Setup questions!

[Byker]

Hey guys. I’m riding a Trek Rail. Large frame. I’m 6’1” with shorter legs and a longer torso.

I feel like I’m too far over the front of the bike. Down hills don’t feel great because my neutral position feels too far forward over the front wheel.

I thought a longer stem might help but it appears that a longer stem actually has the opposite affect by moving your weight forward? I’ve seen people recommend shorter stems when this happens but then my reach would be too short and I’d be cramped. Should I leave the stem as is and get taller bars?

 

[mr wilson]

Are you sitting or standing when you feel too far forward?

 

[Byker]

Are you sitting or standing when you feel too far forward?

Standing. A comfortable neutral position puts me over the front. I have to really concentrate on keeping the weight back.

 

[Gary]

short legs and a long upper body/arms would actually put your centre of mass further over the rear, not the front while standing up.

how short legs are we actually talking here?

 

[Byker]

short legs and a long upper body/arms would actually put your centre of mass further over the rear, not the front while standing up.

how short legs are we actually talking here?

I wear 32” inseam pants, real inseam more like 34”. Maybe it’s a technique thing, I don’t know. But yea, just feels really easy for my shoulders to get in front of the bars.

Maybe I should be in the 21.5 frame and not 19.5. I’m right in between both sizes.

 

[KeithR]

I wear 32” inseam pants, real inseam more like 34”. Maybe it’s a technique thing, I don’t know. But yea, just feels really easy for my shoulders to get in front of the bars.

Maybe I should be in the 21.5 frame and not 19.5. I’m right in between both sizes.

Rule of thumb - unless you like the alternative (some do) - is to go for the bigger frame if you're in between frame sizes.

 

[bluewater87]

I think you’d be better suited to the xl frames reach numbers.
I rode a large rail and it felt too short for my 6’2”, 0 ape index body.

 

[Gary]

But yea, just feels really easy for my shoulders to get in front of the bars.

and what's wrong with that? There are times on a bike where you need your shoulders above the bars to weight the front wheel.

Contrary to Keith's advice above. There is no rule of thumb. Sizing is down to rider preference and riding style.

what was your previous bike? and what size/reach was it?

 

[Byker]

and what's wrong with that? There are times on a bike where you need your shoulders above the bars to weight the front wheel.

Contrary to Keith's advice above. There is no rule of thumb. Sizing is down to rider preference and riding style.

what was your previous bike? and what size/reach was it?

it’s my first mountain bike. Come from road riding where I’m typically a 58. Just took a couple pics for reference that I’ll post here in a minute.

 

[Gary]

it’s my first mountain bike. Come from road riding where I’m typically a 58. Just took a couple pics for reference that I’ll post here in a minute.

I wouldn't bother taking pics riding an mtb is a completely different position than a roadbike (I ride both - and always have).
If you've never ridden mtb before it's almost definitely a technique and positioning issue

I'm 5'11" with a 33" inseam and most comfortable 56cm roadbikes, but small or medium mtbs

 

[flash]

Watch this..

"Better Riding Position In 1 Day - How To Find Balance - YouTube"

and this

"How To Set Up Your First Full Suspension Mountain Bike In Just 30 Minutes | Bike Set Up Basics - YouTube"

Gordon

 

[Byker]

Couple pics attached standing and sitting. I look even bigger on the bike then how I fell and yea I look fat as hell lol because I am.

 

[Mikerb]

Both sitting and standing you have straight arms. Bend the elbows outwards. Standing position you need to bend your legs a little more...in fact more like the angle when are seated, arch your back which will bring your ass and to a degree your shoulders back on the bike more. If you are standing on the bike the saddle should be slammed out of the way. Overall you look very stiff...relax your shoulders, bend your back. The bike does look small but no reason why you cannot ride it well and be really able to throw it about.
If you still cannot get comfortable maybe try some riser bars.

 

[Gary]

For an mtb riding position the position you're in in both your pics is pretty awful.
Watch the video @flash posted above. it explains "why" your position is so poor really well. and what positions you should be aiming for. The skills Kyle shows in the video are way above your level but using his girlfriend's input brings it down a few levels nicely.
Wearing flip flops is doing you absolutely no favours BTW
In your pics you've adopted a position to hold your belly comfortably with your arms locked out rather than any sort of useful riding position for mtb. I'm guessing your core isn't very strong?

