Suspension setup.

[Tim29]

The reason i asked wasn’t to hint for people’s setups, but rather to hear what people do. I’ve gone out with a group of riders as local shuttle guy brings groups of riders up to the trail and i watch these novice to lower intermediate riders struggle on the trail. They have a very similar impression to some of the comments made. The bike is so much better then my skill why bother.
In past 5 months i have let a couple dozen of them take a run on my bike and everyone of them asked how to get this done to my bike! Not one didn’t notice the difference.
So that’s the reason i asked to see if people all over the globe are doing this same theory or are people actually spending time setting up there bikes to have the best ride exp.
for me i don’t really enjoy doing the work at all. I enjoy the quality and confidence in the bike when I’m done and i feel comfortable in my bike and there for i can be more relaxed when i ride and planted when I’m feeling a bit spunky and want to challenge the trail at speed. I’m not a kid anymore and i still enjoy going fast, but i also have wadded enough in my life to know going fast on less then perfectly setup bike is going to increase my chances of hitting the ground hard substantially.
I come from the sport of moto, and in your Manuel they give you step by step instructions ilistrations on how to setup the bike as well as trouble shoot or bracket your suspension. It’s very detailed.
But in the bicycle world so far every bike i have purchased has come with nothing in owners Manuel on where and what the bike was designed to be setup at. Engineers spent hundreds of hours developing and designing these bikes and they don’t even come with sag recommendations to put the bike in it’s designed geometry.
To me this seems crazy.

 

[MattyB]

@Tim29 I love that you are so passionate and knowledgeable about suspension but to be honest most of of us do very well on the standard specced equipment and I doubt many of us, my self included would ever notice the difference the type of work you are talking about would actually make to us. I love fettling my bike and trying to get the best out of it, I too am passionate about my hobby but at the end of the day it's just that.

There are one or two on here who talk a good ride and a few I'm sure are pretty damn hot but in the main most of us own bikes way more capable than we are riders, It's great that you have this knowledge and are willing to share but I doubt there are more than handful who have a real scooby of what you're on about.

+1. I do take the time to carefully set up my shocks and fork initially and tune for conditions, but there is no way a rider of my modest ability has the skills needed to execute the sort of work you are talking about. Besides, for most of us it’s a hobby not a job! Half the people I know don’t even service their suspension or pay to have it done for them, so they are never going to be taking on the stuff you are talking about.

 

[Tim29]

Ok maybe i approaches his wrong. As some have made comments to who cares what a random guy runs for setup.

Let’s see if i can approach this in a different way.
How many people have found the information available to setup there brand of bike to best work for there rider weight. And how to do basic setup tips to there brand bike that helps them determine if there going the right direction.
I’m not trying to get into a pissing match or upset anyone. I’m simply asking what people do and how they do it. I prob got to detailed and confused people on what the direction of this post was intend for

 

[Tim29]

Basically what I’m trying to do is figure out where the limits should be, how far or indebt should this be for the average bike consumer. Or should i not waste my time and just realize no one will use this and the bikes should continue to be sold as is and rely on the knowledge of all different skilled bike shops ?

 

[Gary]

I come from the sport of moto, and in your Manuel they give you step by step instructions ilistrations on how to setup the bike as well as trouble shoot or bracket your suspension. It’s very detailed.

But in the bicycle world so far every bike i have purchased has come with nothing in owners Manuel on where and what the bike was designed to be setup at.

Boxed Rockshox forks do have fairly comprehensive manuals including a set-up guide section.
Pretty sure most RS equipped complete bikes come with one here. (couldn't say if Fox etc. are the same)
preferred sag and progressiveness is personal and choosing how you prefer your spring to behave depends hugely on the individual, where and how they ride. Similarly with damping. I probably run less fork sag than you... I certainly run less than most "recommendations" I read either online or in a manual. Do you honestly think this makes your set-up more "right" than mine?

As for folk you meet on the trail. I've politely mentioned to strangers that their fork is on backwards and rectified the problem for them there and then at the tril side.
Most common set-up mistake I see on £3k+ mountainbikes is folk struggling to jump at the jump park with less than 20psi in their super sticky tyres rather than badly set-up suspension But TBH I notice far more problems with peoples actual riding skill than I ever do with their suspension set-up. so maybe there is something in the whole "bike's way more capable than me" actually has some truth, even if badly set up. I've known some incredible riders who didn't really have a clue about suspension internals.

 

[Gary]

I’m not trying to get into a pissing match or upset anyone.

