Shimano EP8 Spindle Failures and People getting injured. Where to now?

[Hitorogoshi]

At the end of the day all this hoohaa is making people aware. Just like the guys above people are not accepting bikes and sometimes not even buying them if they have E13 cranks. Which is good.

Next up..... Accountability

 

[RickBullotta]

Its an interesting one this, my instant opinion is to blame E13 as in my own personal experience they make some of the worst quality components I have had the displeasure of buying, but at the same time you have to give them the benefit of the doubt.

With the carbon cranks, I think they are 100% at fault here. Not as clear with the alloy cranks yet. But as I mentioned, I won't be buying any e*thirteen products any longer. It's a safety and reliability concern that I won't be able to get past. Remember, I was one of the first people to raise the alarm on the carbon crank arms falling off of my Rise - and it happened multiple times. I am apparently lucky that I did not damage the spindle in the process.

 

[Husky430]

Well after thinking I'd solved my right hand Shimano 160mm crank arm problem it came loose for a 3rd time on Saturday, just as I was about to hit a very high speed section with jumps. Good job I stood up to give it a couple of extra cranks for maximum speed when I noticed it coming off. We managed to get it back on with a bit of mucking around but just rode back to the cars after that.
The main problem is I just can't trust it and I've been lucky so far that I've not been doing anything too adventurous when it's let go. I've had no trouble with the left crank so starting to draw the conclusion that there is something dodgy with the right one and the splines are all a bit chewed up by now. Have ordered a new one so fingers crossed with that.

 

[Gary]

Have you guys used alu pre-load caps yet?
Solves the issue on E7/8000 motors

Search for the solution by using the search term "Alu preload caps" by my username. I've gone into detail as to exactly the cause and how this solution works on a couple of older threads

 

[urastus]

I am apparently lucky that I did not damage the spindle in the process.

or break an ankle, or worse. Imagine if it went on a jump or drop landing - something's going to hurt. That dh dude broke his ankle when his e13 crank snapped.

I haven't taken the view of whether it's e13 or shimano at fault. My view is that if shimano won't honour any spindle repair where non shimano cranks are used that is end of case for me.

 

[RickBullotta]

Well after thinking I'd solved my right hand Shimano 160mm crank arm problem it came loose for a 3rd time on Saturday, just as I was about to hit a very high speed section with jumps. Good job I stood up to give it a couple of extra cranks for maximum speed when I noticed it coming off. We managed to get it back on with a bit of mucking around but just rode back to the cars after that.
The main problem is I just can't trust it and I've been lucky so far that I've not been doing anything too adventurous when it's let go. I've had no trouble with the left crank so starting to draw the conclusion that there is something dodgy with the right one and the splines are all a bit chewed up by now. Have ordered a new one so fingers crossed with that.

Was it ever mounted in the incorrect orientation or without the safety plate?

 

[RickBullotta]

Just got the word that my EM900 cranks have shipped from Spain...now begins the next wait...

 

[Husky430]

Was it ever mounted in the incorrect orientation or without the safety plate?

No not at all, just can't work it out except there must be some small fault with it after all other cranks on the bike have been fine and this particular one coming loose 3 times now.
Will try and get some the alum end caps that Gary talks about in another thread, thanks for that Gary. Meant to measure the diameter of the thread as there seems to be 2 sizes there.
Does anyone know off hand the diameter of them? I'm at work now and would like to order some today.

 

[Gary]

M20 bro.

The reason arms come loose on ALL Steps axles is because unlike a proper HTII system on a normal bike the arms are not preloaded against anything. This means as they flex the arm moves slightly on the splines. eventually "walking" outwards on the axle. leaving the plastic cap no chance in holding it's threads. Even with correct crank arm pinch bolt torque
An oversight by Shimano's desingers/engineers for sure. But completely solvable by simply using metal pre-load caps.

I worked out the cause and solution over 4 years ago after my E8000 crank came off mid ride (early on in it's life)

Just buy two of these.

Pardon our interruption...

they tighten with a 10mm hex - and you can torque the bolts a little higher than the plastic caps. but don't go crazy with a long 10mm. tighten your crank arm pinchbolts to equal torque as normal.
Shimano crank arms will actually pinch down on the outer portion of the new caps and stop them from unwinding. previously I recommended loc tite on the threads but because of this it's not entirely neccessary.

I've done 30000+ miles on loads of Shimano motors over the last 4 years using these and never had another issue with them coming loose. But still come across riders with various Shimano motors who've lost an arm while riding.

 

[chrismechmaster]

M20 bro.

The reason arms come loose on ALL Steps axles is because unlike a proper HTII system on a normal bike the arms are not preloaded against anything. This means as they flex the arm moves slightly on the splines. eventually "walking" outwards on the axle. leaving the plastic cap no chance in holding it's threads. Even with correct crank arm pinch bolt torque
An oversight by Shimano's desingers/engineers for sure. But completely solvable by simply using metal pre-load caps.

I worked out the cause and solution over 4 years ago after my E8000 crank came off mid ride (early on in it's life)

Just buy two of these.

