Subjective I know but.... Whats the most reliable Ebike motor

[CjP]

Apologies Mr Dundee. Presumably you represent part of the "Giant" deniers group and get upset if anyone dares say that the Giant isn't unbreakable. Very happy you haven't had any problems with yours, about 90-95% of all owners of any brand have no problems. Maybe read the Giant threads once in a while to understand that they're not immune to issues.

And yes, I did ride it 200 meters at at least 60cm's under water. The river had broken it's banks over the muddy track which runs down the side and with only a vertical rock face there was no other way than turning back. I thought from memory I'd be at mainly about 30cm's. Stupidly, I'd not taken into account the tractor ruts which I dropped straight into and was then tram lined the rest of the way. Decided not to stop as it was well below freezing and was already getting cold from being wet and figured I wouldn't get going again as it was hard enough just to keep moving, or I'd have to pick the bike up to carry it - slip in a rut, fall over and completely submerge the bike which would be worse.

Rode the rest of the ride in Turbo as hard as possible to keep the motor/battery as warm as possible and try to dry anything out which was wet, then rinsed the bike off and it spent the next 24 hours in front of the wood burner.

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The end of the same bit of track a couple of months later when it was just wet and not "flooded" :

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It always get ridden wet or dry and despite being a Brose, amazingly - still works.

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In fairness the blue Kenevo’s are beasts!

 

[Manc44]

I'm leaning towards Bosch, mainly because I've read less Bosch motor issue threads than anyone else, but there its usually between 3 that the threads run - Yamaha,Shimano and Bosch.

Yeah but they all sold in different amounts. You'd need to work out complaints per 1,000 sold or whatever.

 

[Coolcmsc]

Yeah but they all sold in different amounts. You'd need to work out complaints per 1,000 sold or whatever.

Which, as was well said by @paul20v , will never be known ‘cos there’s no motive for the manufacturers to tell us that. Oh, and of course they also know the failure rate for each bike and would never tell us that either.
Theres lot to worry about where resolution is possible - this isn’t one of those.

 

[2WheelsNot4]

Yeah but they all sold in different amounts. You'd need to work out complaints per 1,000 sold or whatever.

Oh god, dont drag me back into it I've lost the lid.

 

[Mikerb]

If you have to ride through fairly deep water...........go as fast and as straight as possible. The front tyre displacement creates a parting of the (red) sea.

 

[Neeko DeVinchi]

Yeah!!!... I'm saying Bafang.
And whilst I appreciate I'll get stick for it, the fact remains, ALL of my bafang motors (regardless of model) still functions.

I'll gladly say to which I stipulated this on my last video 'there is no such thing as a motor which can seamlessly operate without issue'. But the fact remains that Bafang have yet to have discontinued manufacturing any model of motor they've made. And some motors 'by design' use the same components and can be obtained aftermarket.

Like I said, I'll probably get stick for this message but that's been my experience so...........yeah!!

 

[lightning]

Shimano E8000 on 2020 Kona bought NOS in March 2021

Mileage currently 2,400 (miles not km)

No issues at all with the motor, ridden in all weathers, one of the first rides, a 30 miler, was the worst where it snowed and l rode over 20 freezing miles in melting snow and standing water.

Since then it's been ridden in Summer but over the last few weeks every ride has been wet, with water spraying off the front wheel on to the plastic motor casing.

l've given up only going out in the dry, because it's never dry. After getting home the bike gets washed with a hose, but only on low pressure.

l am resigned to eventually replacing the motor, but so far it's performed perfectly.

lt did sometimes make a sort of screaming noise after a longer ride, but it stopped doing that some months ago.

l don't use full power in Turbo mode, l've got it set to "medium" which is 200% rather than the maximum 300% it can deliver.

ln fact l spend 90% of my rides in "Trail" (set to medium) and 10% in Eco" (set to high)
Turbo never used.

Maybe not using the motor to its maximum capacity helps it to last longer. Who knows.

l expect it will eventually succumb to water ingress or bearing failure after constant riding in the Derbyshire Winter.