Go out and "play" on your bike. doing stuff like actively popping about, pumping, hopping and learning to lift the wheels etc.. this will help you be much looser, raise your confidence and become more dynamic on the bike. same with cornering, get used to moving around the bike a lot more than you need to on the road bike. Don't sweat it though.

TBF the vast majority of Emtb riders I see exibit pretty awful riding form and positioning and generally just look pretty awful/awkward while riding with not enough body input and poor positioning. Of all the emtbs I saw out this weekend this was definitely the common denominator.

 

[Byker]

I wasn’t really trying to show a mtb position, rather my size on the bike I guess. I should have gotten in a more riding position.

I have dirt bike and motocross experience so I know about bent elbows and all that. That video is very helpful. I’ll be mindful of those points next time I’m out.

 

[Hobo Mikey]

That dark hat is not doing you any favours, must be difficult to see where your going. ? ?

 

[Mteam]

In addition to the points above - Getting some higher rise bars will help a little, but it kind of looks like you're on the wrong size bike - should probably be on the next size up I reckon. I'm 5 foot 10 and I would have bought a large trek rail, so someone of 6 foot 1 should probably be on XL - unless they have a reason for wanting a relatively small frame.

 

[flash]

1. To me your levers are waaaaay to flat. That forces your elbows in and down and weight onto the outside of your hands. Roll those levers down to a position where your wrist isn't bent (standing position). It'll allow you to move your elbows out and change the pressure points on your hands. Way more comfortable.

2. Good shoes with stiff soles and keep that front heel down. It'll move your weight back on the bike. Your knee should be a bit more bent in the standing position.

3. Consider changing bars. I'm now on a 38mm riser bar with a 6 degree sweep and that's ideal for my bike and me. Also check your bar width. Wider bars move your weight forward. About the width you do a push up is a good starting point. Not too thin though as you'll reduce your control of the bike. If you're getting below 750-760mm you'll end up compromising handling too much. I trimmed my bars to 770mm and that's moved me back a bit to a more neutral position. You can also roll your bars forward and back to adjust your position. GMBN Tech does a great video on cockpit set up you should watch. Getting your cockpit right will completely transform the way your bike feels and make getting into a good riding position much easier.

4. Move your seat. As you roll your bars you can move your seat to get more or less effective reach. It won't change the weight on your hands much but it will affect your position on the bike when climbing seated and how big the bike feels. Forward if the front wheel lifts. Back if you cant lift the front wheel. You look too far forward on your bike to me. I'd move the seat back a bit. You'll add some reach to the bike that way.

5. Crank length. Not an obvious one but longer cranks mean a lower saddle height. Not too long though. Most bikes already come with pretty long cranks (170-175mm) but if your bike was specced with 160-165's you could try a longer crank arm set.

6. Suspension set up. Make sure your sag is set properly on both front and rear. You might add a bit of sag to the rear and less to the front (say 30%R and 20%F) but stay within the basic guidelines and adjust if your bottoming out too much.

Really you just need to ride and adjust. Do one thing at a time so you can be analytical about it. Start with your cockpit and work backwards.

That's for starters.

Gordon

 

[Gary]

His lever angle isn't necessarily too flat. Plenty better riders than you ride with their levers flatter than that.

You don't need particularly stiff soled shoes to ride on flat pedals well at all. In fact too stiff and you lose feel.

It's a while since I've read so much rubbish written about bar width. What suits each rider is simply personal preference rather than some stupid formula involving pushups found on the onterwebz.

Moving your saddle doesn't affect "reach" at all. Set yous saddle for comfortable efficient seated pedalling position just as you would on a road bike. It really doesn't matter how far your arse is from your bars. We have elbows to fine tune the distance from your torso to your grips.

Choose crank length based on your leg length and pedalling preference (unless of course you feel the need to go super short to allow you to pedal straight at stuff like a goon.)

I definitely agree about just needing to ride more though. Lots more.

 

[stiv674]

TBF the vast majority of Emtb riders I see exibit pretty awful riding form and positioning and generally just look pretty awful/awkward while riding with not enough body input and poor positioning. Of all the emtbs I saw out this weekend this was definitely the common denominator.

So it was you I saw shaking his head at me on Saturday then

 

[B1rdie]

Considering the pose on your pics, Yiengar would say: try to turn the hips clockwise, like trying to squeeze the butt an throw the pelvis frontwards. As said before this demands core strengh but also streched lower back.
By doing this you would see the shoulders move back and the elbows be bent at the same time. Strengh will develope with practice.
Bars with more rise will help more than a bigger frame in my opinion. It demands less strengh and strech to stay put on a medium frame than on a large one to me.

