Rockshox Monarch RT setup questions

[bigborett]

Fitted the Debonair upgrade to the Monarch on my 2018 Carbon Comp.
Easy job. All fits no problem.
This is the one you want . RockShox DebonAir Air Can Upgrade Kit: 190/200x51 B1+ (Monarch 2014+/RT3 2013+). Part number#00.4018.783.006
Only slightly special tool you need is one of the rubber oil filter tools.
Something like this.

Haven't tried it out yet, maybe tomorrow. Feels compliant.

 

[khorn]

Fitted the Debonair upgrade to the Monarch on my 2018 Carbon Comp.
Easy job. All fits no problem.
This is the one you want . RockShox DebonAir Air Can Upgrade Kit: 190/200x51 B1+ (Monarch 2014+/RT3 2013+). Part number#00.4018.783.006
Only slightly special tool you need is one of the rubber oil filter tools.
Something like this.
View attachment 6856
Haven't tried it out yet, maybe tomorrow. Feels compliant.

Thanks but my Monarch is now collecting dust on the shelf as I fitted a Push upgraded Fox Van RC from TFtuned. Apart from now having 150 mm rear travel the Push coil shock is simply fantastic and I’ll never go back to an air shock.

Karsten

 

[bigborett]

The air can was about $65 US.

 

[Jeff McD]

Thanks but my Monarch is now collecting dust on the shelf as I fitted a Push upgraded Fox Van RC from TFtuned. Apart from now having 150 mm rear travel the Push coil shock is simply fantastic and I’ll never go back to an air shock.

Karsten

Please let us know if you start getting a lot more pedal strikes with the 150 mm travel in the rear. Considering this myself Thanks, Jeff.

 

[khorn]

Please let us know if you start getting a lot more pedal strikes with the 150 mm travel in the rear. Considering this myself Thanks, Jeff.

I’m getting less pedal strikes for sure but to be honest I did not have that many pedal strikes before the upgrade. I’m also running 29” wheels together with a 160 mm fork.

Karsten

 

[skiboycey]

I also put the Debonair air can on. I need very high pressures - 340psi for my 95kg body weight - to have even a chance of decent sag on it and even then it's 35% and I prefer 25-28% but it does now give full travel and is more plush than the standard can. A couple of observations;

1/ I've put two bottomless bands in the negative air chamber to try to get better sag and a better mid-stroke support and have left the volume reducer out as discussed in my previous posts so I now have a huge positive air chamber and quite a small negative one which seems to give a more linear support across the entire stroke length (try saying that to your mates or missus in the pub after a few pints!)

2/ I may experiment with even more bands in the negative chamber to, as far as possible, get rid of it as much as I can whilst retaining the large volume positive one to ensure I keep getting full travel out of it. I don't feel the negative chamber is helping much at my weight as the seal friction is proportionately much less than it would be for a smaller rider. It also, due to the pressure transfer port position in the can, seems to make it very hard to get a decent sag setting.

3/ The damping is better but still crap compared with the standard can. The rebound is much better, probably due to the lower pressures as the shock ramps up. Previously it was too fast even set on full slow. No, in fact, it was just uncontrolled. I think this was because the shock ramped up so aggressively that the rebound was too slow on small bumps and way too fast on big ones so it was like riding an uncontrolled pogo-stick especially when sitting down and hitting rollers whilst pedalling. The compression has gone from being 'about right' to 'too slow' which would need a revalve. I generally find all modern shocks too slow in compression. I don't know why, probably because it makes the bike pedal better but I, personally, don't like it as it makes the shock crap on small, fast 'stutter' bumps and I'd trade a bit of pedalling performance to get that especially where I live in the Alps.

4/ The shock is just generally 'slow', like it moves in treacle. I think this is as much to do with seal drag as damping and probably inherent to air shocks. It might get better as the seals and bushes run in like forks do. It's just more noticable now that we have a reasonable ramp-up pressure in the shock and it's not going from 250 to 1000 psi in 45mm, more like half that so you feel the drag and damping a lot more.

5/ I tend to agree with Karsten that for the bigger lads amongst us a coil is going to be the way forward. Let's be honest I could give up a couple of beers and a pork-pie a week and I'd soon be matching the extra weight of a coil setup in my own weight loss (in fact a good crap in the morning probably does this) and an e-bike is heavy anyway so 500g is nowt, nothing, bugger all in the scheme of things for decent performance when you've already added 7kg of motor and battery and about 15kg of beer gut.