 

[Rostle32]

My 2020 Rail 7 managed 3000 UK miles before error 500 cropped up (JULY 2021), new motor fitted and turned round within 48 hrs,
bike is now back in the shop awaiting a motor/purion controller/battery power lead, with errors 530/503 bike has done about 1200 miles on the replacement motor , no noises , still smooth and responsive, seems like the failures are sensors rather than actual bearing/mechanical failings.

 

[lightning]

What motor is that?

 

[Rostle32]

What motor is that?

Soz! bosch gen4

 

[1oldfart]

Yamaha might the #1, i read one was at 44,000kms and since 2016 we never read about a third motor wich is frequent with some brands. That is what i buy and zero issue.

 

[lightning]

My friend has a Bosch Gen 4 in his 2021 Cube. Well, l think it's a Gen 4

He's had a couple of error codes but they cleared after switching the system off then back on.

Three months ago the motor died and it's been at the bike shop ever since. Apparently waiting for a new motor.

Mileage is around 1200.

lt wouldn't put me off Bosch. My other friend has a 2022 Cube with the latest Bosch motor and it's superb, it's so smooth and powerful that makes my E8000 equipped Kona feel like an old Klunker.

lt's definitely got more power, it rips up hills and he leaves me for dead

The only minus point is that it's very difficult to de restrict, for those who want to do that kind of thing.

He's not interested so it's fine with him.

 

[Terrafirma]

Before I bought my 1st E Bike I researched the motor brands and the Bosch was the one that stood out. I've done 3000Kms so far with my Gen 4 85nm and all good. For whatever reason I don't expect it to last forever and I'm open to servicing the engine if it needs it? What price do you put on enjoyment and happiness when it comes to your E-Bike? They are worth spending money on IMO.

 

[Mr mick]

60 cms is around 24 inches, so not much of your wheels would have been above the waterline. And you pedalled 200 metres thru a swollen icy cold flooded river at that depth with a hot motor cooling rapidly and sucking water through the seals ?? mate, you are superman and I will dump my Giant which has had its fair share of non motor related issues, get me one of those levo submarine things you are piloting, and smoke what you are smoking.
Shit, I get nervous driving a large 4x4 through these conditions….
It is a very nice looking bike though..

 

[MrSimmo]

Apologies Mr Dundee.

This bit had me laughing out-loud

 

[MrSimmo]

I know many people have had problems with their Brose on Specialized’s, but touch morning wood, mine has been fine for nearly 4000 miles. That includes, like Zimmer, a stint of riding through a flood where the motor went underwater for 30 or so metres (length not depth before anyone remarks that I dont have a scuba-bike!). That was during the UK flooding a couple of months ago and its still not missed a beat.

Bet I’ve jinxed it now though. Chris @ Berkshire, please could I reserve one motor?!

 

[Mr mick]

To all the levo submarine pilots, there is no way my Giant / Yamaha would survive that, washing the ride control unit on the handlebars resulted in a 3 week wait and a warranty claim not long after purchase

 

[Zimmerframe]

I'm not suggesting anyone "Should" head out and ride underwater. Submersion on e-bikes should be avoided at all cost, sometimes it happens though. Ultimately, any water getting in will lead to a shortening life span of the motor either from corrosion or bearing failure. I've just been lucky, as others have been unlucky and their motors have failed just from a few drops of sweat landing on the cranks Jetwashing/Powerwashing any moving parts/electronics is another good way to fast track a trip to your dealer. A lot of Spesh failures are water ingress into the TCU (mounted in the top tube), it's not particularly well sealed and often the rubber USB port cover on the inside is left open.

washing the ride control unit on the handlebars

There's quite a lot of good information and elegant solutions for fault finding and problem avoiding with giants in this thread :

GIANT Trance "Bench Test" Rig

Hi folks, Not been posting of late as been crazy busy at work and havent been able to concentrate on much else thanks to COVID giving me a pay free year off work. Anyway... I decided to do a quick video of my home test rig as I know many GIANT Trance E-Bike owners are plagued with reliability...

www.emtbforums.com

And an example diary of less than perfect Giant ownership, fortunately it's not like this for everyone :

Collected brand new: Feb 7th 2020.
This bike was a trade up for my rejected MY19 E+3Pro Which had a hub, a motor, a fork, 3 controllers and was generally nothing but trouble.

