Mud hugger
Rise creaking under pedaling load
- Thread starter RickBullotta
- Start date
Well, i went ahead and removed the upper splined through shaft, re greased and inserted the correct way according to this thread it was in the wrong way, all put back together and just enough pre tension, it doesn't take much tension to make the shaft notchy .
I still have the creek although the bikes new so not surprised that wasn't the culprit, time for some more investigating when i can be bothered. For now i will keep riding.
There is one odd thing, it could be normal shimano motor rattle though. If i shake the bike gently side to side while holding a little tension on the pedals to eliminate motor free play there seems to be a rattle from within the down tube Is this still motor rattle while tension is on the pedals or possibly something loose within the down tube ?
I still have the creek although the bikes new so not surprised that wasn't the culprit, time for some more investigating when i can be bothered. For now i will keep riding.
There is one odd thing, it could be normal shimano motor rattle though. If i shake the bike gently side to side while holding a little tension on the pedals to eliminate motor free play there seems to be a rattle from within the down tube
Is this still motor rattle while tension is on the pedals or possibly something loose within the down tube ?
Rod B.
Well-known member
Mak,Well, i went ahead and removed the upper splined through shaft, re greased and inserted the correct way according to this thread it was in the wrong way, all put back together and just enough pre tension, it doesn't take much tension to make the shaft notchy .
I still have the creek although the bikes new so not surprised that wasn't the culprit, time for some more investigating when i can be bothered. For now i will keep riding.
There is one odd thing, it could be normal shimano motor rattle though. If i shake the bike gently side to side while holding a little tension on the pedals to eliminate motor free play there seems to be a rattle from within the down tube
Did you use the Loctite 638? If you didn't, the upper linkage arm(s) will loosen up and creak after only a few rides. The lower pivot axle will also creak in a similar fashion if it runs dry of lubrication. If you ever remove the motor, you will find that the lower axle and bearings are exposed and subject to dirt and water contamination. Lastly, I would remove the rear axle, derailleur hanger and non drive side drop out and grease everything. That should eliminate the creaking.
Regarding the downtube. Unlike other bike manufacturers, Orbea never molded a separate channel in the downtube to run the cable housing and wiring inside. Would be nice if they did. The Rise downtube is open with no channel and the cable housing, i.e. brake hose, dropper cable, derailleur cable and wiring is free to rattle against the battery and downtube.
RickBullotta
E*POWAH Elite World Champion
- Thread starter
- #34
I sold the Rise and got an S-Works Levo, so "problem solved".
Was the squeak that bad lol.My creek/squeak/click is still hear. The bike only has 200 miles on it. Its not coming from, head stock/ any suspension linkage including rear hub / derailleur or axle. I've removed re greased and applied the correct preload to the crank arms. Pedals are new . To be honest all of it is still new and factory grease intact.
I have re done the pivot axles lower and upper and again all good and fitted correctly .
The bike is silent in every situation until the pedals are turned . I get that pedalling applies load to suspension components and will emphasise a creek by putting stress on components.
My bike will not squeak or creek until the pedals are turned while riding, no load just gently turning behind the motor it squeaks.
It creeks while not applying any pressure but turning the cranks backwards also
Its got to be motor mounts although all are correctly torqued up.
RickBullotta
E*POWAH Elite World Champion
- Thread starter
- #36
My creek/squeak/click is still hear. The bike only has 200 miles on it. Its not coming from, head stock/ any suspension linkage including rear hub / derailleur or axle. I've removed re greased and applied the correct preload to the crank arms. Pedals are new . To be honest all of it is still new and factory grease intact.
I have re done the pivot axles lower and upper and again all good and fitted correctly .
The bike is silent in every situation until the pedals are turned . I get that pedalling applies load to suspension components and will emphasise a creek by putting stress on components.
My bike will not squeak or creek until the pedals are turned while riding, no load just gently turning behind the motor it squeaks.
It creeks while not applying any pressure but turning the cranks backwards also
Its got to be motor mounts although all are correctly torqued up.
In my case, it was the (very odd) rear axle/dropout/threads setup on the Rise that was causing my squeak. I replaced that and the noise went away.
Rod B.