Pardon our interruption...

they tighten with a 10mm hex - and you can torque the bolts a little higher than the plastic caps. but don't go crazy with a long 10mm. tighten your crank arm pinchbolts to equal torque as normal.
Shimano crank arms will actually pinch down on the outer portion of the new caps and stop them from unwinding. previously I recommended loc tite on the threads but because of this it's not entirely neccessary.

I've done 30000+ miles on loads of Shimano motors over the last 4 years using these and never had another issue with them coming loose. But still come across riders with various Shimano motors who've lost an arm while riding.

Cheers for the link for these Gary just ordered a set what sort of torque figure would be used on these. ? 2nm ?

 

[Gary]

don't even bother with a torque wrench for those. Just use common sense.
pretty tight but Not stupidly tight

 

[chrismechmaster]

Also just wondering would you apply thread locker when using these ?

 

[Bigtuna00]

M20 bro.

The reason arms come loose on ALL Steps axles is because unlike a proper HTII system on a normal bike the arms are not preloaded against anything. This means as they flex the arm moves slightly on the splines. eventually "walking" outwards on the axle. leaving the plastic cap no chance in holding it's threads. Even with correct crank arm pinch bolt torque
An oversight by Shimano's desingers/engineers for sure. But completely solvable by simply using metal pre-load caps.

I worked out the cause and solution over 4 years ago after my E8000 crank came off mid ride (early on in it's life)

Just buy two of these.

Pardon our interruption...

they tighten with a 10mm hex - and you can torque the bolts a little higher than the plastic caps. but don't go crazy with a long 10mm. tighten your crank arm pinchbolts to equal torque as normal.
Shimano crank arms will actually pinch down on the outer portion of the new caps and stop them from unwinding. previously I recommended loc tite on the threads but because of this it's not entirely neccessary.

I've done 30000+ miles on loads of Shimano motors over the last 4 years using these and never had another issue with them coming loose. But still come across riders with various Shimano motors who've lost an arm while riding.

Unless Shimano says this is the solution, I would take it with a grain of salt. If you look at the spline profile on the axle you'll see they taper out at the end (they get wider as you move towards the center of the bike). Excessive preloading of the crank will cause it to move up onto this area, effective "stretching" the interface. Then when you clamp the pinch bolts, you're putting strain on the crank and basically just making the potential for loosening worse, not better. EDIT: I meant to say, if you look at something like an Isis spindle, where the bolt retains the crank, the mating surface is MUCH larger, so it can support the amount of torque the bolt applies.

Shimano uses plastic preload caps and a wimpy preload tool for a reason. They've also been using this 2 bolt spline interface for a lot longer than e-bikes have been around. I think stating it's an oversight by Shimano is pretty arrogant. In any case you likely void your warranty by over-tightening the preload.

(but if you have advice from Shimano that backs this up I'd be happy to try it too, I don't want my wife's bike falling apart!)

 

[Gary]

no one mentioned excessive preloading

 

[Gary]

Shimano uses plastic preload caps and a wimpy preload tool for a reason.

Yes.
Because it was designed for pre-loading the crank face against a normal outboard BB and too much pre-load would stop the bearings spinning properly.
The HTII interface was NEVER designed with an Ebike axle in mind.
AND THAT's WHERE SHIMANO MADE AN OVERSIGHT USING IT ON THEIR EBIKE MOTORS

Unless Shimano says this is the solution, I would take it with a grain of salt. If you look at the spline profile on the axle you'll see they taper out at the end (they get wider as you move towards the center of the bike). Excessive preloading of the crank will cause it to move up onto this area, effective "stretching" the interface. Then when you clamp the pinch bolts, you're putting strain on the crank and basically just making the potential for loosening worse, not better. EDIT: I meant to say, if you look at something like an Isis spindle, where the bolt retains the crank, the mating surface is MUCH larger, so it can support the amount of torque the bolt applies.

So much nonsense in this reply.
I honestly can't even be bothered correcting all your misinformation as you clearly have no clue what you're talking about.

 

[Bigtuna00]

I honestly can't even be bothered correcting all your misinformation as you clearly have no clue what you're talking about.

Ditto

 

[urastus]

I don't doubt that shimano has some hand in the failures here, however I keep coming across e13 crank issues too. It just seems to be a lose lose combo. Check out the video from 13 minutes:

 

[urastus]

Cheers for the link for these Gary just ordered a set what sort of torque figure would be used on these. ? 2nm ?

Shimano's own tool for end cap tightening is just for hand use (and it's plastic); so hand tight?

 

[chrismechmaster]

Shimano's own tool for end cap tightening is just for hand use (and it's plastic); so hand tight?

View attachment 85500

Thanks but no this tool is for using for the plastic pre load caps that shimano send with there crank arms

the thread is talking about the alu end caps that Gary.Put a link (they don’t get tightened by that above ) there completely different which is why I was wondering the torque value

cheers

 

[Gary]

2Nm is the specified torque for the plastic shimano preload caps but being a non standard part there isn't a specified correct torque value for the Alu replacements. Chris.
Which is why I gave you the reply I did.
You're over thinking it.
Simply tighten the 10nm hex until the arm is snug on the axle. Going slightly above 2Nm isn't going to damage anything. Just don't go crazy on a long 10mm hex key.

