Rise creaking under pedaling load

[LParker3]

Rod,
Thanks for your quick reply. I'll check the headset and saddle rails before tackling the linkage. But they both sound quiet. I already removed and cleaned and greased the cranks. (That is where I get my creaking on my Santa Cruz Tallboy.)
Your diagrams are for the Rise Carbon. I have the Hydro, which uses a preload tool.

 

[Rod B.]

Rod,
Thanks for your quick reply. I'll check the headset and saddle rails before tackling the linkage. But they both sound quiet. I already removed and cleaned and greased the cranks. (That is where I get my creaking on my Santa Cruz Tallboy.)
Your diagrams are for the Rise Carbon. I have the Hydro, which uses a preload tool.

LParker3,

I was honestly surprised to discover the 2023 Rise Hydro did not receive the new upper linkage design. I'd mistakenly thought both models had received the updated pivot axle assembly. For 2024, Orbea gave the Rise Hydro the newer two piece upper pivot axle and linkage arm design.

Because your Hydro model has the older style upper pivot axle design, then yes, my linkage papers will all apply to your Rise Hydro. Now that I know you have the old linkage design, then I would suspect that your noise issue is likely related to your linkage arm having slipped slightly on the upper pivot axle. This in turn will allow excess play in the upper pivot axle and creaking will occur.

Be sure to go very sparingly when you apply the Loctite 638 cylindrical retaining compound. Use only a drop of 638 on each splined inlet on the linkage arms. Apply the drop to your fingertip and then spread it very thinly around. This will keep the linkage arms from loosening on the upper pivot axle and future disassembly will not be difficult.

Important: If you apply too much of the cylindrical retaining compound, you will encounter difficulty disassembly the linkage at a later date. It's not impossible to get the linkage apart, however it will be very difficult. Unfortunately, Loctite 638 or a similar cylindrical retaining compound is the only way to keep the linkage arms from slipping on the upper pivot axle. You can opt to not to use any cylindrical retaining compound. If you do this, the continuous movement of the linkage arm(s) slipping on the axle will eventually cause severe excess wear. The slippage will become so frequent, you will eventually need to replace the upper axle and linkage arms.

If your financial situation allows, you may want to consider upgrading your Rise Hydro's upper linkage arms Cascade Components Rise linkage arm kit and the "Pre-Load" Kit. Cascade's parts will stiffen the rear triangle by preventing linkage arm slippage. You will not need to use Loctite 638, which will make feature maintenance tasks much easier.

Cascade lists the linkage arm as available for only 2020-2022 Rises. However, because your Rise has the 2020-2022 older style of three piece linkage arm and axle, then Cascades' kit should work. You will absolutely need to verify this by contacting Cascade before purchasing the linkage arms and Pre-Load Kit.

Orbea Suspension Links

 

[LParker3]

Rod,
According to the Blue Paper for my 2023 Hydro, the install only requires the blue loctite, not the 638. See page 7 and 68.

 

[Rod B.]

Rod,
According to the Blue Paper for my 2023 Hydro, the install only requires the blue loctite, not the 638. See page 7 and 68.

Yes, you are correct, the 2023 Rise manual does not call for a cylindrical retaining compound. Interestingly, Orbea lists the Loctite 600 series cylindrical retain compound on page 7, but it does not show it being applied anywhere on the bike. Why list it if it's not used anywhere?

You can always run your upper linkage free of any cylindrical retaining compound. If your upper linkage does not shift on the upper pivot axle then you're good to go. If it does shift, then use the retaining compound.

I think what dictates linkage arm slippage is how hard a Rise is being pushed. If a rider tends to ride smooth flow trail, then linkage arm slippage will not be an issue. However, if the bike is being pushed hard on chunky trail, rock gardens, berms, and jumps, then the chance of the linkage arms loosening up increases substantially.

The axle spline and the splined inlet on the linkage arms, are a close tolerance fit. Every time the tolerance fit is disturbed, as an example, the linkage arm(s) begin shifting on the axle, or the arm is removed from the axle for maintenance, micro amounts of aluminum material are removed from the axle and linkage arm. The close tolerance fit becomes less close. As material is lost, the loosening up of the linkage arm will occur at a more rapid rate after each Pre-Load reset.

The question is, do you want to stop the wear before gets severe? If you do, then use a cylindrical retaining compound. It's very much your personal choice.

Do not feel compelled to try high strength Loctite 648. Loctite sells various strengths of cylindrical retaining compound. Loctite 641 is a medium strength compound that is easier to work with and to disassemble than 648. Your bike is fairly new and the wear on the splines may not be severe. 641 may work well for your situation. My Rise linkage was very worn and I was resetting pre-load once a month. Loctite 648 immediately solved the slippage issue. Just go sparingly with the 648.