Well-known member
Mak, occasionally, my Rise gets a squeaking noise while pedaling. It only occurs if the motor has been exposed to a lot of powdery dirt. The noise appears to be originating at where the spindle enters into the engine case. My thought is there's some sort of seal to keep water and dirt out of the engine and the dust is drying it out. I've never taken an EP8 motor apart so I can't confirm this. I'd describe the noise as a high pitched squeak and irritating as hell. It only appears when pedaling, i.e. the spindle is turning.
My creek/squeak/click is still hear. The bike only has 200 miles on it. Its not coming from, head stock/ any suspension linkage including rear hub / derailleur or axle. I've removed re greased and applied the correct preload to the crank arms. Pedals are new . To be honest all of it is still new and factory grease intact.
I have re done the pivot axles lower and upper and again all good and fitted correctly .
The bike is silent in every situation until the pedals are turned . I get that pedalling applies load to suspension components and will emphasise a creek by putting stress on components.
My bike will not squeak or creek until the pedals are turned while riding, no load just gently turning behind the motor it squeaks.
It creeks while not applying any pressure but turning the cranks backwards also
Its got to be motor mounts although all are correctly torqued up.
If I wash the bike and clean up around the spindle area using a paint brush and water, the noise will go away and won't return unless I once again expose the bike to a lot of dry and powdery dirt. Occasionally I will take off the chainring to clean the spindle area behind the chainring. I've got almost 3,000 miles on the bike and the motor is still running very strong. I don't think the noise is mechanical, i.e. bad bearing. I think it's just dirt built up around the spindle seal area. The noise is much like a dusty car window track which will squeak when the window is rolled up or down.
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I found that I was over tightening the preload key for the top link and this was causing my creak. I’ve since eased it off and now have a silent bike.
on a separate note e13 are having a25% off sale direct on their website for anyone who needs chainrings.
on a separate note e13 are having a25% off sale direct on their website for anyone who needs chainrings.
Rod, thanks again for your reply. So today i turned the bike upside down and removed the plastic motor guard giving access to mountings.
I have literary covered all moving and non moving parts in the worse substance known to man, ACF 50 via mist spay. This stuff gets into every nook and cranny and will eliminate any squeak for a limited time, even a fixed point between two surfaces on carbon.
I have been able to get the bike to creek in the garage by just sitting on it and moving it side to side with my weight on the pedals, i got the lad to train his ear to where its coming from and i agree with his ear, rear shock front bolt mount.
I removed it ( again) and greased hell out of its mountings and shaft, torqued back up to 6nm .
Quick 10 mile ride to let all that oil soak in and guess what!! Its still there
The creek is audible over the motor and is constant to my peddling .
I'm beginning to think its an inherent creek linked specifically to my carbon frame build and its a stress part of the frame that's creaking so at this moment in time I think I just need to except it and enjoy the company it gives me on my lone rides
On a plus note i have the most greased up oil covered new orbea rise on the planet lol.
I have literary covered all moving and non moving parts in the worse substance known to man, ACF 50 via mist spay. This stuff gets into every nook and cranny and will eliminate any squeak for a limited time, even a fixed point between two surfaces on carbon.
I have been able to get the bike to creek in the garage by just sitting on it and moving it side to side with my weight on the pedals, i got the lad to train his ear to where its coming from and i agree with his ear, rear shock front bolt mount.
I removed it ( again) and greased hell out of its mountings and shaft, torqued back up to 6nm .
Quick 10 mile ride to let all that oil soak in and guess what!! Its still there
The creek is audible over the motor and is constant to my peddling .
I'm beginning to think its an inherent creek linked specifically to my carbon frame build and its a stress part of the frame that's creaking so at this moment in time I think I just need to except it and enjoy the company it gives me on my lone rides
On a plus note i have the most greased up oil covered new orbea rise on the planet lol.
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I have driven 3000 km per year. creaking appeared and disappeared sporadically. replaced bearings, used loctite 368, lubricated - and squeaking again. I suspected the front damper bolt. Lubrication did not help. Only the silencer was working. Unlikely. but what if?. Sealed with the original service kit and lubricated - so far it's quiet. I don't claim that I found the error 100%, but as I say - it's quiet for now
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Anyone care to translate
Managed it .
I drove 3000 km a year. squeaks appeared and disappeared sporadically. replaced loziska, used loctite 368, lubricated - and again squeak. I suspected the front shock absorber bolt. Lubrication did not help. Only the shock absorber worked. Improbable. but what if?. Sealed with the original service kit and lubricated - so far it is quiet.