To that end I'm also in contact with TF Tuned but am quite likely to get a 2019 Levo, mainly for the 700Wh battery (see comments about weight above plus living in the Alps where 2000m climbs are everywhere!), and that takes a 210 x 52.5mm shock so any purchase for my 2018 Carbon Expert (190 x 51mm) won't fit. So perhaps I'll just tough it out but get a shock for the new purchase and, as an extra, I won't need to fork out on a yoke as the 2019 bike comes with that fitment as standard, even if I've never heard of a 210 x 52.5 shock absorber! Though I expect the TF Tuned guys will be able to help. I asked but they've not started looking at 2019 Levos yet...

Hope the comments are useful, regards, Mark

 

[khorn]

I also put the Debonair air can on. I need very high pressures - 340psi for my 95kg body weight - to have even a chance of decent sag on it and even then it's 35% and I prefer 25-28% but it does now give full travel and is more plush than the standard can. A couple of observations;

1/ I've put two bottomless bands in the negative air chamber to try to get better sag and a better mid-stroke support and have left the volume reducer out as discussed in my previous posts so I now have a huge positive air chamber and quite a small negative one which seems to give a more linear support across the entire stroke length (try saying that to your mates or missus in the pub after a few pints!)

2/ I may experiment with even more bands in the negative chamber to, as far as possible, get rid of it as much as I can whilst retaining the large volume positive one to ensure I keep getting full travel out of it. I don't feel the negative chamber is helping much at my weight as the seal friction is proportionately much less than it would be for a smaller rider. It also, due to the pressure transfer port position in the can, seems to make it very hard to get a decent sag setting.

3/ The damping is better but still crap compared with the standard can. The rebound is much better, probably due to the lower pressures as the shock ramps up. Previously it was too fast even set on full slow. No, in fact, it was just uncontrolled. I think this was because the shock ramped up so aggressively that the rebound was too slow on small bumps and way too fast on big ones so it was like riding an uncontrolled pogo-stick especially when sitting down and hitting rollers whilst pedalling. The compression has gone from being 'about right' to 'too slow' which would need a revalve. I generally find all modern shocks too slow in compression. I don't know why, probably because it makes the bike pedal better but I, personally, don't like it as it makes the shock crap on small, fast 'stutter' bumps and I'd trade a bit of pedalling performance to get that especially where I live in the Alps.

4/ The shock is just generally 'slow', like it moves in treacle. I think this is as much to do with seal drag as damping and probably inherent to air shocks. It might get better as the seals and bushes run in like forks do. It's just more noticable now that we have a reasonable ramp-up pressure in the shock and it's not going from 250 to 1000 psi in 45mm, more like half that so you feel the drag and damping a lot more.

5/ I tend to agree with Karsten that for the bigger lads amongst us a coil is going to be the way forward. Let's be honest I could give up a couple of beers and a pork-pie a week and I'd soon be matching the extra weight of a coil setup in my own weight loss (in fact a good crap in the morning probably does this) and an e-bike is heavy anyway so 500g is nowt, nothing, bugger all in the scheme of things for decent performance when you've already added 7kg of motor and battery and about 15kg of beer gut.

To that end I'm also in contact with TF Tuned but am quite likely to get a 2019 Levo, mainly for the 700Wh battery (see comments about weight above plus living in the Alps where 2000m climbs are everywhere!), and that takes a 210 x 52.5mm shock so any purchase for my 2018 Carbon Expert (190 x 51mm) won't fit. So perhaps I'll just tough it out but get a shock for the new purchase and, as an extra, I won't need to fork out on a yoke as the 2019 bike comes with that fitment as standard, even if I've never heard of a 210 x 52.5 shock absorber! Though I expect the TF Tuned guys will be able to help. I asked but they've not started looking at 2019 Levos yet...

