SRAM's new 2023 Drivetrain allows full power shifts

[TomGun77]

Can’t see anything obvious. The only thing might be that I’m not sure if Specialized have any stipulations regarding 36t chainring.

I’ll see if I can find an answer…

According to Specialized, the information on the website is wrong and it's compatible.

 

[Hardtail]

Just a thought...

One could purchase the X0 Eagle Transmission minus the new 'derailleur' and run the current AXS mech or even a good old cable puller, setup cost would be just over £1k for AXS and £730 for cables.

You miss out on the full shifting-under-load experience but you get the benefit of "the most durable drivetrain" and can run it on bikes that don't utilise the UDH...

Unless the pull ratio of the rear mechs is different and I have just wasted some time and brain cells...

 

[Mteam]

Just a thought...

One could purchase the X0 Eagle Transmission minus the new 'derailleur' and run the current AXS mech or even a good old cable puller, setup cost would be just over £1k for AXS and £730 for cables.

You miss out on the full shifting-under-load experience but you get the benefit of "the most durable drivetrain" and can run it on bikes that don't utilise the UDH...

Unless the pull ratio of the rear mechs is different and I have just wasted some time and brain cells...

apparently the cassette on the new transmission system is in a slightly different position relative to the derailleur when compared to the old eagle setup, so you need to space the traditional axs derailleur out by ~2mm - or so I read, no idea if correct or not.

 

[2WHLFUN]

And then if the chain gets worn, that about 150-180 euros for 1 chain thats absurd.

Can renew my whole drive train with an slx/xt casette chain, chainring combo for that price

But if you lube and keep the chain clean it last 4X longer

 

[SwampNut]

I love seeing people judge a new technology by the paradigms that apply to older tech. I see it constantly, as my career has always been in high tech and specifically in advancing the latest stuff into enterprises. I own a Tesla, and I get everything from curious questions based on old assumptions, to outright hate and stupidity based on really idiotic old fears and assumptions.

SRAM has reinvented the drivetrain. Without judging whether they've done it right, or not, we have to abandon our assumptions about how it will be maintained in the future. Kind of like my Tesla; it "never" needs brakes. That's one of the things I have to allocate into the cost justification because that's a massive savings in the long run.

 

[irie]

I love seeing people judge a new technology by the paradigms that apply to older tech. I see it constantly, as my career has always been in high tech and specifically in advancing the latest stuff into enterprises. I own a Tesla, and I get everything from curious questions based on old assumptions, to outright hate and stupidity based on really idiotic old fears and assumptions.

SRAM has reinvented the drivetrain. Without judging whether they've done it right, or not, we have to abandon our assumptions about how it will be maintained in the future. Kind of like my Tesla; it "never" needs brakes. That's one of the things I have to allocate into the cost justification because that's a massive savings in the long run.

What Sram has done is to re-imagine the old drive train.

You say you're a new tech man who understands old tech so you'll understand that it's no more a reinvention than the 80386 was when compared with a 80286.

 

[SwampNut]

What Sram has done is to re-imagine the old drive train.

You say you're a new tech man who understands old tech so you'll understand that it's no more a reinvention than the 80386 with integrated co-pro was when compared with a 80286 with separate 80287 coprocessor.

There's always one in the crowd. Do you think that this "re-imagined" drivetrain does NOT have significant gains and vastly change how we think of chain longevity?

 

[2WHLFUN]

The chain (if cared for) lasts much longer. Something like 4X

 

[yorkshire89]

There's always one in the crowd. Do you think that this "re-imagined" drivetrain does NOT have significant gains and vastly change how we think of chain longevity?

He's not wrong, SRAM haven't reinvented anything, they've added some nice features to something that's been around for an age.
I can't blame anyone for mentioning the cost of replacing a wear and tear item, they should factor that in if they decide to upgrade. I'm sure GX will be along soon at a more reasonable price.

Similarly for electric cars, you might not need to replace the brakes but your batteries will reduce in range over the years and they will need to be replaced at some point. Maybe 10-20x the cost of replacing a few sets of brakes.

 

[Hiltix]

I just think it also depends on where and how you ride. I, for example, am much in the Alps, in rough terrain. And it has often happened that I have grazed with the derailleur somewhere. Often nothing was broken, just the derailleur hanger little bent and then the shifting is just pain in the ass.

I had so much trouble with it in the last 2 years that I am very glad to get rid of this troublesome part. I ordered the XX changer for my new Voima. But yes, the price is crazy!

My first Post
Cheers

 

[SwampNut]

Similarly for electric cars, you might not need to replace the brakes but your batteries will reduce in range over the years and they will need to be replaced at some point. Maybe 10-20x the cost of replacing a few sets of brakes.

As I said, people love to make incorrect assumptions about everything they don't really understand.

 

[irie]

As I said, people love to make incorrect assumptions about everything they don't really understand.

What was the point I was making when comparing a 80286 with a 80386?