 

[ElectricBiscuit]

I've noticed that when tightening these cranks (I use genuine Shimano cranks on my EP8) that if you nip up one of the pinch bolts, and then the other one - the first bolt will be loose again.

Therefore it's best to torque the two pinch bolts down in turn progressively, a bit like a car cylinder head bolt tightening sequence.

After three iterations on each pinch bolt, gently ramping up each time, you'll have a nice equal torque onto the crankshaft.

This may not relate to the E13 issue, but worth mentioning nevertheless.

 

[Hitorogoshi]

I've noticed that when tightening these cranks (I use genuine Shimano cranks on my EP8) that if you nip up one of the pinch bolts, and then the other one - the first bolt will be loose again.

Therefore it's best to torque the two pinch bolts down in turn progressively, a bit like a car cylinder head bolt tightening sequence.

After three iterations on each pinch bolt, gently ramping up each time, you'll have a nice equal torque onto the crankshaft.

This may not relate to the E13 issue, but worth mentioning nevertheless.

Yup - good tip. I tighten mine to about 10nm then increment up to 13 by 1 on each bolt

 

[chrismechmaster]

Just out of interest how do you guys managed to get a torque wrench on the inside bolt nearest the chain ring ?
I have found this impossible and can only get a standard angled hex on this inside bolt

 

[Spiff]

Just out of interest how do you guys managed to get a torque wrench on the inside bolt nearest the chain ring ?
I have found this impossible and can only get a standard angled hex on this inside bolt

I use an extender, increases the length from wrench to screw. It is an standard accesory for wrench tools

 

[Bigtuna00]

I've noticed that when tightening these cranks (I use genuine Shimano cranks on my EP8) that if you nip up one of the pinch bolts, and then the other one - the first bolt will be loose again.

Therefore it's best to torque the two pinch bolts down in turn progressively, a bit like a car cylinder head bolt tightening sequence.

After three iterations on each pinch bolt, gently ramping up each time, you'll have a nice equal torque onto the crankshaft.

This may not relate to the E13 issue, but worth mentioning nevertheless.

That's literally the way both Shimano and e*thirteen tell you to install them. Great minds and all that...or just RTFM

 

[Bigtuna00]

Just out of interest how do you guys managed to get a torque wrench on the inside bolt nearest the chain ring ?
I have found this impossible and can only get a standard angled hex on this inside bolt

I use a long bit, it came with my torque wrench (at the bottom of the first photo)

 

[AME]

you have obviously never owned a VW Transporter T5. Whilst it is a very reliable van it does have one weakness and that is the drivers side driveshaft. It is in 2 parts. A short stub shaft that fits into the gearbox output and a longer main driveshaft that slides into the stub shaft on splines. Typically at over 100k miles the splines on both the stub shaft and main driveshaft joint wear to the point they slip and you loose all drive!!
The reason is that splines on the stub shaft are made of a softer metal than those that fit into the gearbox and so act as a shear point protecting the gearbox output.

In terms of the driveshaft itself shearing ( as in photos a bove) I raced Minis ( offroad). Broken driveshafts were typically caused not by the amount of power transmitted through them but by the suspension compressing more than the CV joint would allow....at which point the driveshaft would be unable to rotate.............net result in a mini at speed would be a spectacular ass over front roll!!

I have been working on VW and Audis for 25 years plus. The spline itself-its not the problem. Missing grease and lubrication is. Not one T5 has a defective spline without rust at the same time. They screwd up on the shaft seals, not the spline itself.

 

[urastus]

I've noticed that when tightening these cranks (I use genuine Shimano cranks on my EP8) that if you nip up one of the pinch bolts, and then the other one - the first bolt will be loose again.

Therefore it's best to torque the two pinch bolts down in turn progressively, a bit like a car cylinder head bolt tightening sequence.

After three iterations on each pinch bolt, gently ramping up each time, you'll have a nice equal torque onto the crankshaft.

This may not relate to the E13 issue, but worth mentioning nevertheless.

That is the normal technique, or should be, for anything like this. Consider wheel nuts on a car.

 

[kones]

I bought a CANYON Spectral:ON CF 7 in June 2021. It is fitted with Shimano FC-EM600 cranks.
In the first year, the crank on the right-hand side fell off. A Canyon service partner refitted the cranks to the bike. However, it fell off again after 2 rides.
The same service partner fitted the crank again. This time he was probably a bit more precise. The crank remained on the bike for 14 months.
Unfortunately, the crank fell off a third time on steep terrain in December 2023. I fell and injured myself in the process.

 

[RustyIron]

Unfortunately, the crank fell off a third time on steep terrain in December 2023. I

Spindle failure is a flaw in the design of the parts. The crank falling off is more likely a result of shoddy assembly and maintenance. However, it's conceivable that the first time it loosened up, the splines wore as you continued to ride the bike, and now they can't be tightened properly. After repeated failures, you might want to consult someone other than the "Canyon Service Partner."