Talk to me about Mullets

[Hobo Mikey]

For years I rode 27.5, then I bought a E Cube 29er but I also went to large instead of medium frame size. It felt better at the time but I never gelled with the 29er. Sold the Cube and got my Whyte E150 RS with 27.5 wheels. I love this bike but am now looking at the Whyte E180 RSX which is a mullet. I have no experience with a mullet so what would I expect. It must work because a lot of peaple run this set up but how different is it. Your options and experience please.

 

[militantmandy]

Geo, travel and kinematics will all make way more difference than the mullet set up.

 

[Decolocsta]

Geo, travel and kinematics will all make way more difference than the mullet set up.

This

 

[Hobo Mikey]

Geo, travel and kinematics will all make way more difference than the mullet set up.

Had to look up those words on Google. But they must make mullets for a reason and not just a trend.
with my 29er I just found the wheel size just too big but with the 27.5 the bike feels part of me If that makes sense.

 

[RustyIron]

Currently rockin' a mullet, and it serves me well. I can't really say definitively that it's better because I've not ridden the exact same bike with a slightly longer chainstay and larger wheel. I doubt that there are many who have. But this bike handles nicely.

The downside for me is that on a 29/29 or 27.5/27.5, I like to run the same tires front and rear, putting a new tire on the front, and the slightly worn front onto the rear. With the mullet setup, I spend a little more on tires.

 

[Bad-Latitude]

I’ve ridden all three wheel set ups. My personal bike right now is a mullet. I really like it for the trails near me. My dad has a Scott Genius 29er and it struggles a bit on tight switchbacks, but it is super stable on faster choppy terrain. I have a Giant Reign mullet set up and I feel like it does really good with the varying terrain of SoCal. I’m sure suspension setup and geometry play a bigger role in how bikes handle though however I feel like starting with a bike that handles really good then tuning suspension from there is the way to go.

 

[Bones]

I have two mustache ebikes. One mullet and one 29er. The main thing I notice is the mullet has loads more pedal strikes than the 29er.

 

[KnollyBro]

I think whether you appreciate the subtleties of a mullet setup will depend mostly on the trails you ride and the speed that you ride them. My wife and I have a Kenevo SL and Levo SLs. Our primary reason for going to a mullet setup was to reduce tire buzz and increase agility on steep trails and drops with the rollover ability of the 29" front wheel. The Kenevo SL has a wheelbase that is almost 75mm longer than the Levo SL which supports the statement that "Geo, travel and kinematics will all make way more difference than the mullet set up" as I find the KSL very sluggish on slow speed, steep and technical trails but still very capable at speed, in the mullet setup.

 

[steve_sordy]

My first emtb was a 29er. I could have had it in 27.5, but I'd never owned a 29er so I went that way. I loved the bike, but there was one small irritation. Whenever going down something steep, with the saddle down and my arse over the rear wheel the big 29" tyre buzzed my arse! Even worse in the wet and mud as it forced crap through the fabric of my shorts/trousers.

My next emtb was a mullet and I have no further irritation. If you have very long legs, this may have never happened to you, but my inside leg is 32" and being buzzed was a frequent occurrence, but almost never with a mullet bike.

 

[Mikerb]

Someone above said there must be a reason for mullets............really?? So much of what flows down to bikes we buy is fashion led often due to ways in which the pros tune their bikes. I think most people will say that using a 27.5 on the back, loosens the back and therefore makes it easier to turn in tights berms etc. As others have pointed out however, how a bike performs in those scenarios is more a bout geo that mixing wheel sizes...............so why did it happen? For me the answer is fairly obvious. A bike designed for downhill or even pro enduro will tend to have geo optimised for those activities of course, and the vast majority of pros found 29er was faster and better a ble to cope with gnarly sections when teamed with a fairly slack head angle, longer travel suspension and longer wheelbase. The downside however was when a certain course was more twisty. For those circuits swopping out the rear wheel for a 650b solved that problem.
So for me, unless the bike in question has the full enduro geo/set up there is no reason to mullet it...........in those instances it is just pure fashion. If the bike in question is a full enduro it needs the option to be 29er front and back or mullet depending on the course to be ridden rather than just designed as a mullet.............it also needs flip chips to raise the bb and steepen the head angle.
In summary, for non racers buying trail or trail/all mountain emtbs mullet is a nonsense!!

