Shimano Battery Life Poll

[guika]

I do have 8035. I am storing not more than 3 days in 100% as you check my stat.
Never the less this is not the main point.

The point here is that Saturday it was 9 cycle and 100% and Sunday it was 10cycle and 90%.
That is well ... excluding the chemistry and physics for sure. In one charge it can not degrade 10%...

I do make Radio Controlled car hobby, and there we use Lipo as well. Those batteries are much much simplier Lipo-s than ebike , after 4 years and hundreds cycles I am still able to put ~6300mah into 5400mah battery... which if you consider losses heat etc, still shows like a brand new one.

The first thing what I have learned there is to charge always slow as possible and do cell balancing. Store in 70% and in the fridge. (somebody wrote that before) okay they are smaller ...

What I do not understand here, that why we dont have 70% charge up option. Like in RC in my charger I do have storeing option.
So the charger charge it up to 70% slow, or its discharge it to 70% slow. and than it switch off.
Also there is cell balancing option ,where each cell is charged individually to reach ~3.8v

Today I made a ride, and also I made an experiement. I did a big boost up climbing, and I have measured the battery and the engine as well.
I did not measured high temperature at all... both of them were 26Celcius, where outside was 12C.

I dont think it is related to heat, also I dont think it is related to charger, due than other types would suffer too with the same type.
As I read this thread through most of you own faster charger, I do have slow charger, and all of us have 90% after 10 cycle with the type 8035...

Again mine dropped 10% in one day.

Gents this is smelly to me from Shimano...

 

[OldGoatMTB]

By "Capacity" I assume you mean health (on the ST Unlocker app), not the current state of charge.
Mine is 100% after 23 cycles. Currently charged si 94%. I normally only charge to 80-90% but was planning to ride today so let it charge a little extra. EC-E6000 charger. 504wh battery, purchased in March, 2020.

 

[guika]

By "Capacity" I assume you mean health (on the ST Unlocker app), not the current state of charge.
Mine is 100% after 23 cycles. Currently charged si 94%. I normally only charge to 80-90% but was planning to ride today so let it charge a little extra. EC-E6000 charger. 504wh battery, purchased in March, 2020.

Maybe you hit the nail... we can fully charge straight only before ride... It is better if use it between 30-90.
Capa I meant "health" from Unlocker yes...

I can imagine two thing :

1. Shimano made a bug and it is smelly
2. After 10 cycle it makes a measurement and classify the battery.

Otherwise your use case can not fit..

I charged up to 77% and I will try to do what you do to keep between, and let see after some cycles.

 

[OldGoatMTB]

Most of my rides are under 10 mi, so if I charge to 80 or 90% I can easily get two or three rides in. It's easier, not charging every time, and if it extends the life of the battery that's a bonus!

 

[RickBullotta]

Which battery do you have? The issues seen seem to be limited to the 8035 internal battery.

I have had the issues with two separate E8010 batteries.

 

[RickBullotta]

Shimano refused to replace the battery, even though it showed only 87% remaining capacity after 22 full charge cycles. Might be time for a class action lawsuit soon...

 

[jimbob]

Shimano refused to replace the battery, even though it showed only 87% remaining capacity after 22 full charge cycles. Might be time for a class action lawsuit soon...

Can you do those in the UK?

I was going to wait until mine dropped to 80% or so and then try the claim. Given that it seems the new one will do the same I'm not in a massive hurry!

 

[guika]

Hi Gents, I would like to ask a small favor from those , who have 8035 battery and NO DEGRADATION with more than 10 cycles !
Could you please check with your dealer readout the FW version of the battery ?

Mine has been read out today by my dealer&service, and I have catched this part that battery has a FW inside.
If you check that with Etube app or STunlocker , than this info is hidden. Ergo you can not upgrade the fw on the battery by yourself.

That made my theory that i believe there is a bug in the Battery Management System (BMS) and if we can find a battery which has 100% health and 10 or more cycles and higher FW version. Than that is it.

Certainly ,how you store and charge and use your battery will affect the lifetime.
However I trully beileve that I checked mine on 9th cycle and said 100% and when it hit 10th cycle than it dropped 90% can not be coincident. There was nothing in between like 98%, or 97% etc... immediatelly 10% out. That is why I do have this theory.

With your kind help, I think we can have some understanding and might be a root cause here. That's why I am counting on the support of this nice community !

Of course mine has been offcially claimed at Shimano as well by my dealer. I will feed you back about the answer.

Thanks again !

 

[jimbob]

I'm not sure anyone has had an E8035 battery not degrade in this way?

It's been a while since I've fully read the thread, but from memory everyone has had similar issues with it, and similar degradation rate vs cycles.

