Tubeless tape... wtf am I doing wrong?

[emtbPhil]

I'll start this by saying I'm 42, I'm a good mechanic, spent 20 years building track & race cars. I have a garage FULL of bike tools and I'm happy doing jobs like dropping motors out to repair wiring, changing forks, everything really...

However I have my flame proof suit on and I'm more than happy to get some "you bloody idiot" comments cos this is driving me mad

Only been MTB'ing for 18 months - went to a tubeless setup on my first emtb hardtail, then again on my full sus. Today just got new tyres so ripped my old ones out and redid it. EVERY TIME I apply the tape I have the same issue..

It pisses air out the spokes!

I tried last year with muc-off tape, 30mm (inside dimension is 30mm), it refused to really go down into the recess where the spoke holes are and I guess as such pissed air out the spokes. I went through a whole roll of tape trying both wheels twice, gave up and used gorilla tape. With the gorilla tape it went into the recess easily, still leaked air out the spokes but after a day I guess the liquid gunked it up enough to stop and worked fine for a year.

Then I got the full suspension bike, bought new tyres, bought a roll of muc off tape - exactly the same issue, threw the whole lot in the bin and put gorilla tape on.
This time I've had to remove the gorilla tape to swap tyres and it took an entire day of swearing and a litre of isopropyl alcohol to get the gunk off that the gorilla tape left behind and most of the spoke holes were gunked up with sealant.
So I decided to try "doing it properly again"
This time bought Stans tape just for a change and went 33mm as the LBS (who bent me over for £22 for the tape) told me to go a few mm wider.
Same issue, tape is rigid as hell, no stretch, refuses to go into the recess.

I even tried this time putting the tape on, then putting the tyres on with an inner tube and pumping to 50psi and leaving them an hour in the hope that the inner tube would push the tape into the recess but nahhhh still pissing air out the spokes.

I threw sealant in both and slammed the garage door to the sound of hissing behind me, no doubt tomorrow I'll have to tear them all off and use gorilla tape again. But going through £100+ of tape kits to always end up in the bin is making me think I'm doing something wrong.

To be clear :-
- I remove old tape
- Clean thoroughly with glue remover and isopropyl alcohol, making sure they're dry
- Apply the tape starting a spoke over from the valve, pulling tight as I go (I have also tried thumbing the tape into the recess rather than pulling tight but just end up with wrinkles, tears and air pockets galore)
- Insert the valve
- Fit the tyre
- Pump up to pop the tyre onto the beads
- Remove air, fill with sealant
- Pump back up to desired pressure.

Any help mucho appreciated

 

[Funkeydunk]

In my opinion (which counts for nowt) it could be one of three things:
1) there is a fine crack in the rim where the weld seam is.
2) the hole your making for the valve is split bigger than the valve so the air pisses past the valve.
3) you’ve pealed back the tape putting the tyre on.

my bet would be on number 2. I make a hole with a soldering iron and screw the valve through the tape, then put a dab of sealant round the base of the valve befor I tightened it up. I do feel your pain. Oh and stans tape is shit.

bonus point could be that they’re not tubeless rims.

 

[emtbPhil]

Hahha I should have mentioned that - they're tubeless rims and tubeless tyres
The valve hole I make a tiny prick and then screw the valve through with the rubber bung provided acting as a seal.

The leaking spokes are seemingly random - I will admit the 2 either side of the valve always seem to leak but today I've got 3 on the opposite side of the rim leaking as well :|

The wheels are Alex EX30's - came with my Cube Hybrid Stereo 140 if that helps

I did see a guide from Stans that said to use 20mm tape, do one side first so it falls into the recess then transition over to the other side... but I've never seen a youtube video or anyone else have to do that

 

[RustyMTB]

Some wheels are worse than others. Persistence is a virtue & you'll have better luck removing tape residue with GT85 or WD40. Cheaper too.

I did a tyre this week that cost me two hours just to seat on the bead. Tubeless can be frustrating. On the spoke leaks, I have had success in the past filling the bath a few inches & using it to quickly find the leaks. Then bouncing & jiggling the wheel in order to get sealant into the leaking spokes.

