Unanswered tyre verses roots

[ccrdave]

Does anybody have any suggestion for tyres that will cope with wet roots? I realize none of them will do a proper job but some must be better than others!
At the moment I am running 2.6 hillbillies and they are brilliant in the mud but absolutely lethal on wet wood

 

[Gary]

it's not just the tyre mate. it's technique too.
Having said that though, an open tread design with tall spikes is the worst tread design to grip roots but the best design to offer grip in mud.
By all means buy the softest compound you can and run lowest pressures you can get away with and this will help ANY tyre find a little more grip. But ultimately you should be looking to rethink your root riding strategy.

 

[ccrdave]

Thanks Gary, yep understood the technique bit and i know my skill is crap but learning is painful lol.
Had an off this morning on a log drop which sits diagonal to a very narrow bit of trail and i cant hit it square on. Its had me off three times now, in the dry its a breeze but when its wet!!!

 

[Dax]

I generally run HR2s on my regular bike for this very situation, they’re not great at any on thing, but cope ok with wet mud, wet roots, hard pack, etc.

 

[Gary]

Thanks Gary, yep understood the technique bit and i know my skill is crap but learning is painful lol.
Had an off this morning on a log drop which sits diagonal to a very narrow bit of trail and i cant hit it square on. Its had me off three times now, in the dry its a breeze but when its wet!!!

If you're sure you can't hit it square on even with creative line choice is there an option to pre-jump it? (difficult to give any advice without knowing the obsticle or lay of the land etc.)
If not going light is probably your safest approach. this involves the same technique as a bunnyhop but the aim isn't to make height... you're pre-loading the bike so it's unweighted as your wheels cross the slippy root/rock etc and momentum will carry you over while your wheels aren't really weighted so not pushing against the slippy object. Possibly hard to explain in words but it's how good riders make the impossible (off camber rootgardens etc) look easy to ride. The timing and pre-load are slightly different if clipped in Vs on flats but it's still the same basic concept.
Practice this somewhere safe and gradually take it to more consequential situations.

How are your jumping skills? this is going to sound odd but getting comfortable with going sideways, drifting, scrubbing and in the air really helps with confidence going sideways when it's super slippy too.

 

[ccrdave]

Good advice but i lack the skill. Its quite a steep entry, to get the front wheel up on the tree i have to lift or at least unweiught it, i can get the front to hit it square but its always the rear that washes out, weighted or unweighted it just slips sideways and lays the bike over

 

[Gary]

practice your bunnyhop technique.Like loads. every single ride. it's the same basic pre-load skill you need to unweight your rear wheel. depending on the situation you can sometimes initiate the rear lifting by tyre tapping the front (this is quite advanced but not half as hard as it sounds)

 

[khorn]

Dave,

In my riding area it is mainly forest and there are so many roots lying on the ground. Also their angle to the riding path is very irregular. I’m running Maxxis Ardent 29x2.4 in the front and Ardent Race 2.35 in the back. Both tires are the 3C max speed compound and they are doing incredible well on wet roots. They are by no means the best for very muddy trails but actually do quite well as they tend to dig into the mud and gaining grip. Also, they roll quite good and they give me confidence on my wet slippery trails.

Karsten

 

[Rob Rides EMTB]

I’ve just gone back to the Maxxis Minion 3C MaxxGrip on the front with the regular dual ply Exo on the rear. I’ll keep this combo for the winter.

Reduced front pressure down to around 18 psi and yesterday it performed very very well. Beware though it’s an extremely draggy DH tyre, but extremely grippy.

Also agree on @Gary advice regarding technique, mine has a long way to go but finding lifting the front wheel over or square on rollers are helping reduce slip.

 

[Gary]

dual ply Exo

Noticed you said this in one of your last videos Rob

Dual ply means a 2 ply (thicker) much heavier/tougher casing for DH racing
Exo is a reinforced much ligher single ply casing - slightly more protective than single ply but not by much
You can't have a "dual ply exo" as they're both descriptions of different tyre casing construction.

What I think you mean is Dual compound, which is harder wearing and faster rolling but less grippy than a draggy super soft/grippy 3C Maxxgrip.

Maxxis tyre casings and grippiness used to be so much simpler when they simply printed the casing type (single or dual ply) and durometer (hardness) of the rubber on them 70a was hard fast rolling for XC, 60a a bit softer but still rolled really well, 50a a halfway house between a DH racing tyre and a 60a, then 42a (which was referred to as supertacky) and 40a which was referred to as slow reezay as it was so soft it rebounded slower and aided grip more but offered less suport)

Hope this helps

 

[ccrdave]

I realise that my main problem is skill or lack off but in the forest where i ride it can get very deep thick mud as well as loads of roots so im trying to find a tyre thats a good compromise between the two. I also only have 27.5 wheels at the moment so i need a fairy large tyre to keep the BB where it should be 2.4-2.6

 

[nickthebee]

Does anybody have any suggestion for tyres that will cope with wet roots? I realize none of them will do a proper job but some must be better than others!
At the moment I am running 2.6 hillbillies and they are brilliant in the mud but absolutely lethal on wet wood

hit it faster

 

[Gary]

What do you mean?
You're running 27.5 wheels in a 29er frame/fork?
What bike is that?

