Question for all EP8 drivers

[steve_sordy]

There is a short steep climb that I come across regularly. Not very high, almost no run up, loose, steep. I used to be able to get up it most of the time on an mtb, but that was 7 years ago. I was unable to get up it on my Focus Jam2 with its e8000. Now I have a Merida eOne-Sixty with an EP8 and 21% more torque. I still can't get up that little hill! I have tried everything that I and my mates know to get up it. Correction; since my last ride I learned on here about dragging the rear brake to stop wheelspin and hence maintain traction, so I will try that. At my last attempt, I even tried leaving my backpack behind, no difference.

But I have just read a post from @Motohawk75 about how disappointed he is with the EP8's performance on short steep climbs vs the Bosch and the Yamaha. At low revs, the Yamaha in Eco was better than the EP8 in Boost!! The EP8 is so much better than the e8000 in every respect (IMO) and I love it. But if its torque delivery is reduced at low revs, then that could be why I'm failing to get up that hill. If true, that is disappointing. (But I'm sort of relieved, if you know what I mean).

Has any other EP8 driver noticed this lack of oomph at low revs?

 

[DJ57UMP]

If anything I'd say my EP8 is too lively at low revs.

I've a EP8 Heckler MX (semi-skimmed) and a E8000 (full-fat) Heckler. I find the semi-skimmed to be a little more skittish than the full-fat. I find the semi-skimmed feels like it blasts up climbs where the full-fat is a slower and steady monster truck.

I guess there are lots of variables, different bikes, same bikes/different setup, different riders, etc-etc. The only way to tell is to grab an analogue bike and see if you can still get up that hill!!!

I also find that as I am now late 40's there are a number of things that I could do 7 years ago that seem like a bit more of a challenge now!

 

[Nato]

I have 5 bikes, two of them with Bosch Gen 4 motors, two with E8000 motors and one with an EP8 motor. As far as I’m concerned the EP8 motor is a heap of shit and not really much better than the E8000, and the Bosch motor leaves them both for dead!
My local loop is 45km with 800 meters of climbing. The E8000 bikes will do it all in Trail, one long hill i can ride up it at 18 km/hr and at the end of the ride I’ll have only just gone down to one bar of battery remaining.
The same loop on the Bosch bikes, I do all of the ride in EMTB, I can ride up that hill at 22 km/hr and by the end of the ride I’ll have 18% battery remainin.
On the EP8 bike to complete that loop, i’ve had to reduce the torque to 78nm reduce how quickly the power kicks in and ride in Eco the whole time. I can only ride up the long hill at 14 km/hr and at about 5km from home I’ll be in the red for battery remaining. I know the shimano motors particularly like a high cadence for efficiency and they get that, but shimano have really missed the mark with the EP8 motor and battery management. It can probably be fixed with software update but I will never buy another bike with an EP8 motor again

 

[Zimmerframe]

Everything you see about he EP8 makes you wonder : When Orbea says they worked with Shimano to make a motor which would perform as required for the EP8 RS - did shimano actually just make the EP8 RS and then over tune that to make the standard EP8 which is why it seems so lacking in power and efficiency in that format, yet seems to work so well in the EP8 RS format.

 

[Rob Rides EMTB]

My cheesy video still holds true of the EP8. Massively underpowered versus the competition in all the EP8 bikes I’ve tested.

Any strangely, worse battery life (about 85% of what I can get out of Bosch)

Huge 2021 eBike Motor Test - I couldn't believe the difference!

 

[Nato]

Everything you see about he EP8 makes you wonder : When Orbea says they worked with Shimano to make a motor which would perform as required for the EP8 RS - did shimano actually just make the EP8 RS and then over tune that to make the standard EP8 which is why it seems so lacking in power and efficiency in that format, yet seems to work so well in the EP8 RS format.

You might be onto something there. The EP8 motor just does not have the punch out of corners or torque to pull it up hills like the Bosch, Brose or Yamaha motors do.

 

[blueglide]

If you have a PCE-02 computer interface device I believe you could really change the torque values in each assist setting. I don't have mine in front of me at the moment but I seem to remember it was highly tunable using the E tube project on a computer and the interface device. Might be worth a look.

 

[Jackware]

Just choose another route Steve and leave that hill alone, you're getting obsessed ?

There is a short steep climb that I come across regularly. Not very high, almost no run up, loose, steep. I used to be able to get up it most of the time on an mtb, but that was 7 years ago. I was unable to get up it on my Focus Jam2 with its e8000. Now I have a Merida eOne-Sixty with an EP8 and 21% more torque. I still can't get up that little hill! I have tried everything that I and my mates know to get up it. Correction; since my last ride I learned on here about dragging the rear brake to stop wheelspin and hence maintain traction, so I will try that. At my last attempt, I even tried leaving my backpack behind, no difference.

