell what they have planned for Inyo trails.

 

[RobG]

Mammoth should be fun!! And what's their position on eBikes?

 

[RebornRider]

Mammoth bike park is fine with ebikes. I've bought lessons twice, so park employees know I'm riding an ebike. All of the ebike feedback I've gotten there has been positive. In fact, I've never experienced "ebike hate" anywhere I've ridden. This will be my forth year there, although last year was cut short, first by broken ribs on day one, then by the massive wildfires that closed CA national forests when I went back after the ribs healed.

 

[johnf0246]

I plan to visit Mammoth Mountain bike park in June. Mammoth is surrounded by Inyo National Forest. I should be able to find a ranger who can tell what they have planned for Inyo trails.

Reborn I would appreciate you talking to an Inyo ranger to get a feel for that National Forest converting popular non-motorized trails to motorized trails. Please do a repost when you find out how the Inyo District Ranger feels about Ebikes in his or her forest.

 

[MountainBoy]

I just use clothes pins to attach playing cards so they make a motor noise when they rub on the spokes. The rangers are so stunned they don't notice my bike is an e-bike as I ride by. I think they are trying to figure out which rule the playing cards might be violating but they just draw a blank.

 

[RobG]

A well-placed zip-tie will do the same thing as the playing card... just place it so the end of the zip tie (that normally gets cut off) is hit by the spokes. That way you don't waste an otherwise good playing card.

 

[MountainBoy]

A well-placed zip-tie will do the same thing as the playing card... just place it so the end of the zip tie (that normally gets cut off) is hit by the spokes. That way you don't waste an otherwise good playing card.

A well-placed playing card has more volume, reverb and depth of tone. The goal is to get it to sound like an old-fashioned internal combustion motor. And don't worry about supply, once you have made one "spoke motor" you have at least 51 more to use without worry!

 

[RobG]

A well-placed playing card has more volume, reverb and depth of tone. The goal is to get it to sound like an old-fashioned internal combustion motor. And don't worry about supply, once you have made one "spoke motor" you have at least 51 more to use without worry!

Okay I'm curious... do you have a photo of how you place it? I may have to do this.

 

[MountainBoy]

Okay I'm curious... do you have a photo of how you place it? I may have to do this.

It was mostly a joke but most of us know how to do this from our childhood days. Unfortunately, most forks, chainstays and seatstays are too fat these days to use a standard clothespin like we did when we were kids so you might need a bigger clamp. You could probably poke two or four holes in the playing card and zip-tie the card to the chainstay or seatstay with one or two zipties such that the card flapped on the spokes.

 

[Gyre]

Mammoth should be fun!! And what's their position on eBikes?

Yeah, the catch is the nicer trails adjacent to the bike park are off-limits: Panorama Dome, Mammoth Rock, Mountain View.

 

[RobG]

Yeah, the catch is the nicer trails adjacent to the bike park are off-limits: Panorama Dome, Mammoth Rock, Mountain View.

Typical, much like Whistler. Except Whistler also has the balls to try to say it's also for "environmental" reasons and also something to do with Grizzly bears. Huh? Sounds like a load of crap to me.

 

[RobG]

Hmm, so I went over to the Mammoth website to read up on their policies, ready to fire off a fairly polite email of disappointment, until I found this in their FAQ:

Are eMTB's allowed?
Yes, class 1 pedal assist eMTB's are allowed on all of our mountain bike trails. Riders must follow the same rules as those on normal mountain bikes.

Furthermore: Pedal Assist eBikes | Mammoth Mountain

So maybe their policy has changed? Now I'm inclined to send an email expressing my surprise and pleasure over this.

 

[RebornRider]

I think I've already mentioned that there is no problem with emtbs within the bike park. I have ridden mine there for the past 3 years, and I've had lessons from two different bike park employees.

However, National Forest land outside of the bike park is a different story. That is what I'll ask about when I'm there in June.

Edit to say that the trails mentioned by Gyre are outside the bike park boundaries.

 

[Slowroller]

RobG you summed up the problem in the US pretty well. My post is about National Forest trail changes from non-motorized to motorized under the new regulations recently introduced by the USFS.

I want someone to tell me where the first National Forest trail is located that has been off limits to Ebikes previously and is now OK to ride with an Ebike under the new regulations.

Nowhere. Because each trail or area will require a NEPA at a minimum before it can be changed, which will take years and $$. I think it'll only happen in areas that have existing bike recreation as a high priority like ski towns. Add in that if you change the classification you're changing funding sources, some existing easement agreements and a host of other things that people don't want to deal with. It would only have been simple if they had changed the ebike classification from motorized to non-motorized.

 

[RobG]

Not that it'll do any good, but I sent an email to both of my state senators yesterday (Arizona) asking them to tell the USFS to allow ebikes on trails. I haven't gotten their canned response yet. I did it after realizing that all of the cool trails around Sedona are managed by the USFS and of course, off limits to us.

I've also been conversing with the Blue Ribbon Coalition (www.sharetrails.org), a big OHV advocacy group and they're also taking up the pro-ebike mantle on our behalf.

