Specialized reliability?

[Jetpilot]

Well an "average" tells you the average, which is usually not a lot, which is why other statistical indicators are used in addition all the time to properly understand a situation.
And making a product fit for its intended purpose (e.g. for the kenevo "strong guy riding 25% uphill in boost/shuttle+to throw it back down, repeat", see their videos then in doubt) is everything but "over engineering" it.
And what whatever company is going to do at least partly also depends on customer feedback which is why we are here.
Maybe you come down your high horse one day after maybee pushing back your broken 25Kg rig 20km uphill home through the outback to then wait two weeks to get it fixed. I already had my share of that by now.

Just because i am offering an alternate opinion and viewpoint, doesnt mean i am on a high horse. I dont see anywhere where i mention averages either, what i said without putting words in my mouth is, sales to % of failures for all manufacturers, its not about an average, a statiscal % of returns for failures, i would bet my left nut its pretty even across the board.

I agree customer feedback is important, but still and maybe sadly, a very small % overall, its hardly recall terrority, room for improvement, of course, but until you see it hitting sales figures its unlikely to change, however much that and an alternate view gets you bent of shape!

I enjoyed my Bosch Haibike and now enjoying my Brose spesh, both ridden throughout the year, i dont doubt the day i will have a failure, but not jumping on the brose is sh*t, till in my experience it proves to be that way, so no need to get more bent out of shape with a snippy reply, just giving some customer feedback, which is why we are all here as you say

 

[High Rock Ruti]

Well an "average" tells you the average, which is usually not a lot, which is why other statistical indicators are used in addition all the time to properly understand a situation.
And making a product fit for its intended purpose (e.g. for the kenevo "strong guy riding 25% uphill in boost/shuttle+to throw it back down, repeat", see their videos then in doubt) is everything but "over engineering" it.
And what whatever company is going to do at least partly also depends on customer feedback which is why we are here.
Maybe you come down your high horse one day after pushing back your broken 25Kg rig 20km uphill home through the outback to then wait two weeks to get it fixed instead of enjoying your yearly vacation. I already had my share of that by now.

High Rock Ruti

Broken bike he's already off the horse

 

[jose castillo Australia]

Specialized has fixed all the issues (battery, motor, derailleur) . Two bikes from Specialized. I will buy the Levo SL in the feature. All ebike or bikes will need service or replacement due to human error. The problems are when the manufacture doesn't fix the issues, then I will switch brands. cheers

 

[urastus]

I'm just putting it here because it seems appropriate and might help someone?

 

[urastus]

Sorry but any average failure rate does not tell a thing. The majority of MTBs are never nearly ridden as intended in terms km, descends, terrain and general strain. And this drops the failure rate significantly and is the one big reason vendors get away with the low durability they offer.
And then the small group of freaks (read: people riding seriously and posting their 2000€ upgrades in forums) stick with all the issues, one after the other. But for the vendors that's fine and even doesn´t cost anything as it's a tiny group and the QA responsible can always pull his "average failure rate <1%" card. Its just shit for us.

I have to disagree with this too I recently spent a month in Thailand. We hired a couple of scooters in Bangkok and explored on those. Mine had over 80,000km and was still strong. Thais aren't renowned for maintenance and they do everything you can imagine with those scooters - a family can fit on one. They also make these platforms out to the side of them for carrying farm produce, shopping, delivering ice or shop supplies. Thailand is still a poor country, yet they all buy scooters because they are reliable and durable despite lack of maintenance.

 

[SquireRides]

"The average weight of a scooter is 250 pounds, or 115 kilograms...."

The engine alone is 40kg+

If Specialized design parameters allowed for a motor that heavy, yeah, it could be made really reliable.

 

[urastus]

yeah, if you want to focus on the motor. It's everything though, and generally done to a budget. For example, no speedo issues! Just basic everyday stuff that keeps working. And, they're cheaper to buy! I'm not saying this as a specialized issue, it's clearly all motors, batteries, speed sensors - generally everything e in mtb is the problem. Yet no where near the consistency of these problems in budget manufactured scooters that are just used way beyond their design parameters. Sure, you can defend emtb, but why? I think they should be better, more reliable, more longevity just for the e side of things.

 

[CjP]

I’d love to see that reliability if you took a scooter on a motocross track or up a mountain trail.

 

[urastus]

I’d love to see that reliability if you took a scooter on a motocross track or up a mountain trail.

