Levo Gen 2 So how many levos go bang after owners mod or chip motors?

[Levo-Lon]

Read a lot on here about levos motors ,but how many go bag due to interference?

Reading some reviews it seems other than severe abuse and pressure washing it seems to be the messing with power output greater speed that causes the big bang.

Any thoughts?

 

[Levo-Lon]

Obviously no one interferes with their levos then ?

 

[dobbyhasfriends]

does it make a difference? the design of the motor allows it to exceed the speed limits set by different areas of the world.
so by design it can go as fast as your legs can spin it with assistance.
then its speed limited by software to each area its shipped to, its not power limited.

I guess its a bit like buying a 125cc 2 stroke a few years back when they left the factory capable or around 28hp and then were limited in the UK to 12hp, same engine, same capability. it totally ruined the bike of course and most of them ran like dogs because of it, bit like ebikes.

 

[Levo-Lon]

does it make a difference? the design of the motor allows it to exceed the speed limits set by different areas of the world.
so by design it can go as fast as your legs can spin it with assistance.
then its speed limited by software to each area its shipped to, its not power limited.

I guess its a bit like buying a 125cc 2 stroke a few years back when they left the factory capable or around 28hp and then were limited in the UK to 12hp, same engine, same capability. it totally ruined the bike of course and most of them ran like dogs because of it, bit like ebikes.

Factory settings are fine, I was talking tampering..big difference as messing with reed valves exhaust and jets usually result in a seized engine on the little 2 strokes.
Unless you knew what's what..

 

[dobbyhasfriends]

Factory settings are fine, I was talking tampering..big difference as messing with reed valves exhaust and jets usually result in a seized engine on the little 2 strokes.
Unless you knew what's what..

ah you mean like 'proper' tuning, getting more watts from the motor?

 

[Zimmerframe]

ah you mean like 'proper' tuning, getting more watts from the motor?

Haven't heard of anyone upping the amperage on the Brose. Other than Specialized, who did a firmware update to increase 1.3's from 16a to 20a.

It's quite easy to do it on the Shimano - but in turn , it's quite easy to melt it down very quickly by doing so ! I tried it on my Shimano for one ride. There was a bit more poke, but the experience was horrible. It was really really unsmooth/jerky in Turbo (even worse than normal). Comparing times, it gained me about 1 second on climbs, so I guess even though you can up things, that doesn't necessarily convert to real world performance gains due to it operating outside of what already been setup as most efficient within certain criteria.

If something similar happened with Brose tuning, I'd guess the "Jerky" response would lead to considerably faster belt wear/destruction.

 

[Levo-Lon]

Haven't heard of anyone upping the amperage on the Brose. Other than Specialized, who did a firmware update to increase 1.3's from 16a to 20a.

It's quite easy to do it on the Shimano - but in turn , it's quite easy to melt it down very quickly by doing so ! I tried it on my Shimano for one ride. There was a bit more poke, but the experience was horrible. It was really really unsmooth/jerky in Turbo (even worse than normal). Comparing times, it gained me about 1 second on climbs, so I guess even though you can up things, that doesn't necessarily convert to real world performance gains due to it operating outside of what already been setup as most efficient within certain criteria.

If something similar happened with Brose tuning, I'd guess the "Jerky" response would lead to considerably faster belt wear/destruction.

Yes that's what I was getting at..

We have a 2019 Levo reliability thread , I was just wondering if anyone had fubard the motor due to experimenting ?
And if they would admit it after ?

 

[dobbyhasfriends]

Yes that's what I was getting at..

We have a 2019 Levo reliability thread , I was just wondering if anyone had fubard the motor due to experimenting ?
And if they would admit it after ?

gotcha... yea ive no idea mate, I wouldnt think that would be too clever, its an electric motor and if you ask too much of it usually the smoke comes out

 

[ReinerSt0ff77]

Mine blow yesterday with Levocyraptor on it and 38 Chainring 2600km,i get a new Motor and Spesh analyze my old Motor on manipulationan then decide Garantee or not,when not i must pay 1000 bucks plus the Mechanic.

Stay tuned....

Brose Motor ever.

 

[Mikerb]

Probably the full account is in that extensive other thread but just as an observer it does seem to me there are some possible themes to the reliability or not of the Brose motor. For example it seems strange that several people have commented on having multiple replacement motors.....whilst quite probably the vast majority have had no failures. I would not be surprised either to see on any analysis that there seems to be more failures in specific geographic areas perhaps reflecting the weather conditions and typical use. Whilst there are probably as many Levos sold as all other comparable EMTBs put together those other brands/motors also have their failures ( obviously in smaller numbers) so I am not sure in reality the Brose is any better or worse in that respect than other brands.
Leaving aside the potential problems of water ingress, mostly through washing the bike, I suspect the main reason for failure is how the bike is used rather than any tuning interference. As others have said the motor is fully capable supporting higher speeds and that is what most tuning is a bout. I am not casting blame on the user with that statement but merely recognising the vast difference in mileage, terrain, and type of use between riders. As per any machine used for racing if you push the motor to its limits all of the time, or a lot of the time, it is likely to need overhaul. Maybe that is the case here.