 

[Riggs]

I feel your pain ,I have the same rims and had the same issues it was almost always the valve , I have muc off valves and was using the wrong rubber adapter as they come with a few different shapes to fit different rims , and I either had the valve too tight or too loose.
Also I use t rex gaffer tape from b&q and make sure it gets right down into the groove , you need to kind of fold the tape back on itself as you pull it round pressing it in with your finger as you go.

 

[emtbPhil]

I'm glad it's not just me - these rims are a nightmare

I think I'll probably just give up and gorilla tape them again and just live with 6 hours of glue removal next time the tyres come off

 

[Jackware]

I've always used gaffer tape and bought a width that ensures it goes up the inner lip of the rim on both sides so it's effectively held there by the tyre. (This also negates any issues with riveted rims and joints).

I've also used a 20mm square of inner tube rubber to make a larger 'washer' to push the valve through before it goes through the rim to ensure a good airtight seal, and pushing the valve firmly into rim while tightening.

I've used this method with no problems on about 4 sets of wheels, even some DTSwiss BR2250 fat bike rims that were more tape than rim.

Afterwards I use the 'driving a bus' method of spinning the wheel to ensuring the sealant has coated all the inner surfaces and gaps.

 

[emtbPhil]

Spare bit of inner tube as a seal might help tbf!

 

[steve_sordy]

Rub a petrol soaked rag over the Gorilla tape residue and it will come right off.

 

[Pdoz]

If all else fails, after putting the tape on insert a tube at silly pressure for a night so you can press the tape against the rim. Then leave the bloody thing in because Alex is a sadistic bastard

 

[RustyIron]

Same issue, tape is rigid as hell, no stretch, refuses to go into the recess.

That's the problem. Gently use your finger to coax the stiff tape into the groove. Be patient, take your time.

You want the tape to be smooth with no voids underneath, just as if you were putting on stickers or decals.

 

[emtbPhil]

I can’t see any amount of gentle finger action would get the tape into the groove and smooth. I’ve tried that before and it just then creases up on the outside of the groove

The rims are getting pretty scratched up now so I think when these tyres wear out I might try to find some that are a bit easier to tape up

 

[Funkeydunk]

Only one thing for it, take off, nuke the site from orbit, it’s the only way to be sure. That or new wheels….boom

 

[Snrbrtsn]

What valve seal are you using ?
Theres several different types, o ring, conical, arched, flat etc

Id check the arch in the wheel and best match the profile
Start taping opposite side from valve and have a good over lap
when inserting valve, lock the collar and further 1/4 - 1/2 turn (with pliers, carefully so no rim damage)
Check the inner seal is properly against the inner profile

Fit tyre, inflate, circa 40-50 psi
check correct fitment
deflate tyre pull stem and squirt in sealant

I’ve used Muc off & Stans - though must have gotten lucky

This show what I mean quite well, more so, if wrong valve seal is used

 

[Philly G]

@emtbPhil I used gorilla tape when I first went tubeless, but I wouldn't use it now, it's too thick and does leave a very sticky residue...also found that when a tyre has been on for a while the bead can stick to the edge of the tape, a real bitch to get the tyre off then. I also hate paying over the odds for tubeless tape...the trick is to use quality electrical tape, and make 3 passes...i found this video very helpful, actually the best tubeless video I've ever seen hope it helps

 

[B1rdie]

The process of cleaning the rims with solvent is prone to leave grease spots and this might be the reason why the tapes fails to adhere 100%
So, rinsing with lots of isopropil and heat drying (or sun, if possible) before applying the tape may help.
There are some primers that you can apply to the inner surface of the rims to enhance the
process.