That may explain why I am struggling on a certain short steep climb. The motor has plenty of torque and I love it vs the e8000. It just seems that when the revs are low, like when I'm almost stalling on that bastard climb, it runs out of steam. I thought it was me. I seldom use Boost, but when I need it, I bloody well need it. So I have everything set to max, but I still can't get up that last two feet! I used to be able to do that climb on my mtb, but that was 7 years ago when I was Superman.
Thankyou @Motohawk75 you have given me a new excuse to use against my mate who rips the piss out me for being unable to get up the climb.

There is a short steep and loose climb that has so far defeated me. I used to be able to do it 7 years ago on an mtb. But those 7 years have had an effect on me that, so far, the EP8 motor has failed to compensate for. I get within a foot of the top before stalling, meandering or looping out. I know that body position is key and all sorts of other stuff too, but so far I have failed. It is becoming a "thing". I will give his brake dragging technique a try and see what happens because the trail surface is really dry and loose at the moment and spinning out is a problem.

Of course I do Gary, which is why I admitted that it is me that just hasn't made it work yet. I also know from personal experience that changes in suspension set up and small changes in geometry or tyre pressure can make a noticeable difference. By noticeable I mean to get up the climb that had been giving me problems.
I didn't mention it because the thread was about wheel diameter, but I had expected 22% more torque to have propelled me that last two feet to the top of the climb. It didn't, I just looped out! The fault is sure to be entirely mine, I used to get up that climb on an MTB, but that was 7-8 years ago, when I felt like Superman!
It is frustrating and disappointing to be reminded of my advancing decrepitude in such a manner.

 

[RickBullotta]

Nuts on the tank, give it a yank!

With the super slack geometries of many newer bikes, it can be difficult to get enough weight over the front - but consciously try to get up and forward. Don't try to sit on the saddle. You'll get it. Keep at it!

 

[Motohawk75]

My cheesy video still holds true of the EP8. Massively underpowered versus the competition in all the EP8 bikes I’ve tested.

Any strangely, worse battery life (about 85% of what I can get out of Bosch)

Huge 2021 eBike Motor Test - I couldn't believe the difference!

My exact findings, in isolation and if it’s the only Ebike motor you have had the Shimano will feel fine but back to back with Yam or Bosh it’s pretty lame and shocking what a difference there is

 

[JetSetDemo]

I have 4 years on 2 Levo’s and then this year I picked up a new bike with EP8.

The EP8 motor is significantly underpowered and the range is woeful when I compare it to the Brose. I also struggle on rides with my friend on his Bosch to match power or range.

Other than the motor and battery however the new bike is a weapon and an improvement over my 2019 Levo.

 

[steve_sordy]

Just choose another route Steve and leave that hill alone, you're getting obsessed ?

What a compliment, that you are prepared to spend so much time gathering my posts in such a manner. But yes, I am obsessed with the 'effin' thing. I will get up it one day.

 

[steve_sordy]

If you have a PCE-02 computer interface device I believe you could really change the torque values in each assist setting. I don't have mine in front of me at the moment but I seem to remember it was highly tunable using the E tube project on a computer and the interface device. Might be worth a look.

The E-TUBE Project app allows me to change the torque setting in each mode, but it won't go above 85Nm. What I need to be able to do is to change the torque/cadence curve so that more torque appears at lower cadences. Or find a way to keep up my cadence whilst climbing. Maybe dragging the rear brake will allow me to do that? Not tried it yet.

 

[steve_sordy]

If anything I'd say my EP8 is too lively at low revs.

I've a EP8 Heckler MX (semi-skimmed) and a E8000 (full-fat) Heckler. I find the semi-skimmed to be a little more skittish than the full-fat. I find the semi-skimmed feels like it blasts up climbs where the full-fat is a slower and steady monster truck.

I guess there are lots of variables, different bikes, same bikes/different setup, different riders, etc-etc. The only way to tell is to grab an analogue bike and see if you can still get up that hill!!!

I also find that as I am now late 40's there are a number of things that I could do 7 years ago that seem like a bit more of a challenge now!

What is a semi-skimmed EP8?
As for trying an mtb, that is just not a realistic option for me. My knees started with arthritis and that eventually drove me to get an emtb. You are in your late 40's, try adding more than 20 years wear and tear!