 

[SwampNut]

What was the point I was making when comparing a 80286 with a 80386?

Seemingly nothing, just deflecting and obfuscating. Apparently this conversation is going nowhere, as they often do when people won't see change in front of them.

 

[irie]

Seemingly nothing, just deflecting and obfuscating. Apparently this conversation is going nowhere, as they often do when people won't see change in front of them.

You are evidently ignorant of the differences between the two devices and rather than admit your ignorance dismiss the point as deflection and obfuscation.

 

[SwampNut]

You are evidently ignorant of the differences between the two devices and rather than admit your ignorance dismiss the point as deflection and obfuscation.

I'm aware, I lived it, as the service and sales manager of a computer store. It's irrelevant here, but ok, you carry on with it. The semantics of which specific words you choose doesn't change the fact that this product changes everything we assume about past similar products. The in-built copro didn't, or at least, not in that one step.

 

[irie]

I'm aware, I lived it, as the service and sales manager of a computer store. It's irrelevant here, but ok, you carry on with it. The semantics of which specific words you choose doesn't change the fact that this product changes everything we assume about past similar products. The in-built copro didn't, or at least, not in that one step.

The 80386 did not have an inbuilt copro.

The point is that these devices, although at the time widely touted as revolutionary, were in fact evolutionary as is Sram's latest iteration of the derailleur.

 

[SwampNut]

Right, which is why your repeated comparisons seem to make zero sense. But I'm done on stupid unrelated analogies.

All the documentation I can find says that SRAM have tested and documented real-life wear time on the chains and sprockets to be around four times better. If you think they are lying, then all bets are off. Outside of that, it seems like their "expensive" parts are actually cheaper in the long run. Many things often are, but people are bad at math.

Now, the fact that it's super expensive to buy may not make dollar sense anyway, outside of the improved shifting. And I don't have a horse in the race, it won't fit my bike, and I'm not changing my bike for years to come. By then, "everyone" will have something just as good.

 

[Hardtail]

my Tesla; it "never" needs brakes. That's one of the things I have to allocate into the cost justification because that's a massive savings in the long run.

I get it @SwampNut, but is it massive? Teslas are amazing for a number of reasons but don't drink the Kool-Aid.

An ICE vehicle is probably in the area of £1000 per 100,000 miles for a brake service, which would be two pad replacements and one disc change, so maybe you do that every 200,000 miles in a Tesla, so your savings are £500 every 100,000 miles.

Of course, these are just numbers and have no bearing in the real world as people have different weights in their left and right feet which determines how fast they drive and quickly they stop...

 

[steve_sordy]

.....................................

My first Post
Cheers

Welcome to the Forum!

 

[SwampNut]

but is it massive?

Yes; the brakes are just one simple and obvious example of the many ways old-think doesn't apply to EVs. I did a spreadsheet on projected costs, had both my accountant and financial advisor review it, and we all agree that the cost savings make the car free. Old-think is "it's $50/mo more on my payment!!" Sure, and it's several hundred less in gas and maintenance.

It appears that the same comparisons apply here.

so maybe you do that every 200,000 miles in a Tesla

But that's another incorrect assumption. Most people don't service the brakes in 300k to 500k miles. I think the service manual says to inspect them at 300k. I basically never touch the brake pedal, if you drive aggressively then that would change, but you'd have to be super aggressive. Odds are that I won't need brake pads in my remaining lifetime.

 

[Dax]

Seemingly nothing, just deflecting and obfuscating. Apparently this conversation is going nowhere, as they often do when people won't see change in front of them.

Ultimately this isn’t reinvention, this is incremental improvement. No argument it like a big improvement and I’m considering one for my ksl, although I’m still interested to see what happens when you hook the £600 mech on a rock at 20mph…

 

[SwampNut]

although I’m still interested to see what happens when you hook the £600 mech on a rock at 20mph…

I saw some Youtube testing on this, but unfortunately, I didn't save any of the links. In one test they hit it from the side very hard and it was fine. In another they hit it from the front, and it rotated back and up. I think they had to do something to reset it, but kept riding. I didn't pay super close attention to all the details, since I can't put it on my bike. It was purely mental masturbation and lust.

I suppose that's most of Youtube.

 

[steve_sordy]

Without investigating, I am prepared to accept that because of its design, the chances of an impact with passing rocks and sundry shrubbery are reduced. The range of stresses when such an impact does occur will stay the same however.

The physical stress that used to result in a ripped off or damaged mech, the stress required to bend the mech hanger, break the chain, or damage the spokes and so forth..... Where does it all go instead when there is an impact?

It must be into the rear axle and/or the universal hanger.
Therefore, the rear bearings collectively will pick up the impact, maybe other parts of the bike.

SRAM tell us that the UH "will not bend" (exaggeration?), so that means any forces that are not taken up by the hub bearings will go into the frame and/or frame bearings.