Low BBs just need more planning to hold momnetum through technical terrain, the flipside is they offer a great deal of benefit in cornering and stability. without killing maneouverabilty as much as a massively long wheelbase does.

 

[Gary]

hit it faster

Be careful with that advice. I have 3 more kids than I planned to from following that thinking.

 

[ccrdave]

Its a turbo levo sold with 27.5 wheels and 2.8 tyres but compatible with 29 as well. 2.8 tyres are horrid but much smaller than 2.5 and the bb starts to get a bit too low. Mind you if i hit that dammed tree the the motor it might not slip

 

[Timbo]

Had an off this morning on a log drop which sits diagonal to a very narrow bit of trail and i cant hit it square on. Its had me off three times now, in the dry its a breeze but when its wet!!!

Chainsaw

 

[ccrdave]

Chainsaw

Haha believe me i have considered it

 

[Gary]

Its a turbo levo sold with 27.5 wheels and 2.8 tyres but compatible with 29 as well. 2.8 tyres are horrid but much smaller than 2.5 and the bb starts to get a bit too low.

It doesn't
Even with 2.3s the old skool turbo levo doesn't have a genuinely low BB
it has a BB drop of 18mm which for a 29er is high, with 27.5 plus tyres it's still high, normal 27.5s and it becomes lower but not what I'd call low for a 125m travel bike at all.

You probably just need to plan your pedal strokes further in advance... i's well easy to ignore this and just pedal like a muppet with power assist.. . hence all the short crank crowd riding round oblivious to the benefits of a normal sized crank arm weighted while cornering.
It's a muscle memory thing (ie. not something you need to think about once you're used to it)... drop anyone's BB and they'll start to make mistakes in judgement until their new calibration kicks in and replaces that old muscle memory

 

[nickthebee]

I realise that my main problem is skill or lack off but in the forest where i ride it can get very deep thick mud as well as loads of roots so im trying to find a tyre thats a good compromise between the two. I also only have 27.5 wheels at the moment so i need a fairy large tyre to keep the BB where it should be 2.4-2.6

sound bad try henley if you want i send you the gpx file

 

[ccrdave]

Thanks mate but Henley is a bit far, i can get in the forest if dean by riding out my back garden gate

 

[ccrdave]

It doesn't
Even with 2.3s the old skool turbo levo doesn't have a genuinely low BB
it has a BB drop of 18mm which for a 29er is high, with 27.5 plus tyres it's still high, normal 27.5s and it becomes lower but not what I'd call low for a 125m travel bike at all.

You probably just need to plan your pedal strokes further in advance... i's well easy to ignore this and just pedal like a muppet with power assist.. . hence all the short crank crowd riding round oblivious to the benefits of a normal sized crank arm weighted while cornering.
It's a muscle memory thing (ie. not something you need to think about once you're used to it)... drop anyone's BB and they'll start to make mistakes in judgement until their new calibration kicks in and replaces that old muscle memory

Mine is 150mm travel and im not worried about the bb drop im just more worried about height off the ground, as you know its bit different when there is a motor in the way.
I do agree about the skill thing and i realise improved skill will fix my problem but that wont come overnight a better tyre would!

 

[nickthebee]

Mine is 150mm travel and im not worried about the bb drop im just more worried about height off the ground, as you know its bit different when there is a motor in the way.
I do agree about the skill thing and i realise improved skill will fix my problem but that wont come overnight a better tyre would!

to be honest tyres won't help you on roots at all

 

[Gary]

It's still BB drop which dictates BB height (obvs depending on tyre diameter too). and ultimately chainring/crank/motor clearance too.
If yours has 150mm travel from a longer shock the bb height at sag will be slightly higher.
If it's from a longer stroke but same length shock it'll be slightly lower at sag and up to an inch lower when bottomed out.
Anyway my point is the Levo IMO still isn't a particularly low bike.
The motors on Emtbs generally leave about the same amount of ground clearance as a decent sized front chainring OG would (38t ish)
Unless we're talking about high speed multiple hit root gardens when riding roots with the bike unweighted the shock should be sitting around sag height and just getting into midstroke when hitting a square (or root shaped) edge and only compressing beyond that when pre-loaded which needs timed correctly approaching the roots you want the wheels to lightly roll over.