 

[emtbPhil]

What valve seal are you using ?
Theres several different types, o ring, conical, arched, flat etc

Id check the arch in the wheel and best match the profile
Start taping opposite side from valve and have a good over lap
when inserting valve, lock the collar and further 1/4 - 1/2 turn (with pliers, carefully so no rim damage)
Check the inner seal is properly against the inner profile

Fit tyre, inflate, circa 40-50 psi
check correct fitment
deflate tyre pull stem and squirt in sealant

I’ve used Muc off & Stans - though must have gotten lucky

This show what I mean quite well, more so, if wrong valve seal is used

That's the one I was using but I've noticed today it's a better fit for my gravel bike which has a rectangular recess.
I've swapped the one on my EMTB to the cone shaped one to see if that helps

 

[emtbPhil]

@emtbPhil I used gorilla tape when I first went tubeless, but I wouldn't use it now, it's too thick and does leave a very sticky residue...also found that when a tyre has been on for a while the bead can stick to the edge of the tape, a real bitch to get the tyre off then. I also hate paying over the odds for tubeless tape...the trick is to use quality electrical tape, and make 3 passes...i found this video very helpful, actually the best tubeless video I've ever seen hope it helps

You see that's actually interesting! Cos it's what Stans say to do - use like 18mm tape and just focus on the middle bit. But every LBS keeps telling me to do 30-33mm tape so it goes up into the bead, problem is then there's so much tape on the flat bit it won't pull down into the recess.

I think it's kinda stopped leaking air now - probably filled the spokes with gunk again, but if I have to take them off again in the future I'm going to try the Stand 21mm or 25mm tape and just do the actual recessed bit

Thanks!

 

[leix_toffee]

I have these wheels and used 30mm tape from Schwalbe, Muc Off Valves and sealant. I had no issues but I use a compressor to inflate. I used Doddys video from GMBN Tech to do it. Was also my first time going tubeless.

 

[crencos]

@emtbPhil...the trick is to use quality electrical tape

For rims that have a deep groove, one pass of eletrical tape on the spoke holes and then tubeless tape well pressed is enough. Make sure that the tubeless tape sticks well on the rim. You can pass your thumb finger all the way after putting the tape.
Been doing this for a long time on stubborn rims.
If this doesn´t work, you might have a crack somewhere.

 

[Rod B.]

I'll start this by saying I'm 42, I'm a good mechanic, spent 20 years building track & race cars. I have a garage FULL of bike tools and I'm happy doing jobs like dropping motors out to repair wiring, changing forks, everything really...

However I have my flame proof suit on and I'm more than happy to get some "you bloody idiot" comments cos this is driving me mad

Only been MTB'ing for 18 months - went to a tubeless setup on my first emtb hardtail, then again on my full sus. Today just got new tyres so ripped my old ones out and redid it. EVERY TIME I apply the tape I have the same issue..

It pisses air out the spokes!

I tried last year with muc-off tape, 30mm (inside dimension is 30mm), it refused to really go down into the recess where the spoke holes are and I guess as such pissed air out the spokes. I went through a whole roll of tape trying both wheels twice, gave up and used gorilla tape. With the gorilla tape it went into the recess easily, still leaked air out the spokes but after a day I guess the liquid gunked it up enough to stop and worked fine for a year.

Then I got the full suspension bike, bought new tyres, bought a roll of muc off tape - exactly the same issue, threw the whole lot in the bin and put gorilla tape on.
This time I've had to remove the gorilla tape to swap tyres and it took an entire day of swearing and a litre of isopropyl alcohol to get the gunk off that the gorilla tape left behind and most of the spoke holes were gunked up with sealant.
So I decided to try "doing it properly again"
This time bought Stans tape just for a change and went 33mm as the LBS (who bent me over for £22 for the tape) told me to go a few mm wider.
Same issue, tape is rigid as hell, no stretch, refuses to go into the recess.

I even tried this time putting the tape on, then putting the tyres on with an inner tube and pumping to 50psi and leaving them an hour in the hope that the inner tube would push the tape into the recess but nahhhh still pissing air out the spokes.

I threw sealant in both and slammed the garage door to the sound of hissing behind me, no doubt tomorrow I'll have to tear them all off and use gorilla tape again. But going through £100+ of tape kits to always end up in the bin is making me think I'm doing something wrong.

To be clear :-
- I remove old tape
- Clean thoroughly with glue remover and isopropyl alcohol, making sure they're dry
- Apply the tape starting a spoke over from the valve, pulling tight as I go (I have also tried thumbing the tape into the recess rather than pulling tight but just end up with wrinkles, tears and air pockets galore)
- Insert the valve
- Fit the tyre
- Pump up to pop the tyre onto the beads
- Remove air, fill with sealant
- Pump back up to desired pressure.