Me neither. I've been a suspension geek for decades. but like I said. a lot of what I know is irrelivent to most other forum users. Especially here. No disrespect meant to Emtb users. it's just a fact.

Oh... and No. pressure/spring rate guides on forks and in their manuals are very rarely what I'd run (I usually run higher rate/pressure). But they are just a guide for the average owner and as such are probably not all that far off finding a decent starting point.

 

[eFat]

Basically what I’m trying to do is figure out where the limits should be, how far or indebt should this be for the average bike consumer.

I would think that 99% of users won't mess with the internal parts.

What suspension?

 

[Tim29]

Ok i can see this was 100% none productive and gained me no market research.
Thanks for responding.
Gary, you ride a different brand geometry bike then me so your sag settings as well as mine are erelivant so there was no mention of who is right or who is wrong.
But what you have failed to see is every bike has a designed geometry, and the factory sets them up in a particular way. This is your base settings. Now a more experienced rider can tailer those setting to there liking but the average person should set them up to a factory spec so at least they can ride the bike as the engineers designed it.
As you progress with bikes and knowledge you can tailer those setting to improve where you feel the bike is lacking. But like all of us humans, we all learned to crawl before we learned to walk.
I was trying to find where do i start??
At a crawl or just start with walking!

 

[Tim29]

I would think that 99% of users won't mess with the internal parts.

What suspension?

Efat, would you change a token with detailed instructions?

 

[Doomanic]

@Tim29 I've serviced forks, added tokens to forks and bands to shocks, fitted an IVA kit to Manitou forks, made my own coil conversion for RST Hi-5s back when I was a CNC programmer but I wouldn't know where to start with shim stacks. I could do the work but wouldn't have the foggiest idea what work was actually required other than harder or softer, certainly not how much difference was needed.

Do you honestly think this makes your set-up more "right" than mine?

Hey, he's just being honest...

 

[eFat]

Efat, would you change a token with detailed instructions?

Apart from building a wheel I do everything on my bikes so yes I would. But the question is more "Would I know I need to change a token?".

 

[Gary]

Gary, you ride a different brand geometry bike then me so your sag settings as well as mine are erelivant so there was no mention of who is right or who is wrong.

I have 11 bikes. Many of my bikes have modified geometry one way or another. This is entirely MY choice. My point was not who's right or wrong. (we're both right BTW) your optimum suspension setting is YOURS not mine. I'm fairly confident it wouldn't be even if we both had exactly the same bike.

But what you have failed to see is every bike has a designed geometry, and the factory sets them up in a particular way. This is your base settings. Now a more experienced rider can tailer those setting to there liking but the average person should set them up to a factory spec so at least they can ride the bike as the engineers designed it.

I haven't failed to see this at all.
All mountainbikes are designed to accomodate a wide range of riders (size, weight, experience, style, skill). There is no FACTORY SET UP. there is a base set-up. and the suspension kinematics should have been optimised for use with a particular shock but that's it. Do you honestly think a suspension engineer designed a FACTORY suspension setting optimumly spec'd for 46yr old slightly overweight father of two Nigel from Croydon? or to put it another way do you think every YT Tues owner should set their suspension up the same as Aaron Gwin's?
There is no "should" it's entirely up to the owner how they set up their bike. and so it should be.

 

[Japuserid]

I would think that 99% of users won't mess with the internal parts.

What suspension?

That's just nut's Love it brilliant vid, thanks for sharing

 

[Tim29]

Every bike needs a base for the particular rider height and weight.
And i believe they need a guide to help them understand how to obtain the base settings the bike was designed to be at, as well as a base that will guide a new or less exp bike user on how these setting change the bike characteristics.
Where i got off base was stating that hundreds of different bikes come with the same basic shock and valving but they have completely different linkage ratios.
But to be honest Gary i would appreciate if you please stop replying as your not adding any useful information just leading the thread away from its intention and that’s not helping me it’s a continuous contradiction and i would appreciate it if you could just stop unless your going to add soming useful.
Thank you.

 

[Al Boneta]

There been some good answers but no one is saying what here tweaking.
Do any of you take the suspension apart and actually make a different setting then what came with the bike??
Example i had my bulls forks apart almost 20times changing the internal, piston, valve code and changed yari Internal to a Pike internal so i get a closed chamber dampener with a bladder. Then made several different bladder rings to change the expansion rate of the bladder as the fork was still cavitation on hard hits. Making these changes i went from 3-1/2 tokens to 1-1/2 tokens and have same amount of brake dive and travel usage but lost that harsh air spring spike of high token counts.