As for a new tyre being the only quick fix. I disagree. Increased understanding of the problem and how to approach it actually can come instantaniously. You know... that lightbulb moment when you figure out the good line you've never taken on a tricky but familiar part of trail? Yeah? maybe even when folloing another rider. like that? Puting a newly learned skill into practice and it working out for you can also be an instant revelation. and incredibly satisfying moment.
Yes you have to work (mentally and physically) at improving but it's simly never going to happen if you rely 100% on fixes such as bigger grippier tyres. So no matter what improved traction tyre you end up buying do yourself a favour and also have a think about how you're approaching the issue on the trail. spend an hour or two sessioning it if needs be, Even if you don't figure it out it's still gotta be more fun than fitting tyres at home

2.6 hillbillies at the pressures most folk run them at and in the soft gripton compound will be a hell of a lot grippier on wet roots than the tyre and pressure I tend to run on the rear all year round. Your only real option to improve traction on wet roots is to go for an even wider tyre with less spiked tread and run lower pressures.
Something like a 2.8 DHRII in 3C MAXXGRIP would fill thoes shoes but it'll be hella draggy and not so good in soft/muddy conditions. Magic Mary 2.8 in the softest conditions might be marginally better than the hillbilly while still being a great mud tyre.
Neither would be my choice ever though. Infact I'd rather walk the tricky root section. But that's just me

 

[steve_sordy]

The only thing more slippy than a bald wet root is wet ice, so you have to be super careful. I ride in the woods all year round and I face roots of all kinds on a regular basis. They come one at a time and in multiples, every angle from 0 to 180, and every height from just under the soil to a foot off the ground. The absolute best tyre I have found is the Continental Trail King with the black chilli compound (VERY important, the BCC). I'm on a clockwork bike at the moment and I use the 2.2" wide. but they come in 2.4" and 2.6" sizes. The widths are true but the diameter measures slightly large. My 27.5 measures 27.75" on a 30mm internal rim width and 24psi rear and 22ps front, run tubeless, riding weight 14.5 stone (203 lbs, 92kg)

I have been keeping my eye on the "which tyre" thread, ready for when my eBike with the 29x2.6" tyres turns up. If those Maxxis Rekon 2.6 3C EXO TR don't perform, I know what I'll be getting!

 

[ccrdave]

Thanks Gary good advice as usual
I am going to session it
I am going to try a different tyre
I am going to try and improve my skills
For the record i have tried 2.8 MMs they are horrid in mud but 2.6 is a good tyre and in my opinion better than the spesh hillbilly but a lot more money i guess

 

[steve_sordy]

Ref my previous post. I have done a more thorough check rather than just rely on Mr Google. Conti don't do a Trail King in 29x2.6, gutted! My apologies for that error.

It gets worse! Despite seeing references to the 2.6" project and references to 2.6" in selected tyres. I can't actually find any! Double gutted.

 

[Gary]

For the record i have tried 2.8 MMs they are horrid in mud

Yeah. TBH I don't really understand why anyone would want any mtb tyres that wide nevermind a mud tread.
Was that on an Ebike or regular plus mtb?
What did you find so terrible about it?
Did you find it floated over the mud too much?
Too much rebound at supportive pressures and too little support at low pressures. I know finding the presure sweetspot on most plus tyres is pretty important or you can end up with one or the other of those bad traits.
or was it how much mud it held increasing the already substantial weight and drag?

 

[ccrdave]

It just floated about on the mud at some points there was no traction at all. I tried different pressures low pressure it would wallow about, high pressure and it would just skate about. It was on my ebike, i wouldnt dream of putting tyres that size on a me powered bike

 

[Gary]

Aye, classic plus tyre traits.
Just some of the many reasons I can't stand them.

 

[nickthebee]

It's still BB drop which dictates BB height (obvs depending on tyre diameter too). and ultimately chainring/crank/motor clearance too.
If yours has 150mm travel from a longer shock the bb height at sag will be slightly higher.
If it's from a longer stroke but same length shock it'll be slightly lower at sag and up to an inch lower when bottomed out.
Anyway my point is the Levo IMO still isn't a particularly low bike.
The motors on Emtbs generally leave about the same amount of ground clearance as a decent sized front chainring OG would (38t ish)
Unless we're talking about high speed multiple hit root gardens when riding roots with the bike unweighted the shock should be sitting around sag height and just getting into midstroke when hitting a square (or root shaped) edge and only compressing beyond that when pre-loaded which needs timed correctly approaching the roots you want the wheels to lightly roll over.

As for a new tyre being the only quick fix. I disagree. Increased understanding of the problem and how to approach it actually can come instantaniously. You know... that lightbulb moment when you figure out the good line you've never taken on a tricky but familiar part of trail? Yeah? maybe even when folloing another rider. like that? Puting a newly learned skill into practice and it working out for you can also be an instant revelation. and incredibly satisfying moment.
Yes you have to work (mentally and physically) at improving but it's simly never going to happen if you rely 100% on fixes such as bigger grippier tyres. So no matter what improved traction tyre you end up buying do yourself a favour and also have a think about how you're approaching the issue on the trail. spend an hour or two sessioning it if needs be, Even if you don't figure it out it's still gotta be more fun than fitting tyres at home

2.6 hillbillies at the pressures most folk run them at and in the soft gripton compound will be a hell of a lot grippier on wet roots than the tyre and pressure I tend to run on the rear all year round. Your only real option to improve traction on wet roots is to go for an even wider tyre with less spiked tread and run lower pressures.
Something like a 2.8 DHRII in 3C MAXXGRIP would fill thoes shoes but it'll be hella draggy and not so good in soft/muddy conditions. Magic Mary 2.8 in the softest conditions might be marginally better than the hillbilly while still being a great mud tyre.
Neither would be my choice ever though. Infact I'd rather walk the tricky root section. But that's just me

few i was wrong an normal