Hope the comments are useful, regards, Mark

Hello Mark

I think that your comments and feed back is extremely helpful to other riders in a similar situation to you an me, a little bit on the heavier side. Based on your findings, I'm very happy that I jumped on a coil shock right away as I'm 15 kg's heavier than you, meaning that the challenges you have had would have been even more evident for me. TFTuned are the guys to help you out and they can also do all sorts of shortening or lengthen almost any shock. As a matter of fact Cane Creek are making the DBCOIL IL DBcoil IL in a 210x55 and based on how tight it is on the new Levo, it could possibly fit and giving you maybe 8-10 mm more travel. I was very keen on that shock but due to me being a bit heavier than you, I could not get a spring heavy enough for me. The DBCOIL have received loads of positive feedback from many of the major MTB news sites.

Karsten

 

[bigborett]

I also put the Debonair air can on. I need very high pressures - 340psi for my 95kg body weight - to have even a chance of decent sag on it and even then it's 35% and I prefer 25-28% but it does now give full travel and is more plush than the standard can. A couple of observations;

1/ I've put two bottomless bands in the negative air chamber to try to get better sag and a better mid-stroke support and have left the volume reducer out as discussed in my previous posts so I now have a huge positive air chamber and quite a small negative one which seems to give a more linear support across the entire stroke length (try saying that to your mates or missus in the pub after a few pints!)

2/ I may experiment with even more bands in the negative chamber to, as far as possible, get rid of it as much as I can whilst retaining the large volume positive one to ensure I keep getting full travel out of it. I don't feel the negative chamber is helping much at my weight as the seal friction is proportionately much less than it would be for a smaller rider. It also, due to the pressure transfer port position in the can, seems to make it very hard to get a decent sag setting.

3/ The damping is better but still crap compared with the standard can. The rebound is much better, probably due to the lower pressures as the shock ramps up. Previously it was too fast even set on full slow. No, in fact, it was just uncontrolled. I think this was because the shock ramped up so aggressively that the rebound was too slow on small bumps and way too fast on big ones so it was like riding an uncontrolled pogo-stick especially when sitting down and hitting rollers whilst pedalling. The compression has gone from being 'about right' to 'too slow' which would need a revalve. I generally find all modern shocks too slow in compression. I don't know why, probably because it makes the bike pedal better but I, personally, don't like it as it makes the shock crap on small, fast 'stutter' bumps and I'd trade a bit of pedalling performance to get that especially where I live in the Alps.

4/ The shock is just generally 'slow', like it moves in treacle. I think this is as much to do with seal drag as damping and probably inherent to air shocks. It might get better as the seals and bushes run in like forks do. It's just more noticable now that we have a reasonable ramp-up pressure in the shock and it's not going from 250 to 1000 psi in 45mm, more like half that so you feel the drag and damping a lot more.

5/ I tend to agree with Karsten that for the bigger lads amongst us a coil is going to be the way forward. Let's be honest I could give up a couple of beers and a pork-pie a week and I'd soon be matching the extra weight of a coil setup in my own weight loss (in fact a good crap in the morning probably does this) and an e-bike is heavy anyway so 500g is nowt, nothing, bugger all in the scheme of things for decent performance when you've already added 7kg of motor and battery and about 15kg of beer gut.

To that end I'm also in contact with TF Tuned but am quite likely to get a 2019 Levo, mainly for the 700Wh battery (see comments about weight above plus living in the Alps where 2000m climbs are everywhere!), and that takes a 210 x 52.5mm shock so any purchase for my 2018 Carbon Expert (190 x 51mm) won't fit. So perhaps I'll just tough it out but get a shock for the new purchase and, as an extra, I won't need to fork out on a yoke as the 2019 bike comes with that fitment as standard, even if I've never heard of a 210 x 52.5 shock absorber! Though I expect the TF Tuned guys will be able to help. I asked but they've not started looking at 2019 Levos yet...

Hope the comments are useful, regards, Mark

I'm about 97kg and get 30% at around 275 to 290psi (with no gear on, but probably only adds maybe 2 kg), depends what the pump tells me.
Are you running the RT3 or just the RT as I am?

The higher pressures you are running would most likely be due to the volume reducer being removed. Having to displace more volume before a pressure is reached that will support your gargantuan body.

Currently I have 2 bands in the positive chamber and none in the negative.
I do however want something that is comfortable when I'm cruising(read; old man) but ramps up enough to take the big hits when I get energetic(read; old enough to know better).
Seems to be doing ok at the moment, but have only been out for one leisurely ride since the mod.

Edit:- See you are on the RT3.