 

[steve_sordy]

I have 5 bikes, two of them with Bosch Gen 4 motors, two with E8000 motors and one with an EP8 motor. As far as I’m concerned the EP8 motor is a heap of shit and not really much better than the E8000, and the Bosch motor leaves them both for dead!
My local loop is 45km with 800 meters of climbing. The E8000 bikes will do it all in Trail, one long hill i can ride up it at 18 km/hr and at the end of the ride I’ll have only just gone down to one bar of battery remaining.
The same loop on the Bosch bikes, I do all of the ride in EMTB, I can ride up that hill at 22 km/hr and by the end of the ride I’ll have 18% battery remainin.
On the EP8 bike to complete that loop, i’ve had to reduce the torque to 78nm reduce how quickly the power kicks in and ride in Eco the whole time. I can only ride up the long hill at 14 km/hr and at about 5km from home I’ll be in the red for battery remaining. I know the shimano motors particularly like a high cadence for efficiency and they get that, but shimano have really missed the mark with the EP8 motor and battery management. It can probably be fixed with software update but I will never buy another bike with an EP8 motor again

Have you tried adjusting the motor settings via the E-TUBE Project app? I don't mean to insult you, but I have now met two riders who had no idea that the EP8 could be tuned, or did know but hadn't tried it. So I can't assume that everyone knows about it / has done it.

The range I am getting even allowing for a bigger battery is 50% more than I expected.

 

[steve_sordy]

Nuts on the tank, give it a yank!

With the super slack geometries of many newer bikes, it can be difficult to get enough weight over the front - but consciously try to get up and forward. Don't try to sit on the saddle. You'll get it. Keep at it!

Thanks Rick for the encouragement, ooh yah!

I know that body position is very important. If I get as far forward as I can to maintain steering, I skid out at the back. If I lower the saddle out of the way and drop low (@myapes's successful tactic) then my knees give out. I have tried a half way house, but it seems to be neither one thing nor the other; it hurts my knees and I still don't get up the hill. I am going to try Boost with everything set to maximum, lowest gear (51T) and grind up. That would normally lead to wheelspin, so I will be dragging my rear brake or trying to at least. That should allow me to maintain a faster cadence to keep the power up, whilst controlling the wheelspin. That's the plan anyway!

 

[RustyIron]

I have tried everything that I and my mates know to get up it. Correction; since my last ride I learned on here about dragging the rear brake to stop wheelspin and hence maintain traction, so I will try that.

The problem you're having getting up the hill is a loss of traction? I'll lay out some of my thoughts on climbing when it gets steep, but the first thing you need to do is get rid of the absurd notion that you need to use the brakes to get up the hill. Forget that. It's büłłšhįt. And it's not the motor that's keeping you from getting up the hill. It's the rider. Don't despair. The unlike the motor, the rider can improve.

Let's go back to basics for all bikes, traditional or electric. You're going to need to maintain sufficient rotational speed of your wheels, in order to maintain balance. Riding in granny gear when the trail gets techy and steep is a common mistake. In granny, your speed will be slower, necessitating more effort to maintain balance, and there is a greater tendency for the front wheel to lift. Try maybe 2nd or 3rd gear, depending on your strength. You'll need to get your ass off the saddle and stand up in order to apply sufficient power. If you're too far forward, you'll lose traction in the rear. If you're too far back, you'll lose control in the front. If the hill is truly steep, you can't sit on the saddle at all without tipping backwards. There's a sweet spot for standing, that you'll constantly adjust as you negotiate the difficult climbs. It takes strength, balance, and skill.

eMTB's aren't that much different. All the rules apply. Don't try to come up with anything fancy. A mastery of the basics are what will get you to the top.

It's sounds like you might be thinking the EP8 is insufficiently powered for the hill you're trying to climb. But you're losing traction. Could it be you're putting TOO MUCH power to the rear wheel? I also run an EP8, and I REALLY like riding steep, chunky hills. I found that when my assist level was totally maxed out, it was near impossible to get the amount of control I require. One little bump could result in the motor lurching forward, throwing me off my line or breaking traction. I dialed back the "Assist" level from 10 to 8. I still have full torque, but more input is required from my feet to elicit a response from the motor. And frankly, I very rarely use this profile, because the level of assist is excessive. For all but the most extreme situations, I'll climb it "trail" mode. It's much more controllable.

 

[johnc]

Steve I don’t mean to crow. But last time we were out I went up it on my bike e8000 and then I went up on yours ep8. It took me two attempts on yours only because I used the same settings as mine, boost 3rd gear. I then changed to trail 4th gear and up I went. Sorry but I don’t believe it’s the bike or motor. It’s technique and perhaps because of you knees it’s never going to happen. But that’s no reason to stop trying.