I'm about to hit 30 cycles on mine, so will see if it drops from 87% to 85% as expected.

 

[guika]

I'm not sure anyone has had an E8035 battery not degrade in this way?

It's been a while since I've fully read the thread, but from memory everyone has had similar issues with it, and similar degradation rate vs cycles.

I'm about to hit 30 cycles on mine, so will see if it drops from 87% to 85% as expected.

Do you know the fw of your battery ? Same 1.0.0.0?

 

[jimbob]

Do you know the fw of your battery ? Same 1.0.0.0?

I'm not sure I'm afraid. As you say, you cant get the fw version out using stunlocker etc.

The bike is about 4months old, so would guess the battery is ~6months old. If yours is younger, I would guess that they are the same fw given yours is version 1.0.0.

 

[RickBullotta]

I'm not sure I'm afraid. As you say, you cant get the fw version out using stunlocker etc.

The bike is about 4months old, so would guess the battery is ~6months old. If yours is younger, I would guess that they are the same fw given yours is version 1.0.0.

Or maybe batteries don't have firmware, so Stunlocker just uses 1.0.0.0...

@vadII - any insights on this?

 

[Spiff]

Or maybe batteries don't have firmware, so Stunlocker just uses 1.0.0.0...

@vadII - any insights on this?

Batteries probably do have FW, but it has never been updated, as it can be seen in the Shimano FW Update listing:

FIRMWARE UPDATES | E-TUBE PROJECT | E-TUBE | E-TUBE PROJECT-EU

The published information on the E-TUBE PROJECT firmware (release notes) is provided below. Please see the latest firmware update information.

bike.shimano.com

 

[jimbob]

Or maybe batteries don't have firmware, so Stunlocker just uses 1.0.0.0...

@vadII - any insights on this?

I would expect them to have some form of firmware, but may not be possible to update once it leaves the factory. To do so would add extra complexity for what may have been perceived as no gain.

Which is why I find it so strange all the batteries are reporting what appears to be a consistent degradation. It points to a firmware fault, but would surely have been picked up in testing? That said, the latest Etube app may suggest otherwise..!

There are a number of people who seem to have their batteries replaced on here. You would expect shimano to have investigated these, and if was due to firmware implement an update to newly produced units. That said, that takes time, and so any updated units may not have trickled through yet.

All speculation unfortunately.

 

[guika]

Or maybe batteries don't have firmware, so Stunlocker just uses 1.0.0.0...

@vadII - any insights on this?

STunlocker does not see the FW. Only Shimano cable version can read that out. As you see in my post yes they do have FW inside. Can be seen and has been validated by the factory shimano device.

 

[guika]

IMO if we can somehow prove that , it can help to others to make their warranty claims. To be honest it is very rare that people are reading these info out, or they can really experience this degradation. I am sure 80% of the riders have no info about that. Thats why I would like to ask your help on that, if I am right we all winning. Worst to try right?

 

[guika]

I'm not sure I'm afraid. As you say, you cant get the fw version out using stunlocker etc.

The bike is about 4months old, so would guess the battery is ~6months old. If yours is younger, I would guess that they are the same fw given yours is version 1.0.0.

Hi! Mine bike fork has been produced in 2019. The entire bike was produced in 2020 summer. Could be that the battery is older maybe also 2019. I did not have any clue to track that back...

 

[electricbogaloo]

STunlocker does not see the FW. Only Shimano cable version can read that out. As you see in my post yes they do have FW inside. Can be seen and has been validated by the factory shimano device.

The tablet version of etube does it read out too:

 

[guika]

The tablet version of etube does it read out too:

View attachment 44626

Vielen Dank ! I know that must be difference here. No we have a proof ! Thanks

 

[RickBullotta]

Vielen Dank ! I know that must be difference here. No we have a proof ! Thanks

So, I checked mine, and I actually have firmware 3.0.0.0, but as you can see, I have serious battery degradation...so apparently the firmware doesn't address the issue (whether an actual battery issue or a software issue)

 

[guika]

So, I checked mine, and I actually have firmware 3.0.0.0, but as you can see, I have serious battery degradation...so apparently the firmware doesn't address the issue (whether an actual battery issue or a software issue)

View attachment 44629

Well that is definatelly hard to proove. This game has 3 main players inside.
1. Firmware ( At least with the previous post and the several post below prooves that firmware plays a part )
2. Usage, Circumstances ( It is also true that , it depends how we use , what we do how we charge etc )
3. Battery component ( Differences between modell 8010,8035 etc.. tehrefore the used component inside the battery )

Out of these 3 factors we get the lifetime.