5th March = Ride One Controller failure (FLED28-10)
Had to wait a week for a new one to come

New one fitted and lost auto mode and ANT+ as they installed controller for a 2019 bike. (FLED28-07)
Had to wait again for a 2nd one to arrive.

25th March. = Speed sensor failure.
(Cracked plug due to placement in casing)
2 weeks wait. New one fitted 10th April.

15th June = Battery failure.
3 weeks wait until 6th July for a new one so bought a spare at same time.
That came faster than the warranty unit.

20th July = Motor bearings failure. (1st motor failure)
4 weeks wait until 21st August for her 2nd motor to be fitted.

20th July = Dropper post changed under warranty whilst it was in.

6th September = Ride One Controller failure
1 week wait until new one arrived 14th September (FLED28-10)

22nd November = Motor failure (2nd Motor failure)
26th November, her 3rd motor was installed.

14th December = Ride One Controller failure
1 week wait until 20th December. (FLED28-15 this time.)

18th January 21 = Dropper post failure again. (twists)
Shop said it needs to be sent to Giant for inspection which I wasn’t willing to do as I would have no bike.
I found a service kit for sale in USA so bought it and fixed it myself. Why cant these be available in UK?

19th May 21 = Motor bearings failure again. (3rd Motor failure)
Claim initialised by the shop and told week 29. Week 29 arrived and then told week 33. (16th Aug week)

18th Aug 2021 = her 4th Motor installed.
This time it was installed with brand new RCone (FLED28-15) new upgraded loom, new UPGRADED battery discharge connector and identical but new charging port plus the battery shim mod for good measure. Then it was all waterproofed with liquid insulator for good measure as always.

25th September 21.
Cut out on Garburn Pass.
No idea why, seemed warm and dry, wouldnt stay on. Took it back to car and it was fine when we got home.

13th Nov 21
Cut out at Gisburn Forest.
was wet, but same symptoms as the Garburn failure. Controller wont stay on.
Took it back to car and it was fine when we got home.

5th Dec 21.
Cut out at Gisburn with Steve.
Steves has identical bike so as a last resort after the usual wiggling, bouncing and swearing we tried his battery and it powered up my bike fine. As did my battery power his. Finished our ride no problem. back at the car neither of my own batteries would power it. But Steve’s still would on multiple occasions after lots of messing with connectors and cleaning of contacts.

Back at home, all batteries worked fine again. Baffled.
Current mileage is a little under 3000 miles.

From :

GIANT Traumas. Are they BATTERY firmware related?

Here is something to ponder over. Could our power down issues be battery firmware related? A few hundred miles ago I fitted to my MY20 Trance E+2Pro. New motor. New loom. (Latest 21 version) New discharge connector. (Latest 21 version) Shim mod.(1x) New charging port. New ride control one...

www.emtbforums.com

 

[MrSimmo]

To all the levo submarine pilots, there is no way my Giant / Yamaha would survive that, washing the ride control unit on the handlebars resulted in a 3 week wait and a warranty claim not long after purchase ☹

Yeh agreed, that sucks

Dont know a lot about those units but doesn’t sound good at all.

A friend of mine was a submariner back in the day, he said they spent most of their time reading porn mags and playing jokes on each other

 

[Zimmerframe]

he said they spent most of their time reading porn mags and playing jokes on each other

Like sticking the good pages together so no one else could see them ? or is that just "collateral damage" ?

 

[Crni33]

@Zimmerframe and @Bearing Man have contributed so much here. Seeing the carful approach to how to interpret the figures is as important as the data. And then there’s another thing, oft mentioned, but not recently here.
We have some insights into what happens and to which motors.
But we have absolutely no idea how many of each have been sold. So, we have no idea what any of this means. None at all. The old ‘Denominator’ problem then.
What irrationally irritates me - I was sever;y punished by a Levo - is that the manufacturer of each type do know this data and don’t share.
They can’t afford to share - I understand that.
But by all that’s holy, it irritates me nonetheless

That's why forums like this exist.
Before you could buy a most reliable car (if that's what you are looking for) by looking at German ADAC car brake down statistics, but now with mobile warranty, each car producer picks up its own brand and repairs it without reveling the statistics. I've just read today that number of cars being recalled in 2021 compared to 2011 is 6 times more. So with e-bikes I guess we are on the same track. And I only find this now, after buying one .
I guess batteries in your legs are the best choice, unless you can afford a "small investment" in your ebike every year.