 

[nappa]

im having the same problems as you spoke to fin at tf tuned and this is what he recommended:

OK the best thing to do with that bike is to change the shock mounting at the rear with the Bike Yoke mount @ £95

Specialized Stumpjumper 2016-2017 and Turbo Levo 2016-2017


This will allow you to fit any 190 x 50mm rear shock and the options there are many


Starting with the cane Creek Inline at £330 + spring @£95 DBcoil IL - Shocks - TF Tuned

Cane creek DB CS £525 + spring @£95 Cane Creek Double Barrel Coil CS - Shocks - TF Tuned

Fox DHX2 £649 + spring @£95 Fox DHX2 2019

Ohilns TTX £639 + spring @£95 Ohlins - Shocks - TF Tuned

 

[khorn]

im having the same problems as you spoke to fin at tf tuned and this is what he recommended:

OK the best thing to do with that bike is to change the shock mounting at the rear with the Bike Yoke mount @ £95

Specialized Stumpjumper 2016-2017 and Turbo Levo 2016-2017


This will allow you to fit any 190 x 50mm rear shock and the options there are many


Starting with the cane Creek Inline at £330 + spring @£95 DBcoil IL - Shocks - TF Tuned

Cane creek DB CS £525 + spring @£95 Cane Creek Double Barrel Coil CS - Shocks - TF Tuned

Fox DHX2 £649 + spring @£95 Fox DHX2 2019

Ohilns TTX £639 + spring @£95 Ohlins - Shocks - TF Tuned

I don't know if your fully kitted weight is the 107 kg, if not you will have to add a few kg to the equation - Getting a well fitted spring when we are around 110 kg can also be a challenge and the reason for me not choosing a Cane Creek was that TFTuned said that it would be difficult to find a heavy enough spring. I ended up with this shock and a 800 lbs spring tuned to my needs, with only minimum preload my sag is sitting just around 28%:

PUSH Tuned VAN 2019

I'm extremely satisfied with the result and could not ask for anything better.

Karsten

 

[nappa]

I don't know if your fully kitted weight is the 107 kg, if not you will have to add a few kg to the equation - Getting a well fitted spring when we are around 110 kg can also be a challenge and the reason for me not choosing a Cane Creek was that TFTuned said that it would be difficult to find a heavy enough spring. I ended up with this shock and a 800 lbs spring tuned to my needs, with only minimum preload my sag is sitting just around 28%:

PUSH Tuned VAN 2019

I'm extremely satisfied with the result and could not ask for anything better.

Karsten

I think I will copy your setup mate, so correct me if I'm wrong I need the following:

PUSH TUNED VAN 2019 190x50

the yoke
Specialized Stumpjumper 2016-2017 and Turbo Levo 2016-2017

and a spring but not sure what one as there is 2.3 2.5

and yes im 107kg fully kitted up

sorry when it come to tech stuff im like a 3 year old

 

[khorn]

I think I will copy your setup mate, so correct me if I'm wrong I need the following:

PUSH TUNED VAN 2019 190x50

the yoke
Specialized Stumpjumper 2016-2017 and Turbo Levo 2016-2017

and a spring but not sure what one as there is 2.3 2.5

and yes im 107kg fully kitted up

sorry when it come to tech stuff im like a 3 year old

Give them a call and ask for Paul and say that you would like to have a similar setup to "Karsten from Denmark" and he will know exactly what we are talking about. A good advice is to follow their reconsiderations as they really are knowledgeable people. Only thing I would say, based on the fact that I'm a few kg heavier than you, is that you properly need a bit lighter spring than me but they will know. finally, you will also need to have a bushing kit that fit the bike/shock.

Karsten

 

[nappa]

Give them a call and ask for Paul and say that you would like to have a similar setup to "Karsten from Denmark" and he will know exactly what we are talking about. A good advice is to follow their reconsiderations as they really are knowledgeable people. Only thing I would say, based on the fact that I'm a few kg heavier than you, is that you properly need a bit lighter spring than me but they will know. finally, you will also need to have a bushing kit that fit the bike/shock.

Karsten

Yep he remembers you, spoke with him and ordered the same setup with a 800x2.3

 

[Troutwrestler]

Skiboycey, did you ever remove the spacer?

 

[Banktramp]

Out of interest does anyone know where to get the outer red travel o’ring from, for the deluxe rt model, mine appears to be a little loose and slides all the way down during a ride.