 

[steve_sordy]

The problem you're having getting up the hill is a loss of traction? I'll lay out some of my thoughts on climbing when it gets steep, but the first thing you need to do is get rid of the absurd notion that you need to use the brakes to get up the hill. Forget that. It's büłłšhįt. And it's not the motor that's keeping you from getting up the hill. It's the rider. Don't despair. The unlike the motor, the rider can improve.

Let's go back to basics for all bikes, traditional or electric. You're going to need to maintain sufficient rotational speed of your wheels, in order to maintain balance. Riding in granny gear when the trail gets techy and steep is a common mistake. In granny, your speed will be slower, necessitating more effort to maintain balance, and there is a greater tendency for the front wheel to lift. Try maybe 2nd or 3rd gear, depending on your strength. You'll need to get your ass off the saddle and stand up in order to apply sufficient power. If you're too far forward, you'll lose traction in the rear. If you're too far back, you'll lose control in the front. If the hill is truly steep, you can't sit on the saddle at all without tipping backwards. There's a sweet spot for standing, that you'll constantly adjust as you negotiate the difficult climbs. It takes strength, balance, and skill.

eMTB's aren't that much different. All the rules apply. Don't try to come up with anything fancy. A mastery of the basics are what will get you to the top.

It's sounds like you might be thinking the EP8 is insufficiently powered for the hill you're trying to climb. But you're losing traction. Could it be you're putting TOO MUCH power to the rear wheel? I also run an EP8, and I REALLY like riding steep, chunky hills. I found that when my assist level was totally maxed out, it was near impossible to get the amount of control I require. One little bump could result in the motor lurching forward, throwing me off my line or breaking traction. I dialed back the "Assist" level from 10 to 8. I still have full torque, but more input is required from my feet to elicit a response from the motor. And frankly, I very rarely use this profile, because the level of assist is excessive. For all but the most extreme situations, I'll climb it "trail" mode. It's much more controllable.

Thanks very much for your response @RustyIron it is appreciated, you put some time and thought into it. I know how to get up that hill because I've done it on an mtb, but that was at least 7 years ago. Everything you said about technique I understand, but this time it's not working. I have tried everything I can think of and will try some more things, however non-intuitive. It is not solely loss of traction. Even when I have no traction loss, I just stall near the top. I have tried Trail and Boost, low gears and higher gears, various assistance levels from 7 to 10 and various combinations. I even changed my rear tyre. When I first spotted that this climb could be re-opened (closed by one forest clearance, opened by another), I expected that with the power of my e8000 I would fly straight up it. I was astonished and then dismayed when I failed. It was about that time that I changed bikes and I admit that I had assumed that the extra 21% torque would solve the problem, but it didn't. I get all that about the saddle etc, maintaining steering on the front while keeping traction on the rear, moving your body about, and so forth. But it's just not working for me this time. The key difference is that my knees just cannot transmit the power that is required. I find it difficult to pedal under power when standing up, keeping my centre of gravity low at the same time is just impossible. As @myapes said, it is no reason to stop trying.

 

[steve_sordy]

Steve I don’t mean to crow. But last time we were out I went up it on my bike e8000 and then I went up on yours ep8. It took me two attempts on yours only because I used the same settings as mine, boost 3rd gear. I then changed to trail 4th gear and up I went. Sorry but I don’t believe it’s the bike or motor. It’s technique and perhaps because of you knees it’s never going to happen. But that’s no reason to stop trying.

Its not crowing, although I do admit to a smug smile when your first attempt failed. Only to have it wiped off when your second and successful attempt succeeded!

 

[RustyIron]

it is no reason to stop trying.

Right on. Glorious rides and adoring bike bunnies are for those who never quit.

 

[R120]

I don’t think there is much difference between the EP8 and the E8000, and the Bosch definitely out guns the EP8 very noticeably, especially from a standing start.

I still like the Shimano sytem because to me it feels the most similar to riding a normal bike in terms of pedal inputs, cadences etc.

I think the key to getting the best out of the Shimano sytem is to ride it like a normal bike, and that means being in the right gear.
With the Bosch you can get away with being in the wrong gear a bit more, and I actually find with riding the Bosch you have to adapt a bit.

if I haven’t risen a Gen 4 bike in a while I quite often initially find it too powerful, due to the initial surge of assistance compared to a Shimano.

 

[steve_sordy]

I don’t think there is much difference between the EP8 and the E8000, and the Bosch definitely out guns the EP8 very noticeably, especially from a standing start.