They do everything, literally. We did lots of mountain track (single track) and tracks through farms. Because these things are auto, so slow and low powered, they climb anything, and with two or more people on usually. I was focused on the ride in those conditions, so no photos. I get that you're trying to defend emtb as they are now, and I'm saying the e in emtb should be better. That's OK.

 

[SquireRides]

Not defending emtb. Defending material science and the laws of physics.

Could emtb be better? Yes, a bit. They're still very new, and relatively low-volume. They will get marginally better in terms of reliability, in the same way that mtb components have got better in the last 30 years.

But they will never be like scooters, or any hunks of steel strapped to 40kg+ combustion engine. That's day dreaming. The design parameters and technology are completely different. You can't compare them.

 

[CjP]

Of course they should be better, in a perfect world nothing should break down but emtb are still pretty new. At the end of the day most bike brands are relying on other brands for reliability. It will take years to work out what works and what doesn’t. Obviously companies like Specialized have realised there is room to improve and are now using a different brand of motor system for their new bikes. Hopefully that can solve some of the issues people seem to have on this forum and in future provide a better product.

 

[Careyj1]

I bought a NEW 2019 n Sworks Turbo Levo, 6 weeks ago, love the bike, 598 miles and then today, the motor stopped, it makes a loud sound. Based on other people's videos, I think it is the belt. I am calling the shop where I purchased the bike tomorrow morning.

 

[comtn]

I bought a NEW 2019 n Sworks Turbo Levo, 6 weeks ago, love the bike, 598 miles and then today, the motor stopped, it makes a loud sound. Based on other people's videos, I think it is the belt. I am calling the shop where I purchased the bike tomorrow morning.

5-600 seems to be a common number if you ride hard. I’m hoping my replacement motor will have the upgraded belt and tensioner.

 

[comtn]

It's been a week since my belt broke. Called the dealer to check up and they haven't done a damn thing. Bunch of excuses and told me they would call specialized to see what they could do. What a pos dealer. Time to find a new one apparently.

 

[wepn]

I bought a NEW 2019 n Sworks Turbo Levo, 6 weeks ago, love the bike, 598 miles and then today, the motor stopped, it makes a loud sound. Based on other people's videos, I think it is the belt. I am calling the shop where I purchased the bike tomorrow morning.

It's been a week since my belt broke. Called the dealer to check up and they haven't done a damn thing. Bunch of excuses and told me they would call specialized to see what they could do. What a pos dealer. Time to find a new one apparently.

My prediction: being in the US, being $WORKS, being brand new, you'll be being helped fairly quickly. Give top floor a call, I'm sure they can recommend better treatment at an excellent dealer not far away.. Otherwise what's a SW for?

 

[High Rock Ruti]

My prediction: being in the US, being $WORKS, being brand new, you'll be being helped fairly quickly. Give top floor a call, I'm sure they can recommend better treatment at an excellent dealer not far away.. Otherwise what's a SW for?

It's been a week since my belt broke. Called the dealer to check up and they haven't done a damn thing. Bunch of excuses and told me they would call specialized to see what they could do. What a pos dealer. Time to find a new one apparently.

High Rock Ruti

I suggest calling Specialized directly and ask them to expedite the repair, I've spoken to them many times and had great experiences.

 

[Careyj1]

My dealer, already had a an order for replacement motors, they are trying to get the motors in as soon as possible. I don't blame the dealer, it's Specialized. They have a motor problem and they should be more proactive in solving the problem. Example, maybe send a dealership extra motors equal to 10 percent of their Turbo Levo sales. Also, they should either extend the warranty or offer product discounts to those that need motor replacement. One week is reasonable, longer is not. Another option is to offer a demo bike while your bike is in the shop. Shops would have to carry more demos but that might be a solution. I think the shops and Specialized need to think differently if they want to really own the E market. Lots of new competitors coming into the market, I wouldn't want to turn my customers into customers for other brands due to motor failure and poor customer experience. Also Specialized should move out of the the bay area, Nevada or Utah would be a much better place for business, lower costs for the business and employees. Run the company to be the best.

 

[High Rock Ruti]

My dealer, already had a an order for replacement motors, they are trying to get the motors in as soon as possible. I don't blame the dealer, it's Specialized. They have a motor problem and they should be more proactive in solving the problem. Example, maybe send a dealership extra motors equal to 10 percent of their Turbo Levo sales. Also, they should either extend the warranty or offer product discounts to those that need motor replacement. One week is reasonable, longer is not. Another option is to offer a demo bike while your bike is in the shop. Shops would have to carry more demos but that might be a solution. I think the shops and Specialized need to think differently if they want to really own the E market. Lots of new competitors coming into the market, I wouldn't want to turn my customers into customers for other brands due to motor failure and poor customer experience. Also Specialized should move out of the the bay area, Nevada or Utah would be a much better place for business, lower costs for the business and employees. Run the company to be the best.