 

[KnollyBro]

...So for me, unless the bike in question has the full enduro geo/set up there is no reason to mullet it...........in those instances it is just pure fashion. If the bike in question is a full enduro it needs the option to be 29er front and back or mullet depending on the course to be ridden rather than just designed as a mullet.............it also needs flip chips to raise the bb and steepen the head angle.
In summary, for non racers buying trail or trail/all mountain emtbs mullet is a nonsense!!

What is this full enduro geo/setup you speak of? I have a list of all the specs on my bikes and I can see some different numbers but how they specifically translate to a tangable experience, I am not exactly sure as I have never had both setups available to ride one after an other, on the same trail. Would you mind sharing some geometry numbers that would specifically target a mullet setup so I can figure out if whether I fall into the mullet "for fashion... non racer" general nonsense catagory or if my riding ability has improved to the point that I can notice such subtle nuances?

 

[PennywiseTheDancingClown]

following lol

 

[ilostmypassword]

Keeps the sun off the back of your neck.

 

[SparAu]

My new e160 has this setup, I initially thought it was just sales speak from a quick car park ride as the steering head angle is very slow.
Weirdly after now 200km+ of trails in the last 5 days I get it, it really responds faster than my 29/29 e-big9 when you counter steer and flip flop directions.

 

[Bomble]

Disagree with Mikerb here.
I had an E160RSX, the same as you Mike and mulleted it using the proper Whyte aftermarket link.
This keep the geo the same when fitting the 27.5 rear. It makes a big difference to the way the bike rides, not saying it’s faster or slower but the bike definitely feels more fun and agile.
I did the same with a Levo and preferred it mulleted, tried it on a Rail but on that I found it decreased the bb height too much and also it felt like the bike understeered a bit.
Obviously everyone has different tastes and preferences but to say it’s nonsense is just not true.

 

[Cell4soul]

My last bike was an Orbea Rise. My current bike is a Fuel EXe. The Rise has a shorter wheel base and is 29”/29”. The EXe has the longer wheel base and is mullet. All things equal, the Rise should turn sharper and easier with less input. The 27” rear wheel makes a difference on things like tight switch backs, which are easier on the EXe. That said, the Rise with 29” rear wheel was more planted and faster. Take it for what it is worth, that is my experience.

 

[SwampNut]

I came to mountain biking late in life, from a lifetime of riding motorcycles. So my brain has always tried to make my bikes more like motorcycles. This may be really stupid, dunno. I've always thought it was weird that mountain bikes, particularly electric assist, didn't have the standard motorcycle paradigm of a larger diameter but narrower front, and smaller diameter wider rear. It just makes sense. My current main bike has a 29x2.6 front and 27.5x2.8 rear, and I love this. I get good traction and also good turning, nice float in sand (common here), and it feels great on fast downhills. The one compromise I *think* I feel is that it seems to be easier to loft the front while trying to climb a hard steep section. And I guess that can be good and bad, but for me it's not good as I prefer to keep the steering. (I realize others are skilled at moving the bike with weight, I'm not.)

My bottom line is that all else being equal I'd choose the mullet option.

 

[Suns_PSD]

I've ridden the EXACT same bike (a '21 SJ Evo bike) with just a link to correct geo and a mullet rear wheel back to back to a full 29er configuration.

So same bike tested as both a mullet and full 29er. I'm 5'11" btw.

I LOVED this bike's handling as a mullet and in fact greatly preferred the bike as a mullet. In short it manualled much better and was faster and more intuitive through the turns.

However, I swapped it back to a full 29er for one reason: this is a pedal bike (not an e-bike) and I simply was not able to climb as well on the mullet rear. It wasn't as much a roll over issue, as just a traction issue. A large and sticky rear 27.5" tire would have corrected this, but on a pedal bike that was a tradeoff I could not make. I always go towards lower rolling resistance rear tires as overall it makes me a faster rider. I won't be required to make this trade off on my first e-bike.

I hope to have a Transition Relay in the Spring, configured as a Mullet, and will likely run a Schwalbe Big Betty in the rear to improve climbing traction.