 

[LParker3]

Rod,
I'm trying hard to avoid the slippery slope of aftermarket mods. I did it with my 2018 Santa Cruz Tallboy.
Before working on the linkage with the Orbea today , I checked the rear axel and discovered the weird "pull and turn" derailleur hanger connector. I've only had the bike since July and never took of the rear wheel. I always carry a spare hanger but realized I'd never get that connector off without a pliers, which I don't carry.
Any thoughts?

 

[Rod B.]

Rod,
I'm trying hard to avoid the slippery slope of aftermarket mods. I did it with my 2018 Santa Cruz Tallboy.
Before working on the linkage with the Orbea today , I checked the rear axel and discovered the weird "pull and turn" derailleur hanger connector. I've only had the bike since July and never took of the rear wheel. I always carry a spare hanger but realized I'd never get that connector off without a pliers, which I don't carry.
Any thoughts?

Brother, half the fun in mountain biking is the "Slippery Slope" of aftermarket mods, just ask my wife....wahoo!!! On second thought, don't ask her...

I think the Rise is a very versatile "Trail" bike. In stock form, the bike is a capable trail bike. There are not that many eBikes out there that can match the Rise's combination of power, range and lightness. However, the Rise in stock form has shortcomings that limit the bike's capabilities, especially if a rider wishes to take the bike onto more technical terrain. I totally respect your desire to not want to mod your bike. I've been there. However, if you wish to safely take the bike onto more technical terrain, you may need to anticipate sliding down that slippery slope to the land were mods exist. Feel free to shoot me a private message if you want to discuss possible mods.

As you've mentioned, there is a black plastic Castellated "Pull and Turn" nut located on the right (Drive Side) rear drop out on the Rise. The castellated nut holds the derailleur hanger in place. The rear axle inserts into the castellated nut and threads into an insert located on the non drive side (Left) of the bike.

To remove the castellated nut, you first need to remove the rear axle and rear wheel. Next you take your fingernails or a soft pry lever and pull up slightly on the nut. Next turn the castellated nut in a counter-clockwise half turn direction. This will release the castellated nut and you can remove the derailleur hanger by pushing it out of the castellated nut. The derailleur hanger is held in place inside the castellated nut via a friction fit which is caused by a small thin "O" ring which wraps around the shoulder of the derailleur hanger. In the parts diagrams you will see "C" clips. The "C" clips retain the rear chain stay pivot bearings in their bore holes. The C clips have no function with the inserts.

Note: You do not need to remove the castellated nut to remove the rear axle and rear wheel. You must remove the rear axle to remove the castellated nut. The castellated nut is made of soft plastic that can be easily damaged if you use pliers to pull up on and turn. Sometimes the nut can be difficult to pull up on, especially if there's a lot of crusty trail build up. I like to spray a little bit of lubrication, i.e. WD-40 or something similar onto the nut and let it soak in before I try removing the nut.

IMPORTANT: The left, non-drive side chain stay has a threaded black alloy insert that fits into the chain stay. The rear axle threads into this insert. The insert is held in place on the chain stay via a friction fit which is caused by a thin "O" ring that wraps around the shoulder of alloy insert. If you examine the picture below, you will note that the left insert has a notched indentation.

There is a corresponding notched indentation that is molded into the seat stay. The indentation prevents the insert from turning when you tighten the rear axle. HOWEVER....it's very easy to dislodge the insert slightly when working on the rear. This may cause the insert indentation to fall out of alignment with the seat stay notched indentation. If you tighten the axle with the inserts out of alignment, this can damage the seat stay notch. Before tightening the axle, always make sure the insert's notched indentation and the seat stay notch are aligned.

The derailleur hanger on the Rise is fairly stout. I put about 3,200 miles on my Rise before I sold it to my brother. I never had an issue with bending the hanger. That's not to say bending a derailleur can't be done, anything is possible with the right rock strike.

It's important to know that Orbea spare parts all come from the factory in Spain. It takes about three to four weeks or more, for spare parts to reach So Cal from Spain. When I first got my Rise, I bought a host of spare parts as I did not want my bike to be down four weeks while waiting for parts. I bought a spare derailleur hanger, pivot bearing kit, rubber chain stay guard, chain guide and charging cover door. I've used everything except for the derailleur hanger.

In regards to pliers, I keep a "Leatherman, Squirt PS4" in my hip pack. The Squirt PS4 is a micro sized multi-tool which contains a pair of pliers. I've lost count of how many times that small micro pair of pliers has bailed people out on the trail. I once used the pliers to straighten out a rider's bent derailleur hanger while on the Whole Enchilada in Moab. The guy was dead in the water. The only other option would have been to remove the derailleur and make his bike a single speed. The pliers did the trick.