High Rock Ruti

All good suggestions, except asking them to move the company. I found the lack of replacement motors to be very revealing of excessive demand for more motors, belt and clutch failure on the brand new hyped S Mag. However, I'm waiting on a Shimano E8000 motor right now. Back ordered until July I'll cut Shimano a break for supply chain problems. But I not happy about it. 4 years old this July and thousands of fault free service miles.

 

[Bmwgsboy]

High Rock Ruti

I suggest calling Specialized directly and ask them to expedite the repair, I've spoken to them many times and had great experiences.

Good luck trying to call Specialized I’m still waiting on a call back from 2 weeks ago. Apparently they got rid of most of their staff due to the COVo.Apparently they got rid of most of their staff due to the COVID-19

 

[High Rock Ruti]

Good luck trying to call Specialized I’m still waiting on a call back from 2 weeks ago. Apparently they got rid of most of their staff due to the COVo.Apparently they got rid of most of their staff due to the COVID-19

High Rock Ruti
Didn't consider it, that is terribly frustrating to hear.

 

[beutelfuchs]

I dont see anywhere where i mention averages either

Well then let me remind you:

What do you think a global company will do, over engineer a product at increased costs for "a small group of freaks" or live with a > 1% failure rate which costs them less, which is most likely a split cost with Brose.

What´s the ">1%" if not an "average"?

And that's what you don´t (want) to understand: While this number might describe well the costs of service a manufacturer has, it does not at all describe the amount of failure a specific group of users has to suffer which is by accident utilizing the product as intended. Because the failure rate within their group is a lot higher than any overall average.

And yes, coming here and telling this group you don´t even belong to as someone who rides haibike (no offense, but thats just a different type of sport and I also believe that you would not break a Kenevo in ages) that everything is fine and any improvement would be "over engineering" might be indeed be an "alternate opinion", but its one coming from sitting on a high horse next to being everything but helpful.

I have to disagree with this too I recently spent a month in Thailand.

Sorry, not sure what you want to tell me with that story. Same as the guy who always answers by saying his own name.

 

[comtn]

My dealer called on a Thursday and had a new motor in his shop on Monday.

 

[High Rock Ruti]

Well then let me remind you:

What´s the ">1%" if not an "average"?

And that's what you don´t (want) to understand: While this number might describe well the costs of service a manufacturer has, it does not at all describe the amount of failure a specific group of users has to suffer which is by accident utilizing the product as intended. Because the failure rate within their group is a lot higher than any overall average.

And yes, coming here and telling this group you don´t even belong to as someone who rides haibike (no offense, but thats just a different type of sport and I also believe that you would not break a Kenevo in ages) that everything is fine and any improvement would be "over engineering" might be indeed be an "alternate opinion", but its one coming from sitting on a high horse next to being everything but helpful.

Sorry, not sure what you want to tell me with that story. Same as the guy who always answers by saying his own name.

High Rock Ruti

 

[Zero]

If you think the failure rate of Specialized ebikes is 1% then you need to go back to school. When 1 person can have 6 new motors in 1 bike then you have a serious problem. 2018 bikes were bad enough but nothing like how bad the 2019+ bikes are. Only a moron would make a whole motor unserviceable by making the belt none replaceable. The failure rate of Brose is insane and 2020 motors are not any better than 2019 which shows they cant solve the issue even when they know they have one.

Everyone purchasing a brose bike is just "hoping" they are not going to be the unlucky ones. Problem is that its not a case of if you are going to be affected but when. This makes this bike worthless on the used market and a seriously bad situation for the value of used ebikes with only uninformed buyers who would take the risk on.

The motor cannot handle the 410% assistance it advertises. Not only that it has some crap manufacturing quality in its other parts too. Add that to the usual dicky batteries which everyone seems to have you have a recipe for serious disappointment.

7 grand for a 2 year shelf life Kenevo Expert... that is unacceptable and ill not touch Spesh until they resolve the issues.

 

[Eebs]

If you think the failure rate of Specialized ebikes is 1% then you need to go back to school. When 1 person can have 6 new motors in 1 bike then you have a serious problem. 2018 bikes were bad enough but nothing like how bad the 2019+ bikes are. Only a moron would make a whole motor unserviceable by making the belt none replaceable. The failure rate of Brose is insane and 2020 motors are not any better than 2019 which shows they cant solve the issue even when they know they have one.