It could be that there are two benefits to be seen. One is the reduction in impacts. The second is the transfer to tough and hard-wearing hub bearings that may be more than capable of taking the load. In which case it really is, at the very least, a big evolutionary step forward. I don't believe that it's a re-invention of the drive train, but it is very clever.

I am also prepared to accept all of Srams's claims; they are after all legally bound to be honest in their claims. But they are not bound to reveal any downsides, that is for the customers to discover. Once upon a time, flexible stems had many positive claims. Darwin's Law applies to bike tech as well. So if we are all riding this Sram Transmission in five year's time, then the doubters will have been silenced and the early adopters will be justified in saying "I told you so!"

 

[Dax]

I get it @SwampNut, but is it massive? Teslas are amazing for a number of reasons but don't drink the Kool-Aid.

An ICE vehicle is probably in the area of £1000 per 100,000 miles for a brake service, which would be two pad replacements and one disc change, so maybe you do that every 200,000 miles in a Tesla, so your savings are £500 every 100,000 miles.

Of course, these are just numbers and have no bearing in the real world as people have different weights in their left and right feet which determines how fast they drive and quickly they stop...

Off topic, but I was thinking we need to check this math. My daily gets a set of brakes on it roughly every 30k. At todays prices set of discs and pads all round is £330, plus £250 labour. So over a 200k vehicle lifetime, the Tesla owner would save £4000 on brakes, 4% doesn’t seem a massive percentage on a £100k car over 200k miles.

I do think teslas are interesting, but not because they accelerate quickly, are cheap to run or have gullwing rear doors - but because the self driving tech is an glimpse of the future, where we are no longer tied to the drivers seat.

 

[Rob Rides EMTB]

Ultimately this isn’t reinvention, this is incremental improvement. No argument it like a big improvement and I’m considering one for my ksl, although I’m still interested to see what happens when you hook the £600 mech on a rock at 20mph…

The Mech can move both inboard (via the overload clutch, absorbing some side impact forces) as well as rotate backwards, absorbing / moving out of the way from frontal impacts.

Rebuild kits are also available at reasonable prices.

Could it be broken in an unlucky crash? Yes, of course.

Is it less likely now its almost 1cm more inboard, has a stronger clutch, and more fore / aft movement? Highly likely.

Bent hangers are a thing on 'traditional' systems that can hamper shifting and drivetrain performance. I havent read a single test of the new stuff that had issues using this new kit. I've been riding it since November 2022. But, with anything, stuff will break and no doubt there will be issues along the line in unlucky circumstances.

When this trickles down to more affordable options I think its a no brainer, the performance is very very good, and GX compared to X01 performance on the prior kit was 99% as good but 60% of the cost (or whatever the cost was, cant remember exact pricing off the top of my head!)

(ps - I've already Transmission for my new bike).

 

[SwampNut]

on a £100k car

Sigh. More incorrect assumptions. They are less than half that. I bought my Model 3 long range for $45k with 16k miles on it, and now they are even cheaper as Tesla had price reductions. I paid about $4k more than a similar midsize ICE car, which has already all been paid back in gasoline savings alone. Plus no engine filters, no oil changes, etc...

 

[Alexbn921]

The Mech can move both inboard (via the overload clutch, absorbing some side impact forces) as well as rotate backwards, absorbing / moving out of the way from frontal impacts.

Same as current AXS.

The problem I see is that they removed the fuse that is the hanger. Now that energy can't be dissipated into a cheap part.

I'm not going to get it and I don't really think it's the best design. It is innovative and I can see some benefits for people that don't or can't work on their bikes. Overall it's a side step with a huge price of entry.

OEM will love it and I can't wait to see how it actually holds up.

As far as parts, if you hit it hard enough to break a linkage, you most likely bent whatever it's attached to.

 

[beanzz]

The problem I see is that they removed the fuse that is the hanger. Now that energy can't be dissipated into a cheap part.

I've never bent a hangar despite obliterating several derailleurs

 

[SwampNut]

I've never bent a hangar despite obliterating several derailleurs

This seems to vary by person or just luck. I have a friend who has bent several hangers, and he even carries one on rides. He told me to "stock up." I've never bent one. We ride the same speeds in the same terrain. Recently, another friend destroyed his derailleur on a ride with us, and his hanger seemed fine.

 

[RebornRider]

Wow, quite a lively thread. Two things pop to mind.

1. Back in my muscle car days I used to do full-power, no-lift shifts. This was decades before the ECU did all the clever stuff for you. It was fast, it was impressive, and it was massive abuse of the hardware. When I visualize a full-power derailleur shift, I'm imaging that the power must be temporarily transferred from chain to cassette through the edges of the chain links rather than the pins. I'm sure you can do it, but it sounds like abuse to me. I really don't mind hesitating the power for an eye blink when shifting.
2. Lots of chitter chatter about "re-invented". Unless you are a marketing wank, that term is an oxymoron.

I'm so glad to be an engineer and therefore immune to Marketing Speak