For most of the riders on here the stock suspension has more than enough adjustment to suit their needs.
If they need something outside the stock parameters, most them will take it to an “expert” to have it tweaked.
I’ve had my suspension tuned by PUSH over the years and one thing I’ve noticed with the current level of suspension is that there isn’t as noticeable a difference as there was 10 years ago. For me personally, since I jump from my 20” BMX bike to my DJ to my Emtb to rigid single speed gravel bike, these changes aren’t really worth the time or expense.
I hang on to most of my mountain bikes for 6-9 months at the most, so 99% of the time the guy who buys it will weigh less or have a different riding style than me and hate all of the changes I’ve made that he now has to undo.
I would start a thread showing the folks on here, what all of this could mean to improving their suspension setups.
Walk them through their ABCs first and then move them on to advanced calculus.
Call it Tim’s Suspension Tips or something.

 

[Dax]

It would be definitely useful to have some guidance on how to set up suspension, I don't think most people would want to get their hands oily and start servicing or tuning suspension themselves.

 

[Gary]

Every bike needs a base for the particular rider height and weight.

You're massively wrong.

Something useful:
Enjoy. But pay attn to the subtitles from 1min to 1:30 (Yes. it's an extreme example but hopefully you get my point)
I will respect your wishes and leave you to your thread. But please open your mind a little.

 

[Tim29]

You're massively wrong.

Something useful:
Enjoy. But pay attn to the subtitles from 1min to 1:30 (Yes. it's an extreme example but hopefully you get my point)
I will respect your wishes and leave you to your thread. But please open your mind a little.

Thanks for the tip i deff try to be more open minded.

 

[Al Boneta]

Before this gets nasty. Scratch that, nastier. There are way too many variables on this subject for there to be any one specific correct answer.

 

[Tim29]

Al, i think what’s happening here is i been to general in some areas and over complicated in others.
Maybe this will help clear the air and we start over.
Think of purchasing a new bike, and these instructions only give you guidelines for this very make and model bike you purchased.
There not general setting for every bike.
So everything in this information on how to setup is 100% pertaining to the make and model you are sitting on as this info is part of your purchase package literature.
How detailed would you read and how far would you be willing to go in setting up your bike??

 

[Doomanic]

I'm not really sure what you are trying to achieve here.

My Spesh Camber (2011) came with a CD with RS shock and fork setting guidelines. My Nukeproof (2016) came with the RS shock and Manitou fork manuals. My Trek (2017) came with an owner's manual with RS shock and fork setting guidelines. In all cases, the guides covered air pressure and damping settings. Unless riders are prepared to get into changing oil viscosity and shim stacks, what more is needed?

 

[Japuserid]

Al, i think what’s happening here is i been to general in some areas and over complicated in others.
Maybe this will help clear the air and we start over.
Think of purchasing a new bike, and these instructions only give you guidelines for this very make and model bike you purchased.
There not general setting for every bike.
So everything in this information on how to setup is 100% pertaining to the make and model you are sitting on as this info is part of your purchase package literature.
How detailed would you read and how far would you be willing to go in setting up your bike??

Tim perhaps it would be easier if you simply tell us what "you think" we should be doing?

Perhaps you could create a setup guide for your own bike, if it has to be bike specific, and for me therein lies the problem, I can't see how it can be bike specific, surely the varied nature of use dictates that it has to be generic.

 

[Tim29]

Tim perhaps it would be easier if you simply tell us what "you think" we should be doing?

Perhaps you could create a setup guide for your own bike, if it has to be bike specific, and for me therein lies the problem, I can't see how it can be bike specific, surely the varied nature of use dictates that it has to be generic.

Ok, so all i am asking is this.
As a consumer, how detailed would any and all of you like to see come in your owners Manuel for your new bike when you purchase one. I am not asking for anyone’s setup info.
Or how younsetup your own bikes.
Just simply asking at what detail would the average consumer want to see written in a quick reference detail in there new bike Manuel.

 

[Doomanic]

I still don’t see what you are getting at.

I can change air pressure, compression damping and rebound damping. All my manuals tell me this and how to change it. They also give me ballpark figures for my weight.

If you are suggesting that a manufacturer should supply detailed instructions with precise figures for every weight of rider you’re flogging a dead horse. It won’t and can’t be done. There are too many variables in riding style and preferences.

 

[MattyB]

I still don’t see what you are getting at.

I can change air pressure, compression damping and rebound damping. All my manuals tell me this and how to change it. They also give me ballpark figures for my weight.

If you are suggesting that a manufacturer should supply detailed instructions with precise figures for every weight of rider you’re flogging a dead horse. It won’t and can’t be done. There are too many variables in riding style and preferences.