Everyone purchasing a brose bike is just "hoping" they are not going to be the unlucky ones. Problem is that its not a case of if you are going to be affected but when. This makes this bike worthless on the used market and a seriously bad situation for the value of used ebikes with only uninformed buyers who would take the risk on.

The motor cannot handle the 410% assistance it advertises. Not only that it has some crap manufacturing quality in its other parts too. Add that to the usual dicky batteries which everyone seems to have you have a recipe for serious disappointment.

7 grand for a 2 year shelf life Kenevo Expert... that is unacceptable and ill not touch Spesh until they resolve the issues.

Around 5% according to Macro Sondregger (Senior Produc Manager).

 

[Zero]

Around 5% according to Macro Sondregger (Senior Produc Manager).

Lol. If you believe that then good luck.

1 bike and 6 motors does not represent a 5% failure rate. I bet in the UK it's even worse due to wet weather. Someone should start a survey.

Also how many bikes are sitting in peoples garages with 50 miles on them? I bet a vast majority barely get used.

 

[Levo-Lon]

Around 5% according to Macro Sondregger (Senior Produc Manager).

People still buy Land Rover cars..they can only dream of a 5% failure rate.
The factory cant even sort some of the faults,
My son in laws franchise takes 45% of their turnover in Jaguar land rover warranty claims..?

 

[Eebs]

Lol. If you believe that then good luck.

1 bike and 6 motors does not represent a 5% failure rate. I bet in the UK it's even worse due to wet weather. Someone should start a survey.

Also how many bikes are sitting in peoples garages with 50 miles on them? I bet a vast majority barely get used.

Exactly, it does not accurately represent the 5% failure rate. This 1 bike and 6 motors, how is this bike been ridden, where is it being ridden? I would tend to not believe the figures either, however, Macro came across as very open and honest throughout the interview. The Specialized ebikes aren't the only things that suffer from failures. Look at the issues with the new bi turbo Ford Ranger's are having with the gear boxes. But they are still the most popular ute in Australia and this goes for many vehicle manufactures around the world.

You mention shelf life in your previous post, I disagree. I bet you would spend more on servicing your car in two years than it would cost to replace the motor on a levo. I recently bought a Yeti sb150 from a bloke for 5,800 AUD, he purchased it for nearly 13k last year. He has lost 7k in a year and there was an identical 150 being sold for the same price. Depreciation. I sold my Levo last year with no issues at all and had plenty of interest.

 

[Doug Stampfer]

People still buy Land Rover cars..they can only dream of a 5% failure rate.
The factory cant even sort some of the faults,
My son in laws franchise takes 45% of their turnover in Jaguar land rover warranty claims..?

Yes but in a Land rover every thing can go wrong. The issue with the bike is generally one component.

 

[Zero]

Exactly, it does not accurately represent the 5% failure rate. This 1 bike and 6 motors, how is this bike been ridden, where is it being ridden? I would tend to not believe the figures either, however, Macro came across as very open and honest throughout the interview. The Specialized ebikes aren't the only things that suffer from failures. Look at the issues with the new bi turbo Ford Ranger's are having with the gear boxes. But they are still the most popular ute in Australia and this goes for many vehicle manufactures around the world.

You mention shelf life in your previous post, I disagree. I bet you would spend more on servicing your car in two years than it would cost to replace the motor on a levo. I recently bought a Yeti sb150 from a bloke for 5,800 AUD, he purchased it for nearly 13k last year. He has lost 7k in a year and there was an identical 150 being sold for the same price. Depreciation. I sold my Levo last year with no issues at all and had plenty of interest.

You think a spesh employee is going to tell you the true failure rate? Imagine if he said 1 in 3 fail. Would you buy it? No chance. The fact he said 5% rather than the stock reply of 1% is telling in itself. The market knows they are unreliable. They just dont know how bad it is. You will know just how bad it is when Brose is a gone from the next Levo/kenevo redesign.

Also selling a Levo 1 year in of course you have no issues. The problems will start when 2020 models end of warranty and the market is well educated and bike shops are telling customers to steer clear of Brose motors.

Also what does depreciation on some random used bike have to do with future value of unreliable specialized bikes?

People are far too accepting of this problem. No other product would be expected to have this kind of failure rate. Imagine if your tesla blew motors like Brose does. There would be class action suits all over america already.