 

[Levo-Lon]

I live in a relatively flat area of the UK.
My levo is nearly always in eco mode.

Heat may be a factor if thrashing up a long climb in full power mode in 100 plus degrees of heat..

 

[steviedsolve]

I know a guy, who knew a guy with a haibike and yamaha motor that had it chipped. He uses the EXPW 80nm mode flat out for 3 hours straight (2 x 500wh batteries) and had no issues at all. He's been doing that a few times a month for over a year and not even a slight hiccup apparently. He's gone through 3 cassettes and chains in a year though. I know that's not drawing extra power but I guess it definitely drives the motor harder than the 25 kph limit would and the chain stretch would suggest the motor won't be the limiting factor.

 

[Gareth Bowen]

MY Levo three and half years old. Not touched the motor. Used every
couple of days. Trouble free, unlike like old Gas Gas dirt bikes! ?
GAR

 

[lumpy]

I'm not aware of any chips or mods where someone can up the power the motor produces.

 

[Zero]

There is a version of the brose which has same spec and does 28mph. more speed shouldnt kill the motor any faster, especially if there is a model which does 28mph as standard

 

[speedkills]

With the Brose though, I have a hunch it's just the Specialized versions because they have the firmware push out 20amps vs the 15amps they normally put out, and were likely designed for. It reminds me of a vehicle I used to have, a GMC Syclone, GMC didn't have a transmission available that was rated for the torque the Syclone engine put out, so they just derated the engine saying it put out the exact torque the transmission was rated for. Everyone knew it was a lie, the motor put out much more torque and they blew transmissions left and right. Worse yet, you could just crank the boost up a little on the turbo and get far more power out of them, and destroy transmissions even faster. I had 3 transmission rebuilds in 2 years. Now I have Rovers and a Levo, so apparently as long as it's fun I don't tend to give a damn about reliability. But seriously, if you took your turbo-charged car, put a chip in it to add 25% power you would probably expect less reliability. Specialized did this. I'm sure they will beef it up and figure it out eventually, but I can't help but think there is a reason Brose limited the normal version to 15amps.

 

[wepn]

With the Brose though, I have a hunch it's just the Specialized versions because they have the firmware push out 20amps vs the 15amps they normally put out, and were likely designed for.

I think you could be right. Amps = heat - and an extra 33% isn't trivial. Now let's say a 95 kg amateur bodybuilder with 5 kg of protein snacks goes Turbo up a 15% mountain trail, it's not difficult to imagine a fast-tracked meltdown scenario despite thermal rollback. Heat degradation on the belt is almost certainly accumulative.

 

[speedkills]

Brose designer has already said that the motor itself can put out more power, but the belt can't handle it. Seems like they are pushing the line just a bit too closely on the belt even with the limits they set.

 

[apac]

upping the peak amps will not make a bike faster. It will make acceleration stronger. In other words it will add to torque.
To make an electric motor faster you need to up the volts, which is a safer option.

I would be very very cautious increasing the amps on these types of motors. It will put much more stress on the motor gears, cogs, belts etc. If there are nylon gears for example they can strip, or even turn into peanut butter as there is more waste heat being produced. Nylon tends to be the manufacturers choice as they substantially reduce noise compared to metal cogs n gears and are cheap to produce.

Saying that, what I’ve mentioned are Extreme examples.

Remember that adding more amps can mean needing thicker wires for the current to travel down. High amps and thin wires will make high resistance in the wire making heat. It will also make a potential voltage sag as the battery can’t supply the amps it’s designed for to feed what the motor is trying to pull. Voltage sag Puts strain on the batteries and will lower performance.
And remember that the cells used in these bikes are not high drain cells so you can be adding more stress and heat to the battery pack by asking them to release more amps than they maybe designed for.

ok, so what i’ve said are probably extreme examples, but these things must be understood before playing around with amperage.

 

[Zero]

Brose designer has already said that the motor itself can put out more power, but the belt can't handle it. Seems like they are pushing the line just a bit too closely on the belt even with the limits they set.

Its not the belt that fails most of the time but the sprag clutch.

It's pretty bad when berkshire says hes changed 120 motors in just lockdown period.

Think about that. That's 120 motors over 2 month period. All failing at same time for a motor that been around since 2018.

That 5% figure is a lie from specialized. I'd say its more likely to be 5% at any one time are broken. When you hear stories that 3 mates all have broken bikes at the same same time that isnt a 5% failure rate.

I'd say every bike that does 1000 miles in 2 years will fail once. There just isnt enough people without problems to suggest otherwise.

 

[Zimmerframe]

It's pretty bad when berkshire says hes changed 120 motors in just lockdown period.

Think about that. That's 120 motors over 2 month period. All failing at same time for a motor that been around since 2018.

That 5% figure is a lie from specialized. I'd say its more likely to be 5% at any one time are broken. When you hear stories that 3 mates all have broken bikes at the same same time that isnt a 5% failure rate.

A long long time ago .... in a galaxy far away ..... I started logging motor failures against numbers of motor types on the forum. I combine this with information from friends with bike shops who sell "multi-brand" to at least give me some form of structure to work from.