I'm not saying I found the error 100%, but as I say - it's quiet so far
My creek isn't under load . If it was it would be a hell of a lot easier to diagnose .
i don't speak english so i used a translator and the translation is distorted. In my case, I also used a stethoscope to identify the location of the squeak. i located the front bolt of the shock or the Fox DPX2 shock itself. I replaced the damper seals and lubricated with components from the original Fox service kit. The annoying sound is gone for now.
Rod B.
Well-known member
That's funny about the lube, but sucks about the noise. It would drive me frickin crazy.Rod, thanks again for your reply. So today i turned the bike upside down and removed the plastic motor guard giving access to mountings.
I have literary covered all moving and non moving parts in the worse substance known to man, ACF 50 via mist spay. This stuff gets into every nook and cranny and will eliminate any squeak for a limited time, even a fixed point between two surfaces on carbon.
I have been able to get the bike to creek in the garage by just sitting on it and moving it side to side with my weight on the pedals, i got the lad to train his ear to where its coming from and i agree with his ear, rear shock front bolt mount.
I removed it ( again) and greased hell out of its mountings and shaft, torqued back up to 6nm .
Quick 10 mile ride to let all that oil soak in and guess what!! Its still there
The creek is audible over the motor and is constant to my peddling .
I'm beginning to think its an inherent creek linked specifically to my carbon frame build and its a stress part of the frame that's creaking so at this moment in time I think I just need to except it and enjoy the company it gives me on my lone rides
On a plus note i have the most greased up oil covered new orbea rise on the planet lol.
Okay here's a suggestion. I would briefly borrow the rear wheel from a buddy's bike and throw it on yours for a quick ride around the block. See if the noise goes away. I once had a noise on a bike that took me forever to identify. I would have bet money it was the bottom bracket. It turned out to be the rear hub. Swap wheels and see what happens.
For shits and giggles, maybe raise the seat post excessively high up, thus pulling all the slack up in the dropper cable. Try pedaling or bouncing on the bike to see if you still are getting the noise. I'm wondering if maybe you have a cable rubbing internally.
You got this....
Its gone guys, quiet as a mouse. thanks for all your help . I sold it last night .
lol. Only kidding. It was the rear shock top mount bolt / fixing . Even though i covered it all in grease . I removed it again and re installed, maybe this time it seated slightly different. What a relief .
I think the poor bike needs a wash / degrease next weekend, every where i look there's a slick of oil and grease
. I sold it last night .lol. Only kidding. It was the rear shock top mount bolt / fixing . Even though i covered it all in grease . I removed it again and re installed, maybe this time it seated slightly different. What a relief .
I think the poor bike needs a wash / degrease next weekend, every where i look there's a slick of oil and grease
Rod B.
Well-known member
That's such good news....Wahoo!Its gone guys, quiet as a mouse. thanks for all your help
lol. Only kidding. It was the rear shock top mount bolt / fixing . Even though i covered it all in grease . I removed it again and re installed, maybe this time it seated slightly different. What a relief .
I think the poor bike needs a wash / degrease next weekend, every where i look there's a slick of oil and grease
Richridesmtb
Member
On my giant trance I couldn't find the source of a weird creaking/groaning sound only under pedalling. Spent heaps of time and some money trying to sort it out. It would go away when the bike was washed and come back again when fully dried out. Only really happens in summer. Drove me nuts.
It turns out to be the XO1 cassette. It still has life left in it, so I have to tolerate it for a while. I'll pull it off and clean and grease the thread and around the mounting ring occasionally. Or just enjoy a quiet bike after a wash and tolerate it the rest of the time. It is funny how it only really bothered me when I didn't know where it was coming from.
It turns out to be the XO1 cassette. It still has life left in it, so I have to tolerate it for a while. I'll pull it off and clean and grease the thread and around the mounting ring occasionally. Or just enjoy a quiet bike after a wash and tolerate it the rest of the time. It is funny how it only really bothered me when I didn't know where it was coming from.
NuckaMan
Member
My Rise has developed annoying creak under load, read through the past posts regarding this. I will be taking it apart this weekend and rebuilding the linkages. Regarding Loctite and the pivot axle. Is the Loctite applied in the middle/smooth section of the axle? Really?
Rod B.