 

[Mikerb]

Disagree with Mikerb here.
I had an E160RSX, the same as you Mike and mulleted it using the proper Whyte aftermarket link.
This keep the geo the same when fitting the 27.5 rear. It makes a big difference to the way the bike rides, not saying it’s faster or slower but the bike definitely feels more fun and agile.
I did the same with a Levo and preferred it mulleted, tried it on a Rail but on that I found it decreased the bb height too much and also it felt like the bike understeered a bit.
Obviously everyone has different tastes and preferences but to say it’s nonsense is just not true.

............thats fine....its a matter of degrees......and it also maybe how you choose to ride on any given bike. I can believe it makes the back end more lively but the question is whether the E160 RSX actually needs that and what may be lost a the other end of the scale in terms of stability.
I mostly ride forest trails that mean slalom through the trees and often tight turns with no built up berm and the E160 RSX negotiates all of that really well.........in direct contrast to my 2020 E180RS which is a bit of a handful in those sorts of trail but incredibly planted and stable on fast gnarly downhills. I guess I am lucky because I can pick which bike to use depending on where I am going to ride..................actually, second thoughts, it was not luck, it was by design!!

 

[Doug Stampfer]

I went from 27.5 analogue to 29 Rail & loved the rail but like Steve above didn't like the arse buzz. Rode my wifes E160 mullet & loved its' handling so much I mulleted my rail & have never looked back. My opinion is if you ride steep tight twisty trails they're good/ great fun, On any other type of trail I don't think there's a difference

 

[Mikerb]

What is this full enduro geo/setup you speak of? I have a list of all the specs on my bikes and I can see some different numbers but how they specifically translate to a tangable experience, I am not exactly sure as I have never had both setups available to ride one after an other, on the same trail. Would you mind sharing some geometry numbers that would specifically target a mullet setup so I can figure out if whether I fall into the mullet "for fashion... non racer" general nonsense catagory or if my riding ability has improved to the point that I can notice such subtle nuances?

Just do some reading of how different approaches to Geo impact the ride..........Head angle...what happens with a slack head angle e.g. 64 degrees or less, what impact chain stay length has on stability v agility.........and how it impacts on overall wheelbase and what a longer wheelbase does to handling............and also what impact longer suspension travel has on the bikes performance. All geo is an attempt to find a happy compromise for riding in a variety of conditions and the trail bike is the classic multi purpose geo design. Then some prioritise different aspects of bike performance.....downhill bikes are the best example to see the extremes ( e.g.very difficult to do any steep climbing on a downhill bike). Between trail and downhill there are several degrees of trail/enduro bikes and some will be more trail and some more enduro.
So much depends on where you ride and the typical conditions of those trails. At the end of the day there are far more important things to consider about any bike that takes your eye than what size the rear wheel is.

P.S what size tyre you run on the back also makes a difference. A 27.5 wheel is actually 23 inch rim to rim diameter...............a 29 inch is 24.5 inch rim to rim diameter. Run a 2.6 tyre on the 27.5 and a 2.3 on the 29er and the difference in overall diameter tread to tread gets less than an inch!!

 

[SwampNut]

P.S what size tyre you run on the back also makes a difference. A 27.5 wheel is actually 23 inch rim to rim diameter...............a 29 inch is 24.5 inch rim to rim diameter. Run a 2.6 tyre on the 27.5 and a 2.3 on the 29er and the difference in overall diameter tread to tread gets less than an inch!!

This is an important point, and it goes in multiple directions. The ability to have a wider rear without having a huge difference in overall front/rear diameter is one way to look at it.

I just hope that one day I am skilled enough to truly know how it all works.

 

[Hobo Mikey]

Thanks for all your input on this thread guys. Lots of different opinions for me to think about. I think the main thing I am worried about is if I sell my 150rs and buy the 180rsx and don’t like it I am bolloxed. I won’t find another 150rs because there getting old now. And no I can’t keep both due to money and living like I do. Still some thinking to do.

 

[Mikerb]

Thanks for all your input on this thread guys. Lots of different opinions for me to think about. I think the main thing I am worried about is if I sell my 150rs and buy the 180rsx and don’t like it I am bolloxed. I won’t find another 150rs because there getting old now. And no I can’t keep both due to money and living like I do. Still some thinking to do.