The numbers are way way too open for errors because of the presumptions I have to make, hence why I normally don't even mention them - except lately, to reassure people that the odds are that your e-bike won't actually break and we don't all need to live in fear.

I started it selfishly just for me, as at the time I was terrified I'd buy something which would break. I stopped logging last week as it's generally pointless and for me it served it's purpose.

So over the last 12 months, My Guestimated figures put Brose failures at 7%. That's higher than Spesh say, but then Spesh are probably talking about all e-bikes and I'm only measuring mountain bikes.

For comparison, using the same system, I have e8000 failures at 5%.

If he's changed 120 motors and you then compare that to the enormous catchment area Berkshire cycles has when it comes to repairs- All of the UK ! The numbers of Kenevo's and Levo's out there is a crazy number ! So the 120 as a % is tiny.

I ended up buying a Kenevo .. it's had the crap hammered out of it by an incompetent moron and it's totally problem free.

EDIT : Also to note : using the same logging system, Bosch Gen 4 is presently more prone to failure than Brose. Fortunately this is only software related so they can address it quite easily.

 

[Doomanic]

I ended up buying a Kenevo .. it's had the crap hammered out of it by an incompetent moron and it's totally problem free.

Hey! I haven’t touched your fucking bike!

 

[Zero]

A long long time ago .... in a galaxy far away ..... I started logging motor failures against numbers of motor types on the forum. I combine this with information from friends with bike shops who sell "multi-brand" to at least give me some form of structure to work from.

The numbers are way way too open for errors because of the presumptions I have to make, hence why I normally don't even mention them - except lately, to reassure people that the odds are that your e-bike won't actually break and we don't all need to live in fear.

I started it selfishly just for me, as at the time I was terrified I'd buy something which would break. I stopped logging last week as it's generally pointless and for me it served it's purpose.

So over the last 12 months, My Guestimated figures put Brose failures at 7%. That's higher than Spesh say, but then Spesh are probably talking about all e-bikes and I'm only measuring mountain bikes.

For comparison, using the same system, I have e8000 failures at 5%.

If he's changed 120 motors and you then compare that to the enormous catchment area Berkshire cycles has when it comes to repairs- All of the UK ! The numbers of Kenevo's and Levo's out there is a crazy number ! So the 120 as a % is tiny.

I ended up buying a Kenevo .. it's had the crap hammered out of it by an incompetent moron and it's totally problem free.

EDIT : Also to note : using the same logging system, Bosch Gen 4 is presently more prone to failure than Brose. Fortunately this is only software related so they can address it quite easily.

I just put the battery in my new Kenevo so we will find out lol

 

[Levo-Lon]

Some good replies ,and good points raised.

Sprag clutch problems could be a lot to do with heavy stomping on the pedals when attacking climbs ,wrong gear ect ect.

Having owned a Aprilia RSV 1000 with a Rotax engine sprag clutch failure is common. And there all sterl bearing jobbies

 

[Zero]

Some good replies ,and good points raised.

Sprag clutch problems could be a lot to do with heavy stomping on the pedals when attacking climbs ,wrong gear ect ect.

Having owned a Aprilia RSV 1000 with a Rotax engine sprag clutch failure is common. And there all sterl bearing jobbies

Well the SL motor had a sprag too and no real problems. Maybe just a weakness they will have to address.

 

[speedkills]

upping the peak amps will not make a bike faster. It will make acceleration stronger. In other words it will add to torque.
To make an electric motor faster you need to up the volts, which is a safer option.

I'm not completely sure how this relates to the discussion (maybe because specialized increased the amperage on the Brose?) but this information is incorrect so I'm just flagging it so someone else doesn't read it and internalize it.

watts are a measure of power
watts = volts * amps

You need more power to accelerate faster, and more power to push more wind to hold a higher top speed. The rest is just gearing.

 

[Master_G]

Haven't heard of anyone upping the amperage on the Brose. Other than Specialized, who did a firmware update to increase 1.3's from 16a to 20a.

It's quite easy to do it on the Shimano - but in turn , it's quite easy to melt it down very quickly by doing so ! I tried it on my Shimano for one ride. There was a bit more poke, but the experience was horrible. It was really really unsmooth/jerky in Turbo (even worse than normal). Comparing times, it gained me about 1 second on climbs, so I guess even though you can up things, that doesn't necessarily convert to real world performance gains due to it operating outside of what already been setup as most efficient within certain criteria.

If something similar happened with Brose tuning, I'd guess the "Jerky" response would lead to considerably faster belt wear/destruction.

What firmware version was this? i bought mine back in Sept and its not been back for its update yet

 

[Zimmerframe]

What firmware version was this? i bought mine back in Sept and its not been back for its update yet

If I remember correctly it was the change to 5.0.4 . If you bought it in September, there's a good chance it had the 5.0.4 already.

 

[Nicho]

it's had the crap hammered out of it by an incompetent moron and it's totally problem free.

You do realise that now you have posted this it is sure to completely fail next time you ride it?

 

[Zimmerframe]

You do realise that now you have posted this it is sure to completely fail next time you ride it?

Yes. It does now feel like I'm playing chicken with the universe .........