 

[Swissrob]

Hi

I initially also thought this foam 'doughnut' was a bump-stop but it can't be once you look at the construction. Hard to explain without a cutaway diagram but it sits over and around the casting that the main shaft screws into and the kinematics of the shock are not changed by removing it. I.e. the piston cannot go any further with it taken out as it's stopped by a rubber o-ring, a large washer (more of that in a minute) and another o-ring below this. They all stop at the point where the main shaft is threaded into the upper part of the shock. The mystery 'doughnut' goes above this so doesn't affect the mechanics of how the shock works. It's also made of a very rigid type of white expanded foam that would make an awful bump-stop. I think it's what I first suggested - a volume reducer...

Coming to the o-ring/washer/o-ring assembly that serves as the bump-stop/end of travel limiter I noticed that compared to the RockShox service manual I download of a standard RT3 shock that there's a 4mm plastic spacer put into the assembly that seems, to me, to be a travel limiter for the shock. As a standard RT3 is 51mm travel and this one is stamped (197*47) on the bottom this is probably the addition that limits the shock travel and makes the shock 'proprietary' to the Levo. In fact I'd suggest this is just a standard 190/51 shock with a 4mm plastic washer put at the top of the piston to limit it to 47mm. Which - stay with me here - also suggests that one could take it out to restore the 51mm of travel and thereby turn the rear suspension into having about 4 * 2.8 = 11mm more travel so you'd have 145 at the rear ONLY after testing the suspension could handle it and nothing collided with the frame etc.

Thinking more (I can't help it, it's how I'm made!) the presence of this 4mm spacer would also explain the volume limiter that was put in. If the shock can't go it's full travel before bottoming out then Specialized probably added the volume reducer to ramp up the shock at the end of the travel and prevent bottoming. In effect it restores the minimum volume of the shock at full compression and will make the ramp-up curve steeper throughout the travel. I guess, as I suggested earlier, that this works very well for 'mr average' (75Kg, 5'10") but not so well for us older fatties (95Kg, 6'0") who ride a bit less aggressively due to age but need a hefty amount of pressure to get the sag required. With us the volume at the end of travel will be too small and we'll get a shock which we only get 80% travel on OR we have to have too much sag and whack the pedals every 30 seconds on rocks.

So I might take out the plastic washer if I can figure out how to get the shock apart without doing a major rebuild on it, which I don't have time for right now, though it's actually not particularly difficult given a couple of cups of tea and about 2 hours and a few special tools. I've rebuilt many in the past - Fox DHX 4.0 (which was supposedly unserviceable by a home mechanic), Fox Float forks, the dreaded Fox Fit 4.0 cartridge (that was a bastard), many Fox air shocks, my daughter's downhill bike's Monarch that needed lighter weight oil in it as it had way too much damping for her weight and a Stealth Reverb dropper post (another bastard). At the end of the day shocks are not much more than glorified pogo-sticks with some damping built in and once you start taking them apart they are easy to modify by changing oil weight, shim stacks, valving heights etc. If the kinematics of the suspension will take the extra 10mm of travel I'll give it a go and see...

One last thing - why did Specialized limit the travel if it can handle it? I don't know! Maybe to prevent pedal strikes or damage to the motor casing over big terrain? Perhaps with more travel the bike wallows a lot when pedalling? Or maybe the suspension arms really do hit the frame at a full-travel 146mm. Not sure but I'll have a look and report back. If the limit washer, however, is a bugger to get off and requires an entire shock rebuild to get at it it'll have to wait a while as I have work and kids to attend to. In fact that's my missus calling time on my visit to the loo, where I'm typing this whilst perched on the crapper, so I'll have to be off.

Musing about suspension is great but not if it entails an angry missus and a cold cup of tea afterwards...

Regards, Mark

Did you end up taking out the plastic bump stop? What effect did it have?

I am doing a full damper service on a Monarch RT and after searching far and wide still haven't found any information on changing the oil volume/viscosity and the air preload charge for the damper apart from what Rockshox recommends. This got me to thinking that it could be a good way to tune the damper without changing the shim stack. On another note trying to source an adapter to charge the damper is not so easy here, a visit to 3 local bike shops revealed that they don't even have them in their own workshops but would happily service the damper for 150! I would have paid to have the damper charged but...