 

[Gary]

So it was you I saw shaking his head at me on Saturday then

Not me Cuz. Saturday I was a roadbike ride wiv ma Julie.
Sunday we were at Glentress Geriatric Family Park on normal bikes. Folk were shaking their heads and tutting at me for not wearing a helmet.. One guy even plucked up the courage to comment on it... Some shit about me risking my life or something else equally ridiculous.

 

[Forever Wild]

Hey guys. I’m riding a Trek Rail. Large frame. I’m 6’1” with shorter legs and a longer torso.

I feel like I’m too far over the front of the bike. Down hills don’t feel great because my neutral position feels too far forward over the front wheel.

I thought a longer stem might help but it appears that a longer stem actually has the opposite affect by moving your weight forward? I’ve seen people recommend shorter stems when this happens but then my reach would be too short and I’d be cramped. Should I leave the stem as is and get taller bars?

I had the same problem with my 19.5 frame on my Trek Powerfly. I installed a renthal carbon fatbar with a 40mm rise. It helped immensely. I’m 6’2”.

 

[stiv674]

Not me Cuz. Saturday I was put a roadbike ride wiv ma Julie.
Sunday we were at Glentress Geriatric Family Park on normal bikes. Folk were shaking their heads and tutting at me for not wearing a helmet.. One guy even plucked up the courage to comment on it... Some shit about me risking my life or something else equally ridiculous.

Oh, just someone who looked like you then... ?

Well there is a lot of knowledge in that head of yours, where else would we get any decent advice from if you damaged it?

 

[Byker]

I appreciate your help guys. I regret not getting in a proper position for those pics now haha. I don’t ride with straight arms. Don’t know how you’d even do that?? Well, seated you could I guess pretty easy.

I’m going to put a 60mm stem on and 30mm rise carbon Renthals. Has a 50mm stem now and might give me a little more room without messing handling up too much.

 

[Gary]

there is a lot of knowledge in that head of yours, where else would we get any decent advice from if you damaged it?

TBF multiple head injuries and concussions probably contributed more than you might think to my confidence and and honest no holds barred delivery of any knowledge I'm still able to retain. ?

 

[High Rock Ruti]

Hey guys. I’m riding a Trek Rail. Large frame. I’m 6’1” with shorter legs and a longer torso.

I feel like I’m too far over the front of the bike. Down hills don’t feel great because my neutral position feels too far forward over the front wheel.

I thought a longer stem might help but it appears that a longer stem actually has the opposite affect by moving your weight forward? I’ve seen people recommend shorter stems when this happens but then my reach would be too short and I’d be cramped. Should I leave the stem as is and get taller bars?

High Rock Ruti

Jordie Cortes of Fox suspension says the number one posistion mistake of down hill racers is weight too far back, my understanding (primitive) is eyes over the bars and stem is the right placement, I'm in between sizes XL would go fast, but suffer from agility got Rail 9.8 large, when seated I feel cramped tending slide back, I've rolled the bars forward and slid the seat back I've never tried a longer stem, but you've inspired me. The Rail is a scary bike the faster you go the better it likes it, and the less comfortable I feel. I've never crashed above 16 mph but I've gone 28 mph, the thought of golfing sounds more appealing all the time.

I like shorter chainstay bikes I've got an Orbea and Pivot ebikes that are easier to ride but I'm suspicious that it may be the Fox suspension is part of the feel. Have not been able to get the Rockshox to be as plush.

Warm Regards

Ruti

 

[Byker]

Hey Ruti, I was able to get a Bontrager Line stem in 60mm, unfortunately the Line Pro isn’t available and Trek isn’t even letting you order them right now. Was able to get the Bontrager Line Pro Carbon bars though that have a 27.5mm rise compared to the stock 15mm rise bars in mine. So hoping the longer stem and higher bars will help a bit.

 

[Konanige]

I think part of the problem is how you ride, the Rail is a modern bike with modern geometry, nothing like a road bike. The slacker head angle means you have to ride in a more committed attack position in order to keep the front tyre gripping, and that includes going down steep descents, its an issue that a lot of riders new to the sport are experiencing, modern geometry doesn't do a lot for your confidence. Ass over the back went out with 70 degree headtubes. Keep at it and you'll get the hang of it, Ive just bought a super long bike with a 62 degree head angle and blimey it's gonna take some getting used to!!!