Any help mucho appreciated

Phil,

I'm not sure if anybody else has mention it, but you have to pull and stretch the tubeless tape really tight onto the rim. The tape will then conform to rim's inner profile. There's several ways to do this.

The easiest way is to place the empty and cleaned rim back on the bike while the bike is held in a bike stand. If no stand is available, turn the bike upside down and install the rim. Place one end of the tape about 10 inches to one side of the valve stem hole. Hold down the end of the tape with your thumb (It'll want to slip and come off). Have a second person or your self grab the brake lever and lock the wheel. Pull hard on the tape and slowly let the roll of tape out as you stretch the tape onto and around the rim. The object is to stretch the tape so that it lays down and conforms to the inner profile of the rim. Slowly let off brake lever pressure and rotate the wheel as you keep pulling, stretching and applying the tape around the wheel. Continue wrapping the tape until you've overlapped the valve stem hole about ten inches. Cut the tape and with your finger rub the tape until there are no air bubbles where the tape overlaps. If there are air bubbles, work them out from beneath the tape with your fingers. Take a nail or pick and pierce the center of the valve stem hole. Push the new valve stem into hole and tighten the nut.

As a side note, I do not like to use the cone shaped vulcanized rubber valve stems. They are useless. The rubber will eventually tear and separate from the metal valve stem and the rim will develop a slow leak. I like to use valve stems which are shaped like a nail and the rubber is separate from the metal stem. These types of valve stems are very durable, won't leak, don't plug up with sealant and last forever. Also, the stems come with aluminum valve stem caps which protect the valve better than plastic caps.

Below are two types of valve stems which I use and recommend.

 

[Oldb**tard]

I'll start this by saying I'm 42, I'm a good mechanic, spent 20 years building track & race cars. I have a garage FULL of bike tools and I'm happy doing jobs like dropping motors out to repair wiring, changing forks, everything really...

However I have my flame proof suit on and I'm more than happy to get some "you bloody idiot" comments cos this is driving me mad

Only been MTB'ing for 18 months - went to a tubeless setup on my first emtb hardtail, then again on my full sus. Today just got new tyres so ripped my old ones out and redid it. EVERY TIME I apply the tape I have the same issue..

It pisses air out the spokes!

I tried last year with muc-off tape, 30mm (inside dimension is 30mm), it refused to really go down into the recess where the spoke holes are and I guess as such pissed air out the spokes. I went through a whole roll of tape trying both wheels twice, gave up and used gorilla tape. With the gorilla tape it went into the recess easily, still leaked air out the spokes but after a day I guess the liquid gunked it up enough to stop and worked fine for a year.

Then I got the full suspension bike, bought new tyres, bought a roll of muc off tape - exactly the same issue, threw the whole lot in the bin and put gorilla tape on.
This time I've had to remove the gorilla tape to swap tyres and it took an entire day of swearing and a litre of isopropyl alcohol to get the gunk off that the gorilla tape left behind and most of the spoke holes were gunked up with sealant.
So I decided to try "doing it properly again"
This time bought Stans tape just for a change and went 33mm as the LBS (who bent me over for £22 for the tape) told me to go a few mm wider.
Same issue, tape is rigid as hell, no stretch, refuses to go into the recess.

I even tried this time putting the tape on, then putting the tyres on with an inner tube and pumping to 50psi and leaving them an hour in the hope that the inner tube would push the tape into the recess but nahhhh still pissing air out the spokes.

I threw sealant in both and slammed the garage door to the sound of hissing behind me, no doubt tomorrow I'll have to tear them all off and use gorilla tape again. But going through £100+ of tape kits to always end up in the bin is making me think I'm doing something wrong.

To be clear :-
- I remove old tape
- Clean thoroughly with glue remover and isopropyl alcohol, making sure they're dry
- Apply the tape starting a spoke over from the valve, pulling tight as I go (I have also tried thumbing the tape into the recess rather than pulling tight but just end up with wrinkles, tears and air pockets galore)
- Insert the valve
- Fit the tyre
- Pump up to pop the tyre onto the beads
- Remove air, fill with sealant
- Pump back up to desired pressure.