Again, that mine was 100% on cycle 9 and on cycle 10 it turned immediatelly 90% talks to me a SW issue.
Would be good to know how was your during the cycles, in order to see that it has influence or not. Something was related to other factors.

At least I am happy, that I know that there are differences between Shimano batteries and their durability, and also now I know taht there are also diference in these firmwares.

Due that this FW we can not upgrade , opens the channel that if we have an issue with the software, than only Shimano can solve it.

 

[electricbogaloo]

There is also a cell lottery factor involved. No cell will deliver exactly the same performance over time.

But the decisive factor would be the user. Meaning if the battery gets used heavily (heavy rider with trail/boost every ride till its empty) or how it is stored/charged. Temperature is also a big factor. So there are many variables.

 

[RickBullotta]

There is also a cell lottery factor involved. No cell will deliver exactly the same performance over time.

But the decisive factor would be the user. Meaning if the battery gets used heavily (heavy rider with trail/boost every ride till its empty) or how it is stored/charged. Temperature is also a big factor. So there are many variables.

In my case, based on most recent rides, probably 70% eco, 30% trail, almost never boost. Only ridden until empty once in the entire time I've owned it. Average discharge is 50-60%. Always recharge the next day. Have used both fast and slow chargers.

 

[jimbob]

There is also a cell lottery factor involved. No cell will deliver exactly the same performance over time.

But the decisive factor would be the user. Meaning if the battery gets used heavily (heavy rider with trail/boost every ride till its empty) or how it is stored/charged. Temperature is also a big factor. So there are many variables.

Very true, but then you would expect to see a range of degradation vs cycles. For the 8035 at least, it always appears to be 90% at 10 cycles, 87% at 20 and 85% at 30. I don't think anyone in this thread has seen anything different? For the 8035 battery that is.

There could well be 2 issues; the batteries are degrading, and that's what we are noticing in performance, but it is not being reported correctly hence the consistent results seen.

I did email Madison with some questions on this, but never got a response. To be expected I guess.

 

[jimbob]

Just to add, I did want to run some discharge tests on the battery to prove one way or the other, but the battery doesn't output unless commanded to by the system, so not able to unfortunately.

The other option might be to measure the power the battery takes to charge from empty, but mine has almost 30 cycles now and I don't tend to run it empty.

I am looking to get a second battery, so could do it then, but won't be for a few months.

 

[guika]

Well i dont think that this is OK and its normal. I have just seen a post from a specialized 26 cycles and 100%.

degradation is normal and comes with life , thats ok. For sure with these experienced statistics we are far away that 1000 what shimano advertise. Bosch and specialized are much closer in this case.

 

[Husky430]

Not sure if this thread is about ALL Shimano batteries or just the 8035, I downloaded ST-unlocker yesterday to check mine after reading this and becoming curious.
I've got the 8010 battery and the bike is a 2019 model, so the battery is at least 2 years old. It said the health was 95% and had 43 cycles/chargers(?). So I'm guessing that it doesn't count every recharge as a cycle as I only part charge it sometimes to a guesstimate of around 60/70% of full charge? I only finish to fully charged the night before a big ride. And in the 18 months I've had the bike, I would have charged it a lot more than 43 times.
The 'Better Half' has the same motor and battery as mine, though only has 1/10th of the mileage at 250km and her battery reads 99% and 6 cycles. Again, I've charged it more than 6 times. Hope all of this is of some help

 

[guika]

Not sure if this thread is about ALL Shimano batteries or just the 8035, I downloaded ST-unlocker yesterday to check mine after reading this and becoming curious.
I've got the 8010 battery and the bike is a 2019 model, so the battery is at least 2 years old. It said the health was 95% and had 43 cycles/chargers(?). So I'm guessing that it doesn't count every recharge as a cycle as I only part charge it sometimes to a guesstimate of around 60/70% of full charge? I only finish to fully charged the night before a big ride. And in the 18 months I've had the bike, I would have charged it a lot more than 43 times.
The 'Better Half' has the same motor and battery as mine, though only has 1/10th of the mileage at 250km and her battery reads 99% and 6 cycles. Again, I've charged it more than 6 times. Hope all of this is of some help

Hi ! 1 cycle = 0-100% charge or 3 times 33% charge. It measures how much power has been delivered to the battery and if thatvreach the capacity than it counts as a cycle. Personally I would be curious on your battery FW version. You can read that out with Shimano dealer or with Etube installed on Tablet.

 

[jimbob]

Just hit the 30 cycle point tonight, and as expected it's now showing 85% remaining capacity.

 

[Husky430]

My E-tube is on my iphone and I also have ST-unlocker on the same phone, do either of those apps show you the battery firmware? Checked it after a half charge yesterday and it had gone up to 44 times and still at 95% on my battery.