Untouched E8000 Red-flagged by shop as tampered

[JC62]

2018 Merida was taken into shop for general service and firmware update (first since 2018 as my phone would never connect to the bike. I'm the original owner). Shop says the bike has been tampered with, it is an illegal bike, and will not be able to be serviced by any Shimano service centre in the future. It's out of warranty so no issues there, but the bike has NEVER been derestricted. As an emergency services worker I've always strongly advocated against derestriction, so this is all quite ironic. I put shorter cranks on it and lost a magnet a couple of years ago, but that's it. Any ideas?

I just want to thank everyone for their input and support on this issue. It has been resolved by the shop where I originally bought the bike (they have committed to servicing the bike into the future). My friend needed no encouragement to go to them instead of the bike shop mentioned above!

 

[DJ57UMP]

It's all fair and well them saying it's been tampered with but did they say what has been tampered with?

Also, I don't think all bike shops are the same... some seem better or more supportive than others...

 

[JC62]

It's all fair and well them saying it's been tampered with but did they say what has been tampered with?

Also, I don't think all bike shops are the same... some seem better or more supportive than others...

Thanks for your interest. This problem has arisen after I sold the bike to a mate who knows nothing about bikes and he took it in for a service and firmware update. They reckon it's been derestricted at some point. They didn't specify how...'"Computer says...". Only problem is, I'm the original owner and I never derestricted it.... I'm in my 60's...old enough to be concerned about the legalities. Trying to determine if anyone else has had similar issues after a magnet falling off, or after installing shorter cranks...(or anything)!

 

[dobbyhasfriends]

100% this is the reason I wont buy any shimano motor'd ebike, this is a familiar story..
of course, your mate might have derestricted it?

 

[JC62]

100% this is the reason I wont buy any shimano motor'd ebike, this is a familiar story..
of course, your mate might have derestricted it?

Thanks. I have another mate who had huge issues with the E8000 on his Sam...error codes, multiple shut-downs in the middle of nowhere, multiple trips to the bike shop with no resolution. Took Shimano a year or so to admit the motor was faulty. You're right...I've heard a lot of stories as well, come to think of it. The mate I sold the bike to is completely new to bikes and he's pretty upset about the bike shop treating him like a criminal...his modding it did cross my mind fleetingly, but I strongly doubt he would have known anything about derestricting. And I'm sure he would be honest with me...We know each other pretty well.

 

[Mikerb]

I can only think the shorter cranks changed the software's expected ratio of cadence and torque v power output?? Some warranties are invalid if you fit any non standard kit to the bike albeit in most cases noone is to know or care...but if it throws up a "tampering" code on the software ( justified or not) it is of course a different issue.

 

[JC62]

I can only think the shorter cranks changed the software's expected ratio of cadence and torque v power output?? Some warranties are invalid if you fit any non standard kit to the bike albeit in most cases noone is to know or care...but if it throws up a "tampering" code on the software ( justified or not) it is of course a different issue.

Thanks mate. I considered this initially but came to think that you're still pedalling the same revs regardless of crank length. You may be right about torque though. They said the bike had been 'over speed'...having read a few posts I see this has happened to others during warranty claims. The difference here is the bike is well out of warranty and the motor has always run perfectly. All he wanted was the latest firmware upgrade I advised him to get. They even told him it was a stolen bike despite me giving him the original receipt!! I'm going to discuss all this with my original retailer then may go to Shimano.

 

[Coolcmsc]

