TSDZ2 for this (currently) rigid 29'er I built?

[markloch]

After a few upgrades to my Trek Rail (built wheels, new brakes/rotors, dropper) I was more or less a frame short of another bike, and picked up on sale Sonder Frontier frameset, NX groupset to build out a relatively light (29lb) urban/light trail bike.

Once I upgrade the fork on my Trek I'll have one I can drop down to 120mm, slightly overforked (bike calls for 110mm).

I'd like to keep is stealthy, and power it more towards a Trek Fuel EXe, e-Caliber, Spesh Levo SL, and a integrated torque sensor is a must. TSDZ2 seems like an obvious choice but I worry about overheating (I'm 220lb, a fair amount of climbing). As far as battery goes, swappable "bottle" type battery (carry extra(s) as needed).

Thoughts?

 

[ebsocalmtb]

I've built one. You will likely snap the spindle on the motor.

 

[Mabman]

I put lots of miles on TSDZ2 converted bikes, both hardtail and fs before I switched to an integrated system. I never had issues with broken spindles or over heating but did have issues with the nylon drive gear chipping out on my earliest effort and after replacing with the brass gear it was fine. The newer nylon gear seems to be made of stouter stuff.

There has been alot of effort put into this system on Endless Sphere that has led to addressing any of the issues that have cropped up over the years. My last kit was one with the newest software but frankly I couldn't tell the difference between it and my other two that I had set up?

I am 20lb.s lighter than you and as I said never experienced over heating although I never babied my bike either. But I didn't turbo up all the climbs either as it provided enough kick in the modes below that. In fact with my first conversion I never got out of mode 1 much and was able to keep up with my buddy on his Levo no problem.

The biggest drawback to the TSDZ2, as well as most of the mid conversions, is the chainring is offset to allow for the gear reduction and that puts it out far enough to really mess with good chainline. I came up with a method of taking an offset ring and adapting it to the stock spider that worked at least ok but was a bit of a bodge.....My son is still riding my latest old conversion with that setup and had an issue with it coming loose and I think now he will keep a better eye on it.

I always used them set up for 52v also which i found they performed better with but you have to make sure you have the right controller installed. I also used Hailong case batteries with 21700 cells.

In conclusion if I had to do a conversion again I would probably still use the TSDZ2 as it is cheap and effective. The torque sensor is the key element as you suggest and it has comparable power to name brand mid motor bikes it just looks home made....

 

[ebsocalmtb]

The frameset you have selected is a 27.5+ and 29x2.5 compatible frame with a 73mm bottom bracket shell and fairly wide chianstay yoke for tire clearance. This means you're almost certainly going to be using an extended spindle version of the TSDZ2 because the motor housing is going to hit the chainstay and you're going to have to space it out. The achillies heal of the tsdz2 is; 1) spindle fragility 2) heat management/capacity 3) fitment issues.

I did a similar build on a santacruz chameleon that was a 27.5+/29 mullet setup. I needed to use the extended spindle and had to space the drive side of the motor out and grind some of the motor housing to get a more serviceable chainline. Even then, I made a custom 7 speed drivetrain by removing cogs from an 11 speed cassette as the chainline in granny gear was pretty extreme. I turned the motor securing/mounting into a science project... many people just rotate it until it hits the bottom of the downtube, but there are also people that have broken the housing doing that.

I have to re-iterate... I fail to see how an extended spindle version of this motor would withstand any significant mountain biking. I am an expert mountain biker, but I have extreme mechanical empathy. I found it especially difficult to manage direct hits to the bottom bracket on a 21-23kg hard tail. I have a few friends that have done gravel bike builds with this motor and 68mm bottom bracket shells, so the standard spindle. They have broken spindles.

That being said, the riding experience with the TSDZ2 is quite good for the price and for what it is. It's good enough, and the motor is cheap enough to warrant rolling the dice... but the buzz kill is that the tsdz2 needs to be modified (brass gear, thermal capacity mods, osf firmware etc etc) so the process of taking out one $300 usd motor and swapping in another one is time consuming and quite the buzz kill. Further buzz killing the whole process... is that the extended 92mm+ spindle mod is very difficult to install yourself, and adds 150ish dollars to the price of the motor as the parts alone are $100 usd, and you're better off sourcing the motor that is already modified.

The TSDZ2 SC Chameleon I built lives on in the hands of my 74 yr old father. He rides very gently and rides sitting down primarily, which lessens the load on the spindle. That being said, I do expect to have to repair a broken spindle at some point.

On the flip side, I do have a bbs02 mounted on my commuter bike. The BBS02 and BBSHD do also have some history of broken spindles but not as prolific. While the BBS02 does not have the torque sensor... it is brick shithouse reliable and is powerful as all getout. If I were trying to build a reliable, no frills setup, I would be tempted to try a bbs02 build and use the assist as throttle only while riding off road.

bbs 02 commuter setup. This thing will to 56kph on flat ground at full chat. It's moderately scary.... but also fun.

 

[Waynemarlow]

I think Mabman and I have a very different experience than others here with the TSDZ2. It’s a very good motor considering the price and availability. Every part is available and there has been a huge development process that enables us to probably have a greater control over the motor than the latest main stream motors available. About the only failure we seemed to get was water ingress in extreme conditions which we encounter in the U.K. You can use a standard motor with great success as long as you keep it below 600W’s, those that seem to push above that do need to make a relatively simple mod to the motor which seems to keep the temps well down.

Reliability wise, if you keep the max watts down, use it sensibly, then it has to be as good as any other motor. If it fails then it’s dog cheap to replace and or repair.