Any help mucho appreciated

I have Alex MD35 rims on both my bikes; one bike has 27.5 wheels, the other is a 29er. I use Gorilla Tape and have had pretty good results from it, but I had one rim on each bike that just wouldn't hold air. I fixed one by putting extra tape across the rim at the weld junction, as that was where it leaked from. The other, I just gave up and filled a tube with sealant and put it on. Both remedies have been successful, so far.

 

[emtbPhil]

Thanks guys

Those grommet look a LOT better, the muc off curved ones have a little sleeve on them that is never gonna go down the hole unless you hack a lot of tape out the way

You can see them on the left set

I do try to pull the tape really hard but the Stans tape just snaps, really easily (I really don't like stans, I did my gravel bike with their fluid and it never sealed properly, and the tape is way too rigid)

The muc-off tape did stretch a bit but just went completely flat across the recess, which when I did my first set I thought must just be how you do them and that leaked like a sieve

A friend said I should try doing them in the house because he thinks the tape is too cold in the garage, but this time I even tried stretching with a heat gun to warm it up and the stuff still snapped

 

[emtbPhil]

I have these wheels and used 30mm tape from Schwalbe, Muc Off Valves and sealant. I had no issues but I use a compressor to inflate. I used Doddys video from GMBN Tech to do it. Was also my first time going tubeless.

I've heard really good stuff about the schwalbe tape, seems to be a lot more pliable than the others. But I've never been able to find it in 30mm

 

[Jackware]

Thanks guys

Those grommet look a LOT better, the muc off curved ones have a little sleeve on them that is never gonna go down the hole unless you hack a lot of tape out the way

You can see them on the left set

I do try to pull the tape really hard but the Stans tape just snaps, really easily (I really don't like stans, I did my gravel bike with their fluid and it never sealed properly, and the tape is way too rigid)

The muc-off tape did stretch a bit but just went completely flat across the recess, which when I did my first set I thought must just be how you do them and that leaked like a sieve

A friend said I should try doing them in the house because he thinks the tape is too cold in the garage, but this time I even tried stretching with a heat gun to warm it up and the stuff still snapped

I think you're overthinking the taping, just lay it on the rim smoothly without creases or air bubbles. Not sure why you're trying to stretch the f*** out of it enough to snap it??

 

[Binhill1]

Can't be bothered with the faff had a nightmare experience once so never again. Did try when i got new wheels last June ok till morning then flat so binned that idea. I put slime in to try it out sèems to be ok. I ride solo most times and never in a hurry so the odd puncture is no big deal for me . Each to their own.

 

[Esskimojoe]

I've heard really good stuff about the schwalbe tape, seems to be a lot more pliable than the others. But I've never been able to find it in 30mm

Hi, do you overlap both sides of the valve, I normally do about 150mm each side at least. Also if buying rim tape I usually get from EBay. Search Tesa 4289 (same as Stans just loads cheaper for 66mtrs) or allegedly the Tesa 4288 (black) is meant to be better. Hope you resolve the headache.

 

[Mikerb]

Any leakage out of the spokes merely means the tape has not sealed the well of the rim...somewhere...and most likely at the valve.
For 30mm internal rim width you need 35mm tape so that it goes into the well and onto the flat section of the rim on both sides of the well.
The tape needs to be reasonably warm ( like any tape). Nothing wrong with Stans tape or Stans fluid...used both for years with zero issues.

 

[emtbPhil]

Can't be bothered with the faff had a nightmare experience once so never again. Did try when i got new wheels last June ok till morning then flat so binned that idea. I put slime in to try it out sèems to be ok. I ride solo most times and never in a hurry so the odd puncture is no big deal for me . Each to their own.

I’ve ridden 4 times with tubes. 3 ended in punctures.
Last weekend was a jump on a black section at Dalby Forest. Landed *pop* front wheel flat. Thorn straight through it.

1k miles on tubeless without a puncture. Even with all the hassle it’s worth it imo

 

[emtbPhil]

I think you're overthinking the taping, just lay it on the rim smoothly without creases or air bubbles. Not sure why you're trying to stretch the f*** out of it enough to snap it??

That doesn’t work. Leaves a huge air gap between tape and spoke holes due the recess in the rim