This is terrible…
Here’s what I think. To persuade, it’s too long, but that’s me
1. It may be the lbs simply doesn’t understand their software.
2. As said already, another lbs may take a different view and help you. But once somebody formally informs the manufacturer of suspected derestriction, legally, everything changes for the manufacturer. Try and avoid going there.
3. Generally, it’s not in anybody’s interests, including the manufacturer, to make this type of fuss. They just don’t want to know, unless they don’t like a customer or the police are involved. What’s not written down didn’t happen, so bikes keep being sold, the press continues not to pick at the politics of motorised bikes (unlike they do for scooters) and the world keeps going round.
4. But because the police do sometimes get involved, everything’s recorded, should back-covering becomes the priority.
5. The majority of ‘derestricted’ bikes that go to an lbs pass though without a problem. You know that. Logic makes that plain. Lots say that’s because there’s a bunch of simple tricks to disguise derestriction. It’s not due to that, it’s simply because it’s not in the best interests of the lbs to fuss. No room to explain why here. But make no mistake, whilst debated by some, these motors systems do keep a log of what’s been happening which includes derestriction of one type or another.
6. And now to what may have happened. You’ve already guessed. It’s that speed sensor. I don’t know your bike well, but some (usually older) e-bikes can be ridden above their legal limit if the speed sensor is disabled (somebody’s posted today about that - their motor’s no longer working after whizzing round at 50kph). Perhaps the bike was ridden, or you tried to ride it, with the magnet out. Most bikes would record that. Some would not record it specifically - so not specifically as a magnet falling out, but as something that might be due to tampering (that it might be due to something else is not recorded and the lbs/manufacturer likes it that way as it leaves the door open to interpret as they see fit).
7. This is why you need a decent lbs to help you. Some will recognise the fault they find on the computer could easily be due to that magnet. Take along the invoice for buying the new magnet. That good lbs will make a judgement that an old bloke with an honest face is probably telling the truth (I’m 65, so I can say that!).
8. They’ll likely make a judgement that the best way forward is to see that somebody who’s brought a bike in for just a service and firmware update will continue to do that and become an important source of easy profit over coming years if treated well.
9. Its highly unlikely that an lbs would have the resources or the will to defend a case in the Apr-roster court. You’re in Aus. Here in the U.K., it’s the County Court (small claims). So, you could go there for the costs of a new motor. You’d win by default, but you’d have to go at least to the arbitration step in the U.K. (or whatever in Aus) and probably court. They have no evidence that you have used the bike illegally - that’s why a busy badly run lbs would just back down once court is involved, service the bike and do the upgrade. The manufacturer will run a country mile if the lbs tries to involve them.
10. Hopefully, put like that, it’s clear now that most lbs will not muck a good customer about in this situation.

 

[Mabman]

According to this screen grab from Bikes-EU it is only going to get worse, or better depending on which side of the screen you read.....

 

[Coolcmsc]

According to this screen grab from Bikes-EU it is only going to get worse, or better depending on which side of the screen you read.....



View attachment 78587

Indeed! I’m certain that in the U.K. good lbs’ are preferring calm waters with their regulars until that’s all resolved. They do their best to work with the reports they see from bikes. A spooked lbs or one that’s not very good with getting to know its ‘regulars’ won’t (the minority in the U.K.).
Perhaps someone from the US that actually knows the lbs industry over there could explain how things are going with the type of bike in the BMW statement (R pic). I’m not well versed for the US, but I understand that legislation and insurance companies in many states are getting experienced with legal user control over which ‘legislative mode’ a bike is reported by the user to have been in when it runs over and injures a vulnerable person…

 

[JC62]

This is terrible…
Here’s what I think. To persuade, it’s too long, but that’s me
1. It may be the lbs simply doesn’t understand their software.
2. As said already, another lbs may take a different view and help you. But once somebody formally informs the manufacturer of suspected derestriction, legally, everything changes for the manufacturer. Try and avoid going there.
3. Generally, it’s not in anybody’s interests, including the manufacturer, to make this type of fuss. They just don’t want to know, unless they don’t like a customer or the police are involved. What’s not written down didn’t happen, so bikes keep being sold, the press continues not to pick at the politics of motorised bikes (unlike they do for scooters) and the world keeps going round.
4. But because the police do sometimes get involved, everything’s recorded, should back-covering becomes the priority.
5. The majority of ‘derestricted’ bikes that go to an lbs pass though without a problem. You know that. Logic makes that plain. Lots say that’s because there’s a bunch of simple tricks to disguise derestriction. It’s not due to that, it’s simply because it’s not in the best interests of the lbs to fuss. No room to explain why here. But make no mistake, whilst debated by some, these motors systems do keep a log of what’s been happening which includes derestriction of one type or another.
6. And now to what may have happened. You’ve already guessed. It’s that speed sensor. I don’t know your bike well, but some (usually older) e-bikes can be ridden above their legal limit if the speed sensor is disabled (somebody’s posted today about that - their motor’s no longer working after whizzing round at 50kph). Perhaps the bike was ridden, or you tried to ride it, with the magnet out. Most bikes would record that. Some would not record it specifically - so not specifically as a magnet falling out, but as something that might be due to tampering (that it might be due to something else is not recorded and the lbs/manufacturer likes it that way as it leaves the door open to interpret as they see fit).
7. This is why you need a decent lbs to help you. Some will recognise the fault they find on the computer could easily be due to that magnet. Take along the invoice for buying the new magnet. That good lbs will make a judgement that an old bloke with an honest face is probably telling the truth (I’m 65, so I can say that!).
8. They’ll likely make a judgement that the best way forward is to see that somebody who’s brought a bike in for just a service and firmware update will continue to do that and become an important source of easy profit over coming years if treated well.
9. Its highly unlikely that an lbs would have the resources or the will to defend a case in the Apr-roster court. You’re in Aus. Here in the U.K., it’s the County Court (small claims). So, you could go there for the costs of a new motor. You’d win by default, but you’d have to go at least to the arbitration step in the U.K. (or whatever in Aus) and probably court. They have no evidence that you have used the bike illegally - that’s why a busy badly run lbs would just back down once court is involved, service the bike and do the upgrade. The manufacturer will run a country mile if the lbs tries to involve them.
10. Hopefully, put like that, it’s clear now that most lbs will not muck a good customer about in this situation.