73mm is fine, but if the frame is not that valuable you can narrow that down on the chain ring side but be aware to keep some clearance against the chain stay. If you actually consider the number of broken cranks then also consider that this motor has sold into the millions of units and the number known to fail are almost entirely those fitted with the 100mm fat adaptor. Do consider there is also a simple mod of adding a bearing that does somewhat eliminate this.

The forum here is very biased against the TSDZ2 engine for some reason and I can only advise that you will get far better info over on EndlessSphere.

 

[Tooks]

I’ve built 3 bikes with TSDZ2s, all of them are still going strong with friends and family.

They’re the standard 250w ones though, all fitted to 68mm shell bikes, and although I’ve got a spare motor and a metal gear here in case any of them need supporting, not required them yet.

I’ve probably jinxed them now!

 

[Waynemarlow]

View attachment 120423

Love the front suspension, pure early 90's ?

 

[Mabman]

Love the front suspension, pure early 90's ?

Yeah exactly that time period, Fournales brand from France. Converted for use with 29" wheels by taking out the stock bottom part and putting in new ones 35mm longer. Rode them for quite a few years actually and still have a set in the shed but am more into 150mm travel these days

 

[ebsocalmtb]

have any of you guys done tsdz2 builds on 27.5+ compatible bikes with the extended spindle version of the tsdz2?

 

[Mabman]

have any of you guys done tsdz2 builds on 27.5+ compatible bikes with the extended spindle version of the tsdz2?

Anybody that has been following the ES thread on the TSDZ2 knows better. The longer spindles have been an issue for years.

 

[Waynemarlow]

Pick your frame and you can ride quite modern geo. Our favourite was the Whyte T129 frame. Worked really well and best of all, all though 73mm BB, there’s no need for the problem 100mm adapter. Whyte in their wisdom changed the T129 frame rear suspension mount in the later versions which prevented the fitting of the TSDZ2 motor which was a pain as we all liked as a group the Whyte bikes.

Theres also a few of the Specialised frames of that era that worked well.

 

[Waynemarlow]

Heres a piccie of my Whyte T109, great bikes and used it for over 2K miles with the TSDZ2. We had a group of six similar bikes at one stage but all of us have gone over to FF E-Bikes.

A question here, E-Bikes have fallen so far in price that you can get a pretty decent FF full suspension for under £ 2K with low mileage ( all those Covid buys that were never really used ) that is it not simply worth flogging off all your bike bits and grabbing a bargain ?

 

[Tooks]

This is the first one I converted, I did 1500 miles on it and it’s still storming around the Pennine’s with its new keeper.

 

[Mabman]

 

[Sgarth42]

Works brillinatly on my Trek Marlin (flashed with OSF)

 

[Sgarth42]

I've built one. You will likely snap the spindle on the motor.

Additional bearings on either side reduce the force on the shear point (circlip groove) Never had a problem since, even on 100mm extended axle

 

[ebsocalmtb]

Additional bearings on either side reduce the force on the shear point (circlip groove) Never had a problem since, even on 100mm extended axle

Have done all of that added 2 bearings on circlip side and one on chainring adapter side, used green bearing retainer loctite... still had a few 100mm axles break. I've seen 1 of the standard sized 68-73mm axles break as well on a friends gravel bike build, with the added bearings. The problem is the quality of the steel and the stress riser that's created from the hard edges of the circlip groove. I also had a friend try and weld that full and grind it back smooth. Although he was able to do it without (mostly) warping the axle, it still broke... likely due to the heat treating and crap steel quality.

Provided you ride these very easy they will live, if you push them hard, ride really chunky stuff, or mess up lines, they will break. I've seen too many of these break to make the suggestion that these are a good solution for just everyone.

Honestly, if it weren't for the broken axles, it would be hard to suggest that all but 30% of emtb riders should be on a factory/oem built ebike instead of one of these.

 

[bear7364]

Works brillinatly on my Trek Marlin (flashed with OSF)

View attachment 121699

I'm just about to fit this motor to my Marlin. Did you route the display cable inside the frame ? If so did you have to cut the cable to get it through ? I like how you can't see the cables which is how I want mine to be !

 

[Sgarth42]

I'm just about to fit this motor to my Marlin. Did you route the display cable inside the frame ? If so did you have to cut the cable to get it through ? I like how you can't see the cables which is how I want mine to be !

I routed internally (had 6 pin version, no throttle & less clutter with VLCD6 display) Slightly widened the opening to allow the plug through but was pretty easy. Wife wanted mine so had to build another and to be fair, prefer it to my Trek Rail for tracks & cinder trails.
Both these bikes have done well over 1k miles however the motors were fitted to other bikes before, so each has done over 3.5k miles without issues (no broken spindles etc. Both with OSF in hybrid mode 48v 13ah batteries, additional bearings and heat mod - all simple stuff). One of the major advantages of these is being able to swap an change components as well as donor bikes.
I made a YouTube slide show for the conversion

 

[bear7364]

I routed internally (had 6 pin version an no need for throttle and less clutter with VLCD6 display) Slightly widened the opening to allow the plug through but was pretty easy. Wife wanted mine so had to build another and to be fair, prefer it to my Trek Rail for tracks & cinder trails.
Both these bikes have done well over 1k miles however the motors were fitted to ther bikes before so each has done over 3.5k miles without issues (no broken spindles etc. Both with OSF in hybrid mode 48v 13ah batteries, additional bearings and heat mod - all simple stuff). One of the major advantages of these is being able to swap an change components as well as donor bikes.
I made a YouTube slide show for the conversion
View attachment 146563 View attachment 146564

Great. Thanks for the info. I'll take a look at the YouTube slideshow