Simple solution........forget the E180 and go for the E160 RSX instead. The spec is top notch and the bike is very nearly as capable as the E180 on extreme downhill whilst being far more capable than the E180 for everything else......and without ever having ridden the E150 I would bet it is far more capable than that too!
(disclaimer...........my knowledge of the E180 is based on my 2020 E180 RS rather than the newer model but I suspect it retains much of the same DNA).

 

[Bomble]

Thanks for all your input on this thread guys. Lots of different opinions for me to think about. I think the main thing I am worried about is if I sell my 150rs and buy the 180rsx and don’t like it I am bolloxed. I won’t find another 150rs because there getting old now. And no I can’t keep both due to money and living like I do. Still some thinking to do.

If you went for the 160RSX you could have the best of both worlds re Mullet, it works very well as 29er or mullet, and Whyte supplying the various 160’s in both configurations.
I know the 180Rsx is mullet but not sure if they do a 29 version.
Don’t think you’d dislike any other them though to be honest.

 

[KnollyBro]

Just do some reading of how different approaches to Geo impact the ride..........Head angle...what happens with a slack head angle e.g. 64 degrees or less, what impact chain stay length has on stability v agility.........and how it impacts on overall wheelbase and what a longer wheelbase does to handling............and also what impact longer suspension travel has on the bikes performance. All geo is an attempt to find a happy compromise for riding in a variety of conditions and the trail bike is the classic multi purpose geo design. Then some prioritise different aspects of bike performance.....downhill bikes are the best example to see the extremes ( e.g.very difficult to do any steep climbing on a downhill bike). Between trail and downhill there are several degrees of trail/enduro bikes and some will be more trail and some more enduro.
So much depends on where you ride and the typical conditions of those trails. At the end of the day there are far more important things to consider about any bike that takes your eye than what size the rear wheel is.

P.S what size tyre you run on the back also makes a difference. A 27.5 wheel is actually 23 inch rim to rim diameter...............a 29 inch is 24.5 inch rim to rim diameter. Run a 2.6 tyre on the 27.5 and a 2.3 on the 29er and the difference in overall diameter tread to tread gets less than an inch!!

So, when I asked you for a "full enduro geo/setup", you are not able to provide anything other than "Just do some reading". I think you can do better than generalize a bunch of "they says" like they are facts. IF there are geo specs where a mullet setup would help, I would like to see it. I have 3 bikes that I would like to compare the numbers to this list to see if they benefit from the mullet.
I have to question your statement of calling a mullet setup a fashion statement based on what the Pros are riding as that would make us all such sheep who will buy anything the Big BIke Manufactures will put out there because it was AS SEEN ON TV! Is it possible that some innovation trickles down from WC DH or Enduro but we are all much too old, fat and slow to notice, without being told. Fortunately, we DO have the money, so THEY must offer us new concepts and products, so WE can do our part to keep the economy going
Now, who is buying a new bike this year because of the latest geometry, to ride better, to have more fun or to be a poser?

 

[Mikerb]

So, when I asked you for a "full enduro geo/setup", you are not able to provide anything other than "Just do some reading". I think you can do better than generalize a bunch of "they says" like they are facts. IF there are geo specs where a mullet setup would help, I would like to see it. I have 3 bikes that I would like to compare the numbers to this list to see if they benefit from the mullet.
I have to question your statement of calling a mullet setup a fashion statement based on what the Pros are riding as that would make us all such sheep who will buy anything the Big BIke Manufactures will put out there because it was AS SEEN ON TV! Is it possible that some innovation trickles down from WC DH or Enduro but we are all much too old, fat and slow to notice, without being told. Fortunately, we DO have the money, so THEY must offer us new concepts and products, so WE can do our part to keep the economy going
Now, who is buying a new bike this year because of the latest geometry, to ride better, to have more fun or to be a poser?

I dont do free lectures

 

[RustyMojo]

For what it’s worth, the trickle down of technology and innovation is nothing new and not unique to the MtB world. So yes at the very elite level if an advantage has been found it’s inevitable it will trickle down to ‘production’. It doesn’t mean it’s a fashion thing necessarily, it is just the natural evolution of things. Studying numbers in isolation means nothing. It’s the balance of all of the numbers that will have an overall effect on the feel and balance of a bike. In fact the numbers ‘game’ is just as much a fashionable part of MTB as wheel size etc.