If your interested, I did a tech article on "Trailside Repair - What's in my pack." If you would like to read the article, here is a link.

Trailside Repair - What's in my pack

Hello, It's been a while since I've written a technical article. I thought I'd change it up and talk about what items I carry in my pack and why I carry them. Hopefully this article may give you some thought on what to carry in your own ride pack. What I carry, may not be what you carry. Forum...

www.emtbforums.com

As a side note, I still have my 2018 Santa Cruz Hightower Lt. It's such a great bike.


Be safe,
Rod

 

[LParker3]

Rod,
The creak is gone!
Removed the upper linkage. Cleaned and re-greased. Followed the blue paper without issues.
I replaced the derailleur hanger with one from North Shore Billet. Their retainer ring fits easier and is easier to remove. Their ring actually works with my space Orbea hanger. The original one with the original ring, which I removed, was really tight.

 

[cookie70]

It's important to know that Orbea spare parts all come from the factory in Spain.

I was stunned to learn this is the same over here in Aus. The distributor does not carry any spares, everything has to be ordered in, including bearings etc! If your lucky, a local dealer might carry a hanger or something!

 

[skinnyboy]

I was stunned to learn this is the same over here in Aus. The distributor does not carry any spares, everything has to be ordered in, including bearings etc! If your lucky, a local dealer might carry a hanger or something!

Orbea took quite a while to ship a hanger to Canada. Don't really see the advantage of a bike shop purchase vs direct to consumer from a support standpoint, with this brand anyway. Fortunately just a warranty/back up part as the North Shore Billet hanger is far better.

Cheers.

 

[Rod B.]

Rod,
The creak is gone!
Removed the upper linkage. Cleaned and re-greased. Followed the blue paper without issues.
I replaced the derailleur hanger with one from North Shore Billet. Their retainer ring fits easier and is easier to remove. Their ring actually works with my space Orbea hanger. The original one with the original ring, which I removed, was really tight.

LParker3,

That's awesome to hear and great news.

 

[Bnito]

I recently bought brand new m20 2022 model, which was on sale. Have ridden maybe 15 hours. Noticed annoying creaking sound when pedalling, saddle was loose, eliminated that. Still cracking, disassembled the linkage system. I noticed few mm slop in the linkage, no wonder it made a sound, installed everything back as it was with the preload tool, noise is now gone. Seems a bit odd design.

Will a cascade link eliminate whole issue?

Edit :

I also noticed that the non-drive side upper chainstay does not move freely. I had loose rear axle and for some reason i tightened it from the wrong side (non drive side) I think i messed up the non drive side flange due to over tightening the axle.

Does anyone know is the non drive side hardware held in place with the metal circlip shown in the photo, and how to remove the non drive side hardware?

 

[cookie70]

Will a cascade link eliminate whole issue?

with the preload add on yes. I still get creaks but it is other things on the Rise like motor bolts, rear end pivots and seatpost these days. I recently installed the North Shore Billet Derailleur Hanger, that made a big difference and I am currently enjoying a silent phase on the bike.

 

[Rod B.]

I recently bought brand new m20 2022 model, which was on sale. Have ridden maybe 15 hours. Noticed annoying creaking sound when pedalling, saddle was loose, eliminated that. Still cracking, disassembled the linkage system. I noticed few mm slop in the linkage, no wonder it made a sound, installed everything back as it was with the preload tool, noise is now gone. Seems a bit odd design.

Will a cascade link eliminate whole issue?

Edit :

I also noticed that the non-drive side upper chainstay does not move freely. I had loose rear axle and for some reason i tightened it from the wrong side (non drive side) I think i messed up the non drive side flange due to over tightening the axle.

Does anyone know is the non drive side hardware held in place with the metal circlip shown in the photo, and how to remove the non drive side hardware?

View attachment 139875

I recently bought brand new m20 2022 model, which was on sale. Have ridden maybe 15 hours. Noticed annoying creaking sound when pedalling, saddle was loose, eliminated that. Still cracking, disassembled the linkage system. I noticed few mm slop in the linkage, no wonder it made a sound, installed everything back as it was with the preload tool, noise is now gone. Seems a bit odd design.

Will a cascade link eliminate whole issue?

Edit :

I also noticed that the non-drive side upper chainstay does not move freely. I had loose rear axle and for some reason i tightened it from the wrong side (non drive side) I think i messed up the non drive side flange due to over tightening the axle.

Does anyone know is the non drive side hardware held in place with the metal circlip shown in the photo, and how to remove the non drive side hardware?

View attachment 139875

Bnito,

The "C" clip holds the rear pivot bearing in place. The non drive side, chain stay and seat stay are held together via friction caused by a small rubber "O" ring (Part # 3.2) which is located in a machined groove on part # 3.1.