I still like the Shimano sytem because to me it feels the most similar to riding a normal bike in terms of pedal inputs, cadences etc.

I think the key to getting the best out of the Shimano sytem is to ride it like a normal bike, and that means being in the right gear.
With the Bosch you can get away with being in the wrong gear a bit more, and I actually find with riding the Bosch you have to adapt a bit.

if I haven’t risen a Gen 4 bike in a while I quite often initially find it too powerful, due to the initial surge of assistance compared to a Shimano.

I like what you have posted @R120. I agree that the Shimano motors have a very natural feel. It is what first attracted me to the Focus Jam2 as it was the first emtb I rode that had the Shimano motor. I could just ride the bike, changing gear as normal and forget about what mode I was in. It felt like a proper bike but with me ten years younger!
Except that I find a big difference between the e8000 and the EP8. The initial acceleration is noticeable higher. @myapes commented to me the last time we rode that he was having to engage boost on his e8000 to keep up. His bike is chipped to double his speed before cut off, but in the winding stuff that has zero effect. What he was referring to was that I was faster coming out of corners or away from stall points. My 85Nm in Trail was too much for his e8000 's 70Nm until he put it in Boost for a short while to catch up. I can also ride a bit faster above the cut-off speed, despite the sticky tyres. The lower friction motor also contributes to a greater range than the e8000.
As for surging at the start. I had the Assistance Character set to 10/10 and didn't like it at all. After experimentation I settled on 7 for a while, but I have just put it back to level 8 now that I have 200 miles under my belt. When I was on level 8 before, I could feel the bike surging as I was riding along, as though the bike was straining at the leash.

 

[eMullet]

Well, spin the cranks faster if you struggle at low cadence?

Run clipped in and spin that sh*t

 

[steve_sordy]

Well, spin the cranks faster if you struggle at low cadence?

Run clipped in and spin that sh*t

Yeah believe it or not I had thought of that. I have a 12-speed with the 51t rear gear. So I am limited by how fast I can spin. The problem is that when you get close to stalling, your cadence is close to zero. If I could get a run at it, I am 100% certain that I could get up it. I can climb steeper stuff and longer stuff. It is the combo of a very slow speed start, a steep loose climb and my dodgy knees that is defeating me, so far.

Let me be clear I know how to climb steep stuff on an mtb! I have done this climb before, but now due to arthritis, I can't. There is NO WAY I could do this on my old mtb (or even a new one). The challenge to me is how to get up on my emtb. I tried all the usual physical stuff, body position, moving your weight about, drop your wrists, bike set up, suspension set up, leaving my pack behind......... and so on and so on. None of it worked for me (although it used to do so). So now I am relying on the technology, but that hasn't worked SO FAR. I have a few ideas still to try.

My last resort will be to get out my saw and alter the approach angle to enable a higher approach speed, but I feel that would be cheating. Which is why it is my last resort. Not getting up that hill ruins the flow.

 

[geehaw]

Sounds like you've tried different things re mode, gear, body position. Technology can only do so much. Until they come you with Elecronic Anti Skid for ebikes only thing that might hep is motor with high output at lower cadence and they just dont exist. Lower tyre pressures (below 25psi) or different tyres may help. Derestricting the bike to US 32kph, could provide faster run up speed. Given your knee situation, somtimes you just have to admit defeat and be prepared to walk up that section of trail...

 

[flash]

On short steep climbs, or like me when you've ground to a halt half way up a hill (thanks rock strike ), sometimes it helps to use the power switch instead of gears. First pedal stroke or two in eco (I have ECO turned up a bit from factory) then instead of gears go to trail and if needed boost after the wheels are spinning. I also will put my seat half way down. Slammed I tend to loose leg power. Half way works better for me.

Gordon

 

[steve_sordy]

I tried using the mode switch, from trail to boost and looped out! Which to me says that my weight was not far enough forward. So I still have some way to go. Seat low down also doesn't work for me, half way is still too far, but some reduction was a slight improvement, one time. I find that I am also limited to just how many times in one session I can attempt this with any chance of success. Whist @myapes seems to have an endless capacity to be entertained by my efforts, I am more than ready to move on after three goes. I remain confident (ish).

 

[Rusty]

I have found on one particular short climb that hitting it in Tour rather than eMTB or Turbo lets me nail it every time. In eMTB it occasionally breaks loose and Turbo is just too lively.
On another particular climb that is a lot longer but just as steep, I drop my seat about 1 - 11/2 inches and nail it constantly.

 

[Davvee]

You can do it!