Completely agree. All I want to know is the rough guidance figures for sag, compression and rebound damping for my weight - anything else is superfluous since they can change radically between people based on the terrain they ride and how they like a bike to feel.

PS....

Ok, so all i am asking is this.
As a consumer, how detailed would any and all of you like to see come in your owners Manuel for your new bike when you purchase one.

I don't want an owners Manuel at all - he is highly unlikely to know anything about suspension setup... Que?

 

[Kiwi in Wales]

We would need what @Doomanic has stated above and most of us have already received with our bikes.
Just to get you going...
Basic Rear shock set up. This would need to cover air and coil shocks.
Basic Fork set up. This would need to cover air but also coil as they are coming back in fashion now
Basic Tyre/tire pressure set up with guidelines on psi changes for different terrain and guidelines on tubeless
Basic seat post set up with guidelines on normal seat posts, dropper seat posts, seat height for different terrain and riding styles.
Basic cockpit set up with guidelines on position of controls like brake levers, gear levers, dropper post lever, shock lock out etc
Basic riding position set up with guidelines on different terrain etc
Basic bike maintenance with guidelines on what to check and when, tools required and torque settings
Basic protective gear with guidelines on helmets, gloves, elbow pads, knee pads etc
Basic rider care with guidelines on hydration, snacks while riding, fitness etc

Most of the above comes with most ‘new’ bikes but some are lacking in detail.

Is the above what you are after?

The big obviously statement here is....... Will anyone read it? Hopefully they will but like most people with a new toy it is ride it first, crash and then read the instructions while you are in hospital in traction

 

[Tim29]

My first thought was saga, then front end pushes in turns. Bike keeps trying to put me over bars on jump faces, or constant boner airs, bike won’t sertle in chip, back end slides out on loose dirt turn.
Bike always tries to climb out of turn ruts, bike always bottoms on jumps but to harsh on little bumps. Affect of maxing volume spacers vs maxing air pressure. Affects sag stings have on steering geometry.
Bike feels nervous whn bumpy and fast? Slow tuning in tight trees.
Those what i was thinking

 

[Doomanic]

My first thought was saga, then front end pushes in turns. Bike keeps trying to put me over bars on jump faces, or constant boner airs, bike won’t sertle in chip, back end slides out on loose dirt turn.
Bike always tries to climb out of turn ruts, bike always bottoms on jumps but to harsh on little bumps. Affect of maxing volume spacers vs maxing air pressure. Affects sag stings have on steering geometry.
Bike feels nervous whn bumpy and fast? Slow tuning in tight trees.
Those what i was thinking

I'm sorry, what now?

I really don't want to be a grammar nazi (well, ok, I do a little...) but I'm struggling to work out what you are trying to say.

Saga is, I assume, sag.
Boner air? Is that the space between your shaft and your sack?
Sertle? Settle?
There's more, but I've got a dog to walk. Not an euphemism.

 

[Japuserid]

My first thought was saga, then front end pushes in turns. Bike keeps trying to put me over bars on jump faces, or constant boner airs, bike won’t sertle in chip, back end slides out on loose dirt turn.
Bike always tries to climb out of turn ruts, bike always bottoms on jumps but to harsh on little bumps. Affect of maxing volume spacers vs maxing air pressure. Affects sag stings have on steering geometry.
Bike feels nervous whn bumpy and fast? Slow tuning in tight trees.
Those what i was thinking

Hi @Tim29 OK I think I've got your drift, kind of a fault and cure type thing.
KTM and WP were very good at that and I always found Ohlins were also very helpful with this type if information.

It's a great Idea, so write it up for us and share your knowledge, I think a lot of people would be interested and it would be good for members to have to reference from time to time.

But Tim, @Doomanic makes a fair point about your use of grammar and it might pay you to use a program like grammarly as quite honestly
"bike won’t sertle in chip" makes no sense to me whatsoever.

Please understand that I genuinely have no wish to cause offense and I sincerely hope you take this in good spirit.
Looking forward to hearing specific detail.

 

[Hinett]

I might be getting this tread all wrong but is what @Tim29 trying to get, is it you could have 3 different 150mm full suspension bikes from different manufacturers but all have the same suspension fork and shock fitted. These suspension forks and shocks will have the same sticker showing recommended setting for rider weight but these may not be the same settings the designers of each bike would have wanted you to use, but if each bike came with a guide to show customers which settings to start with for THAT bike they would be in a better place to start with. If a have got this wrong sorry for the loooong post ?