Thanks for the solid work you put into your response sir! Today I went to the lbs I originally bought the bike from. They are part of the same chain of stores that my mate took the bike to. The chap I spoke to had actually worked in the other store and I was quite surprised when he freely admitted that they had issues there. He agreed that the Shimano's often throw up codes for dubious reasons, or are faulty, and agreed that losing a magnet while riding may well have caused it. He also said he couldn't care less about the code and told me to get my mate to bring the bike down any time for servicing. I bought the second magnet there too and they generally have everything on file...thanks for that suggestion. He also emphasised that the bike is legal if it's not derestricted. Hopefully the matter is resolved now or will at least rest peacefully.

 

[Coolcmsc]

Excellent!
And thanks for posting this positive experience here on the understandably divisive topic of alleged derestriction and/or tampering.
Your example is much more representative in my real-world experience than is sometimes reported here and elsewhere.
Happy riding for your friend - and you! - over the holiday break

 

[JC62]

Excellent!
And thanks for posting this positive experience here on the understandably divisive topic of alleged derestriction and/or tampering.
Your example is much more representative in my real-world experience than is sometimes reported here and elsewhere.
Happy riding for your friend - and you! - over the holiday break

Very best wishes to you too sir!

 

[Cyclopath1000]

1. Shimano doesn't stand squarely behind it's e bike problems. My battery saga is proof enough. The part of the negative battery lead copper hat plugs to the metal prongs cracked and those slugs don't even stock a $5 part.
2. Never update e8000 firmware.

 

[malc101]

Weird, I can’t think of a single small business that would chase away a high end customer on a technicality that can’t be proven. They must have a really poorly trained employee to do that. A more common response would be informing the customer only and if it is automatically reported during the upgrade say that the bike shows no evidence of tampering. And once out of warrantee why would shimano care? .A smart shop would say, “hey,take our new demo bike out for a ride while we work in this. “.

 

[Aleksius]

My two cents on E8000 and Focus SAM2.

E8000 when my derestricted unit was replaced, the shop said there’s zero coding in it to detect tampering. Shimano sent them a new one no questions asked. I had used software to change the wheel diameter and this and that on it such as assist levels. At the same time the software couldn’t bypass Shimanos hardcoded limits but in any case the bike went more thab 25kph as a result.

Happened to be SAM2 that died in the middle of nowhere with the original and replaced drive unit. Drive unit went bust nonetheless but later it turned out the power button was faulty. Basically you could wiggle the cables to make it work in a pinch. Replaced on warranty again no questions asked.

No intention to ruffle any feathers, honest description of what happened and info I got from a shop during

 

[Coolcmsc]

My two cents on E8000 and Focus SAM2.

E8000 when my derestricted unit was replaced, the shop said there’s zero coding in it to detect tampering. Shimano sent them a new one no questions asked. I had used software to change the wheel diameter and this and that on it such as assist levels. At the same time the software couldn’t bypass Shimanos hardcoded limits but in any case the bike went more thab 25kph as a result.