 

[Coolcmsc]

I guess batteries in your legs are the best choice, unless you can afford a "small investment" in your ebike every year.

Awww! Nope, no need to be so negative in my view.
I've had a terrible experience with one e-bike and I'm not far off a new one every year as a result, but I still feel much more positive than that!
I don't have many batteries in my legs these days and those that remain are much better for the eeb!

 

[anfos]

Is it so hard to build a bottom bracket that is waterproof? I guess because of how bicycles operate and the need of bearings in that area? Sounds like that area is the culprit and the rest of the motor is quite well sealed?

 

[Neeko DeVinchi]

The real culprit behind motor failures is heat dissipation through peak output.
This is due to the common battery chemistry used I.e. nickel cobalt & magnesium + running more amps in an effort to sustain the motors power.

Internal components within the motor are sometimes susceptible to damage if the heat isn't allowed to dissipate.

Manufacturers of motors try to resolve this issue in different ways. Indeed, their is no right or wrong solution.

Similarly enough, not all motors are built the same. Therefore, each motor will have their own inherent strengths and weaknesses in certain circumstances.

Besides let's be honest with ourselves people. Until bike manufacturers offer lifetime warranty on batteries and motors, not one motor is better than the other in terms of longevity.

 

[2WheelsNot4]

Yeah!!!... I'm saying Bafang.
And whilst I appreciate I'll get stick for it, the fact remains, ALL of my bafang motors (regardless of model) still functions.

Well they've obviously come far since the early days.
I remember and this is long before ebikes were considered for use as mountain bikes and more the commuter/shopper affairs, all you saw was thousands of stripped down bits on ebay from bikes and motors which had broken down. It's been a concept for me whenever i heard the term Ebike I'd be reminded of pages after pages of gubbed parts that seemingly nobody wanted.

It's probably why im biased against hub motors as that was what they all were.

But I will agree that tech has come on leaps and bounds, and although I see from other non emtb forums, they still arent without their problems, overall theres been a huge improvement.

 

[Mteam]

The real culprit behind motor failures is heat dissipation through peak output.

Hmmmm, not sure I agree about heat being the real culprit, it looks like water ingress causes by far the majority of failures.

 

[Neeko DeVinchi]

Hmmmm, not sure I agree about heat being the real culprit, it looks like water ingress causes by far the majority of failures.

I can understand why you'd say that.
The water ingress issue is a byproduct of the seals which prevent ingress failing. Each manufacturer who builds motors must demonstrate that the motor 'can' withstand moisture. However as soon as you take the motor outside a controlled environment, revisions are made to ensure that the motor can operate in a variety of conditions.

Again, each manufacturer deals with this in different ways. Some offer software updates which reduces the maximum current the motor can achieve. Other manufacturers install new components within their existing line up of motors. I do recall one motor manufacturer implementing a gore tex membrane fabric around key parts of the motor to prevent ingress but I did question how this would tackle the heat build up.... and then they released a firmware update which reduced the power of the motor and subsequently, heat build up

Water ingress within a motor only becomes a problem if the moisture is not able to escape from the unit. To that end, one could argue that the positioning of the motor (horizontal to the chainstay or tilted up to the downtube), would be more valid points to determine motors failing due water ingress. But then, that's no longer the fault of the motor. And instead, the bike manufacturer who designed the method the motor mounts onto the frame.

 

[pmcdonald]

So how is the EP8 shaping up in this mix? Or too early days yet to get a sense of its reliability?

 

[Neeko DeVinchi]

So how is the EP8 shaping up in this mix? Or too early days yet to get a sense of its reliability?

Put it this way. The EP8's are relatively new so any person whose encountering problems, probably has warranty.

 

[Planemo]

.... and then they released a firmware update which reduced the power of the motor and subsequently, heat build up

Meanwhile Bosch (and others) release an 85Nm upgrade rather than a downgrade

Neither the battery nor the motor casing seems excessively hot on my Gen4 even after a thrash on turbo. Admittedly, I'm not probing temps internally though