 

[johnf0246]

Not that it'll do any good, but I sent an email to both of my state senators yesterday (Arizona) asking them to tell the USFS to allow ebikes on trails. I haven't gotten their canned response yet. I did it after realizing that all of the cool trails around Sedona are managed by the USFS and of course, off limits to us.

I've also been conversing with the Blue Ribbon Coalition (www.sharetrails.org), a big OHV advocacy group and they're also taking up the pro-ebike mantle on our behalf.

Rob let us know when you find the first National Forest non-motorist trail in the US that has been changed to a motorist designated trail to accommodate Ebike use.

 

[urastus]

Unfortunately while our populations keep growing our leisure areas are decreasing, becoming smaller, and more congested. More congestion of our numbers in general has led to less tolerance. I think it will only get worse unless we can control our numbers (population). There is greater competition for those confined and limited leisure areas, just as there is for parking spaces and housing.

I imagine this is a world wide trend. We're seeing it here in Australia; intolerance between walkers, dog walkers, bike riders, motorbike riders, and those who make their living by cutting down the forests or destroy the forests in other ways (harvesting firewood). There's a fight going on now in the Derby area with forestry and the mtb / environmental crowd. The crazy thing is that our timber industry has always been subsidised - we're paying to have our forests destroyed. The mtb explosion here has been a huge money maker.

 

[RobG]

Despite what you might think, population is actually going to be decreasing. The birth rate in the US is down dramatically, and I saw a video recently talking about how China's population is about to nosedive due to their "one child" rule. Here in the US, the Baby Boomers are getting old and will be dying off in the near future.

But you're right in that tolerance is the problem... it seems everybody wants to hate on anybody doing something different. It's nuts. I could attempt to explain why I think this is the case, but it would take this thread in a very undesirable direction. I'll just say it sucks and it'd be nice if we could all just get along.

Slowroller mentioned changing the ebike classification from motorized to non-motorized. That might be our best way to solve this issue. Switching trails to "motorized" is a huge can of worms, and even though I enjoy OHV'ing as well as MTB, I don't want to see dirt bikes (or even bikes like the Sur Ron) on MTB trails.

 

[RickBullotta]

"It's better to ask for forgiveness than permission..."

 

[RobG]

"It's better to ask for forgiveness than permission..."

100% agree!!

Only problem I can see with that is in Utah, at least two places -- Moab and Park City, they've made it a Class B Misdemeanor to ride an ebike on their precious non-motorized trails. Penalty is six months in jail, a big fat fine, and loss of your bike. A bit extreme, I think.

 

[RickBullotta]

100% agree!!

Only problem I can see with that is in Utah, at least two places -- Moab and Park City, they've made it a Class B Misdemeanor to ride an ebike on their precious non-motorized trails. Penalty is six months in jail, a big fat fine, and loss of your bike. A bit extreme, I think.

Unlikely that would hold up in court if you're patient enough. Penalty is not commensurate with the crime...

 

[RobG]

Unlikely that would hold up in court if you're patient enough. Penalty is not commensurate with the crime...

True, but you'd still have to spend a bunch of money hiring an attorney to defend you.

 

[Gyre]

I think I've already mentioned that there is no problem with emtbs within the bike park. I have ridden mine there for the past 3 years, and I've had lessons from two different bike park employees.

However, National Forest land outside of the bike park is a different story. That is what I'll ask about when I'm there in June.

Edit to say that the trails mentioned by Gyre are outside the bike park boundaries.

Yes, class 1 is fine, but within park boundaries only.

I don't see how eMTB makes much sense mid-season when everything is open (why ride something so heavy and expensive?), but in the early season when your only option is the shuttle to F stop? In that situation IMHO pedal assist is much more fun even if the downhill performance suffers a bit.

Let us know what you hear from the National Forest folks. It would be a really nice change if we could get cleared for the nearby trails.

 

[RebornRider]

I don't see how eMTB makes much sense mid-season when everything is open (why ride something so heavy and expensive?), ...

Well, it's the only bike I have.
I don't think the weight makes much difference given my skill level (barely into intermediate, but I do like me some jumps). OTOH, sometimes I worry about the theft risk when I leave it unattended for a bio-break.

Back to our regularly-scheduled program ...

 

[RobG]

Everybody I've talked to says that ebikes kick ass on downhill runs. I'm like RebornRider in terms of skill level, maybe not even up to that point just yet. For theft, I agree... I went ahead and insured mine. Got liability and also medical payments (since I don't have health insurance). Still though, I'd rather it NOT get stolen since finding another one could be challenging.

 

[johnf0246]

100% agree!!

Only problem I can see with that is in Utah, at least two places -- Moab and Park City, they've made it a Class B Misdemeanor to ride an ebike on their precious non-motorized trails. Penalty is six months in jail, a big fat fine, and loss of your bike. A bit extreme, I think.

Rob do you have ANY actual evidence that Ebikes have been issued in those two locations? I doubt you do.