Well-known member
Nuckaman,
Loctite 638 should only be applied to the splines on the upper axle where they mate with the linkage arms. You want to use 638 sparingly, i.e. only a few very small drops and then spread it around with your finger. 638 has a long working time, so you will be able to apply the 638 and set proper pre-load before it cures.
As I’ve mention in past posts, Orbea specifies that the threaded portion of the upper axle face to the right, drive side of the bike. I don’t personally think it matters, however Orbea specifies this. You initially want to apply 638 to the splines on both sides of the axle. However, once applied, I never separate the left, non-drive side linkage arm from the axle. Every time you separate a linkage arm from the axle, it removes a little bit of material and the tolerances become looser. It’s best to avoid this and only remove the right side linkage arm when servicing your Rise.
The older 2020-2022 Rise‘s with their unsealed axles will require an occasional axle lubrication service, i.e. every six to eight months. This is especially so with So. Cal’s flour dirt consistency. It will eventually work its way into where the axle rides upon the frame bearings and may cause creaking. If you frequently wash your bike or expose it to a lot of water crossings, you will likely have to service the axles more frequently.
NuckaMan
Member
Thank you for the details on the service. Even with our overcast and morning moisture, definitely lot of the trails have dried out significantly and the moon dust has returned. Hero dirt was awesome while it lasted!
Rod B.
Well-known member
Yes it was…if you have question on the service, shoot me a message, I’ll help you out.
Be safe,
Rod
Frankyspec
Member
Seems like the 2023 carbon models are having less problems, regarding towards problems with the suspension/ bearings … or it’s maybe to soon to make these conclusions?
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Rod B.
Well-known member
The 2023 Rise has a new rear shock yoke, linkage arm and upper pivot axle design that is different from the older 2020-2022 Rise models. Unlike the 2020-2022 Rises, Orbea also added axle seals to the upper pivot axle to keep debris out.
Hopefully the new design will stop linkage arm/axle slippage and require less maintenance. Wahoo!!!
NuckaMan
Member
Resolved the creak issue following the details in the thread. Thanks to Rod B for all the excellent the info.
I used Loctite 638 as prescribed but wouldn't high-pressure industrial bearing grease provide the same service? I would think a little thicker viscosity grease will stick around a little longer than the 638 stuff. Either Orbea forgot to apply it during assembly or it thins out with time/use/washings because mine seemed to be dry as a bone when I took the linkage assembly apart.
I used Loctite 638 as prescribed but wouldn't high-pressure industrial bearing grease provide the same service? I would think a little thicker viscosity grease will stick around a little longer than the 638 stuff. Either Orbea forgot to apply it during assembly or it thins out with time/use/washings because mine seemed to be dry as a bone when I took the linkage assembly apart.
638 isn't grease, it's Anti-Grease! It's a retaining compound.... Glue effectively.... Used for stopping bearings moving etc...
You haven't put it anywhere other than the splines have you??
Rod B.
Well-known member
Nuckaman,
I'm going to assume by your question that you are asking if grease would work equally as well as Loctite 638 on the splined interface where the linkage arm attached to the upper pivot axle?
When I originally began servicing the upper axle on my Rise, I tried applying grease on the splines. My thought was that the grease would help prevent wear between the linkage arm and upper axle interface. The grease did not help and I believe it actually made it worse. The grease caused a quicker loosening of the linkage arms, which in turn caused even more wear. You want to use some form of bearing retainer compound on the splines and definitely not grease. I once again wish to give credit to Rich. He pointed out to me that Orbea was calling out the need for a bearing retainer compound on the upper axle splined interface.
In regards to upper and lower pivot grease, nothing I used seem to last. At issue is the design of the pivot axles on the 2020-2022 Rise models. The cartridge bearings are sealed, however the upper and lower axles where they ride upon the frame mounted pivot bearings are not. If you live in a dry environment like So Cal., this means the fine powdery dirt will quickly contaminate the bearing grease and dry out the grease around the pivot axles. If you wash your bike a lot or ride in the wetter parts of Europe, the frequent water exposer will erode the grease from around the axle shafts and bearings.