To separate the non drive side chain stay and seat stay, simply hold the chain stay with one hand and hit the seat stay with the palm of your other hand and they will separate.

Note: There is a notch machined into Part # 3.1 and a corresponding notch machined into the chain stay. The notched items prevent part # 3.1 from spinning when you tighten the rear axle. The male and female notches must be aligned when you re-assemble the components and tighten the rear axle. If the notches are not aligned, you can damage the chain stay and or part # 3.1, i.e. square peg in a round hole situation.

Cheers,
Rod

 

[Bnito]

Bnito,

The "C" clip holds the rear pivot bearing in place. The non drive side, chain stay and seat stay are held together via friction caused by a small rubber "O" ring (Part # 3.2) which is located in a machined groove on part # 3.1.

To separate the non drive side chain stay and seat stay, simply hold the chain stay with one hand and hit the seat stay with the palm of your other hand and they will separate.

Note: There is a notch machined into Part # 3.1 and a corresponding notch machined into the chain stay. The notched items prevent part # 3.1 from spinning when you tighten the rear axle. The male and female notches must be aligned when you re-assemble the components and tighten the rear axle. If the notches are not aligned, you can damage the chain stay and or part # 3.1, i.e. square peg in a round hole situation.

Cheers,
Rod

Thanks, got the chainstay and seatstay separated, just few taps with a rubbermallet did the job.

Everything seems to be okay, there is no damage on the non-drive side.

 

[Bnito]

Got even more creaking sounds

I use my rise 95% just to climb to my local hill and ride the downhill routes down and do this same loop over and over again. Orbea wild would maybe be the right tool for the job, but i wanted a more nimble bike because i own a dh bike and a long travel enduro bike.

Anyway... I noticed a lot more creaking , turns out that i managed to lose one motor mounting bolt, bought a new one from the local dealer. Inspected all motor bolts and another one next to the lost bolt was getting loose aswell, nasty place behind the chainring/chainguide. Now all tight and no creaking.

Rear axle seems to get loose quite easily.

 

[Weeksy]

Rear axle seems to get loose quite easily.

Yeah i've found that on my purple one which is the one with the newer linkage. (Not that the linkage should affect the axle of course). If my lad is playing on it then the axle at times is coming loose, but he's hitting a lot bigger things than i am. (but is a lot lighter).

 

[faberle]

recent cracking noise (on loading the pedal) on mine got fixed by changing the rear wheel. Disk, derailleur and cassette were fine, issue is somewhere else on the wheel/hub. The previous cracking noise last year was fixed by replacing pivot bearing.

 

[Rod B.]

recent cracking noise (on loading the pedal) on mine got fixed by changing the rear wheel. Disk, derailleur and cassette were fine, issue is somewhere else on the wheel/hub. The previous cracking noise last year was fixed by replacing pivot bearing.

Faberle,

Another issue on the Rise which will cause a creaking noise while pedaling, are a worn out drive side (Right Side) hub bearing and the two freehub bearings. The noise will sound similar to a crunching noise when pedaling under a load. The noise will start out small but get progressively louder and worse as the rear hub bearings wear out.

Fortunately, the fix is relatively easy and quick. All a person need do is replace the cartridge bearings in the hub and freehub.

It's important to understand that most bicycle hubs made nowadays were designed and made to handle the pedaling loads of a traditional pedal bike. The small bearings were not specifically designed to withstand the immense torque produced by an electric motor rapidly propelling you and your eBike up a hill. All rear bike hubs have a total of four small bearings. Two bearings are located in the hub, they are the left and right rear hub bearings. Two additional bearings are are located inside the freehub-driver. The cassette attaches to the freehub-driver. The freehub-driver allows the cassette to freely spin when coasting and also drive the rear wheel forward when pedaling.

The drive side (Right Side) hub bearing and the two freehub-driver bearings take a lot of abuse. While there is no hard and fast rule for when they need replacing, you can reasonably expect to replace the rear hub and freehub bearing around 1,200-1,500 miles of hard punishing trail riding.

There are two ways to tell if your rear hub or freehub bearings are going bad. The first is to place your bike on a bike stand. Spin the pedals and let the rear wheel spin. Place your fingertip on the chain stay of the bike and feel for vibration. You should feel a silky smoothness as the wheel spins. If you feel any vibration transmitting into your fingertip, you have a rear hub and or freehub-driver bearing going bad. Another way to check for a bad rear hub bearing is to place your bike on the ground and laying on it's side. Place your foot on the rear wheel (Rim &Tire). Pull upwards on the bike with the handlebars. Listen for an creaking sound coming from the rear wheel. If you hear a noise, you have a rear wheel hub bearing going bad.

I hope this helps,
Rod

 

[faberle]

@Rod B. thanks, yes it helps. I will look into this as I really like the stock race face wheels.