Happened to be SAM2 that died in the middle of nowhere with the original and replaced drive unit. Drive unit went bust nonetheless but later it turned out the power button was faulty. Basically you could wiggle the cables to make it work in a pinch. Replaced on warranty again no questions asked.

No intention to ruffle any feathers, honest description of what happened and info I got from a shop during

Sounds exactly what the two best LBS’s in my area would say. Why would they say any different. A customer might quote them on a forum and they’re in the business of attracting customers.

 

[Coolcmsc]

Thanks. Hearing from friends and on reading forums, I agree on your first point. Your second point is probably a good idea...I never updated it while I had it and had zero issues.

Look, such a tempting conclusion.
But we don’t hear from all those they support nor from all those they don’t.
Boring I know, but we don’t know the numbers, only what we hear hear and elsewhere.
So, very bad news for Shimano.
Also, a great reason to support every customer.
But to imply they never help, we don’t know that.

 

[JC62]

Weird, I can’t think of a single small business that would chase away a high end customer on a technicality that can’t be proven. They must have a really poorly trained employee to do that. A more common response would be informing the customer only and if it is automatically reported during the upgrade say that the bike shows no evidence of tampering. And once out of warrantee why would shimano care? .A smart shop would say, “hey,take our new demo bike out for a ride while we work in this. “.

Yep. All very strange and counterproductive. And for them to suggest the bike was stolen before they even looked at it (and when my mate had the original receipt) is even more bizarre.

 

[JC62]

Look, such a tempting conclusion.
But we don’t hear from all those they support nor from all those they don’t.
Boring I know, but we don’t know the numbers, only what we hear hear and elsewhere.
So, very bad news for Shimano.
Also, a great reason to support every customer.
But to imply they never help, we don’t know that.

Good point. I'll back-pedal a little. Just a bad taste in my mouth right now. All brands have issues from time to time. I think the main issue here was with the individual shop, or even the individual staff member (or even my mate...I got it all from him).

 

[JC62]

My two cents on E8000 and Focus SAM2.

E8000 when my derestricted unit was replaced, the shop said there’s zero coding in it to detect tampering. Shimano sent them a new one no questions asked. I had used software to change the wheel diameter and this and that on it such as assist levels. At the same time the software couldn’t bypass Shimanos hardcoded limits but in any case the bike went more thab 25kph as a result.

Happened to be SAM2 that died in the middle of nowhere with the original and replaced drive unit. Drive unit went bust nonetheless but later it turned out the power button was faulty. Basically you could wiggle the cables to make it work in a pinch. Replaced on warranty again no questions asked.

No intention to ruffle any feathers, honest description of what happened and info I got from a shop during

Thanks. That's very interesting. I'm now thinking this more of an issue with this individual shop.

 

[Gyre]

It wouldn't make any sense for a magnet falling off to be treated as a "derestricting" event. The bike no longer knows the speed, so it either shouldn't provide any power or at most it should provide a few watts to limp around with. If it lets you beat the speed limit because the magnet isn't being detected that's a design flaw on the engineers, not a fault for you.

Similar thing with crank length changes: the worst that happens is that you put a longer crank on and the computer sees more torque at the spindle that it would expect with the stock crank length. At worst, you milk out a little extra assistance ratio, but it wouldn't have anything to do with beating a speed restriction.

 

[Rusty]

I expect it is possibly a cse of that LBS knowing bugger all about ebikes, or not knowing how to drive the software correctly. My LBS tells me they have seen all sorts of warnings on new bikes they have just unpacked and built up, wanting to do firmware updates prior to putrting it on the floor. Usually is whoever is doing it has selected a wrong option.

 

[Coolcmsc]

I expect it is possibly a cse of that LBS knowing bugger all about ebikes, or not knowing how to drive the software correctly. My LBS tells me they have seen all sorts of warnings on new bikes they have just unpacked and built up, wanting to do firmware updates prior to putrting it on the floor. Usually is whoever is doing it has selected a wrong option.

And if you’ve seen these codes on the laptop software, you’ll know the language is all set out in ambiguous words.
I’ve already speculated why that might be earlier in this thread. So, this time in support of the manufacturers - Shimano here, but the software logs are similar for them all - there aren’t many sensors in these systems.