When contemplating the purchase of grease, another consideration is the nature of pivot design. In a normal bearing application, the bearing will spin thousands of revolutions and all ball bearings will receive an equal share of load and wear. Pivot bearings on the other hand will typically rotate only a few degrees. This means that only a few of the cartridge's ball bearings are exposed to wear and repeated high impact shock loads. This repeated hammering will eventually causes the ball bearings and bearing races to develop flat spots and spall, i.e. metal flaking. A damaged bearing will exhibit a "Notchy" i.e. bumpy feeling when you spin it with your fingers.
You want to give your pivot bearings and axles all the love you can, they tend to take a lot of abuse. A grease that is impact rated will resist being pushed out of the bearing or bushing. You want a grease that is extremely waterproof and sticks like glue. Lastly, because we love the areas where we ride, you want a grease that is synthetic and designed so it will not wash out and contaminate the waterways during stream crossings.
I've tried a lot of different greases, i.e. Mobil Special, Lucas Heavy Duty, etc. I've found Schaeffer's 219 Synforce Green to work and last the longest. The stuff sticks like glue and it has very high adhesion/grip even when exposed to water. I use it on all of my bike components, i.e. pedals, headset, shock mount, etc.
SynForce™ Green Waterproof Green | Schaeffer Oil
Schaeffer's Oil SynForce Green Grease is a waterproof, multi-purpose, extreme pressure grease suited for harsh working environments.
www.schaefferoil.com
For those interested, here is the Technical Details and Safety Data Sheet for the grease.
I hope this answers your question.
Be safe,
Rod
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Rob,
Do your tech papers apply to the 2023 linkage?
I'm trying to eliminate some minor creaking noises.
Rod B.
Well-known member
LParker3,
I have yet to work on a 2023 Rise. So I am cautious when I say that much of my linkage papers on servicing bearings and lubricating the pivot axles will apply. The 2023 Rise uses the same bearings as the 2020-2022 Rise models. The basic design of the linkage on the 2023 Rise is the same as the 2020-2022 Rise and other than the upper pivot axle and linkage arm assembly being slightly different, the lubrication areas have not changed. The Rise's upper and lower axles will occasionally require a little bit of lubrication where they ride upon the frame mounted pivot bearings. When the lubrication dries out with time, washings and use, you may begin to experience a slight bit of creaking where the axle rubs on the pivot bearings.
Before ripping the linkage apart however, make sure your creaking noise is not originating from another spot on the bike. As you know, isolating a creaking noise can be very difficult. I like to start with the easy stuff first, i.e. check for a loose headset, or a seat post/saddle clamp that needs lubrication and retightening. A rear hub bearing or freehub bearing can also cause an irritating creak when they start to go bad. The drive side rear hub bearing and two free hub bearings on the rear hub are small and tend to take a beating from the motor's torque. As they begin to go bad, they will begin to make a grinding and creaking noise that will only get worse with time. It's probably not your issue, but just throwing it out there just in case. I like to free spin the wheel and place a fingertip on the chain stay. If I feel any roughness, vibration, of a notchy feeling, then I know a bearing is going out. You should only feel complete smoothness with nothing transmitting into your fingertip. This applies to your front wheel also.
The 2020-2022 Rise models utilize a three piece upper pivot axle and linkage assembly. This created issues with the linkage arms loosening and slipping on the upper pivot axle. This in turn caused excess play in the rear triangle and a creaking noise caused by the upper axle sliding back and forth across the bearings.
The 2023 Rise utilizes a new rear shock yoke, two piece upper pivot axle and linkage assembly, a pre-load cap and a pinch bolt. There's much less chance of the linkage arm slipping on the upper pivot axle. The process of setting pre-load is also much simplified on the 2023 Rise. All you need to do is insert the upper pivot axle assembly into the frame bearings, install the linkage arm, the pre-load cap and lastly, torque the cap to 4Nm. This automatically sets pre-load. You next torque the pinch bolt to 10 Nm to secure everything. I am not aware of any issues with the 2023 upper pivot axle linkage loosening up. I may be wrong on this assumption, owners of the 2023 Rise can confirm or deny if this it true.
The 2023 Rise "Blue Paper" (Owner's Manual) does not call for the use of a Loctite cylindrical retaining compound. Orbea does specify that a blue thread locking compound be used on the threaded portion of the Pre-Load Cap. The process for removing, cleaning, lubrication and installing the linkage on a 2023 will be similar to what I've detailed for the 2020-2022 Rise other than the difference in setting pre-load on the 2023 Rise.
Be Safe,
Rod
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