As for mullet, well I’m sold on the idea and practice. But I have to say I have recently gone back to 29/29 on my rail. Mainly because I need a new wheelset! The benefits are not to do with speed necessarily. More to do with bike handling in general. Less tyre buzz, faster and easier handling. It works for me. The challenge is the drop in BB which, even with the chip flipped is still low on a Rail. I plan to run 170 in my zebs at some point (when I service them) and then give it another go. Of course with better technique it’s a moot point. I have adapted my riding to over come the challenges of a lower Bb, but I still get caught out. Even being a long term MTB rider, I still get hung up on old bad habits which can cause problems. If I was buying my bike again mullet setup would be on my shopping list as a priority for sure. Especially for what and where I ride, which is normally South wales/ Forest of Dean steep tech which is very tight, sloppy and natural. I like to be able to move around on a bike and struggled with a 29er for years. I’m 5’9 with a short inside leg and can’t see that changing now I’m 41. That said lots of people suffer with tyre buzz because they hang too far off the back of the bike. It’s simply not needed with modern geo being more centralised, will help maintain control much more than ass back, arms straight etc.

 

[Mikerb]

For what it’s worth, the trickle down of technology and innovation is nothing new and not unique to the MtB world. So yes at the very elite level if an advantage has been found it’s inevitable it will trickle down to ‘production’. It doesn’t mean it’s a fashion thing necessarily, it is just the natural evolution of things. Studying numbers in isolation means nothing. It’s the balance of all of the numbers that will have an overall effect on the feel and balance of a bike. In fact the numbers ‘game’ is just as much a fashionable part of MTB as wheel size etc.

As for mullet, well I’m sold on the idea and practice. But I have to say I have recently gone back to 29/29 on my rail. Mainly because I need a new wheelset! The benefits are not to do with speed necessarily. More to do with bike handling in general. Less tyre buzz, faster and easier handling. It works for me. The challenge is the drop in BB which, even with the chip flipped is still low on a Rail. I plan to run 170 in my zebs at some point (when I service them) and then give it another go. Of course with better technique it’s a moot point. I have adapted my riding to over come the challenges of a lower Bb, but I still get caught out. Even being a long term MTB rider, I still get hung up on old bad habits which can cause problems. If I was buying my bike again mullet setup would be on my shopping list as a priority for sure. Especially for what and where I ride, which is normally South wales/ Forest of Dean steep tech which is very tight, sloppy and natural. I like to be able to move around on a bike and struggled with a 29er for years. I’m 5’9 with a short inside leg and can’t see that changing now I’m 41. That said lots of people suffer with tyre buzz because they hang too far off the back of the bike. It’s simply not needed with modern geo being more centralised, will help maintain control much more than ass back, arms straight etc.

yep, agree with a lot of that. 27.5 bikes (front and back) certainly suit shorter riders and a 27.5 rear on a 29er may do the same but ( as you say) often at the expense of a low BB. Whether you call it "fashion" or technological trickle down largely depends ( for me) on whether that aspect of "trickle down" is actually functional for most recreational riders. As some have pointed out in the responses a bove, that largely depends on how well any particular 29er they have handles, most especially if their riding territory is tight and twisty.
You certainly need to know what you are doing if you mullet a 29er because you create more changes than merely reducing the size of the rear wheel. The rear of the bike is lowered and rider weight distribution moved slightly back meaning less weight over the front wheel. Some of that may be mitigated with geo changes ( if available) and have different impacts on different bikes and/or rider styles.
My most recent purchase is a Whyte E160 RSX ( 29er) and I often ride tight twisty forest trails........BUT........the bike turns in fast and very little fore/aft rider weight distribution change is required negotiating either downhill or steep uphill sections. Somehow Whyte seem to have produced a 29er with all the easy rollover, stability and speed of a 29er but without the lack of agility, so I feel no need to experiment with a mullet set up. I certainly notice the difference compared to my more Enduro focused E180 despite it being a full 27.5 bike.
You seem to know what you are doing and have experienced the positives and negatives so you have every chance of making a success of going mullet.

 

[rzr]

depends how you ride and what are you looking for.
Suspension travel, geo etc. could be more important than just one wheel size.
That Whyte E180 RSX - looks like it weights 26kg !
Doesn't matter wheel sizes, the weight will be the biggest factor here
(comparing to other ebikes ~23kg)