Pole Bankrupt

[Suns_PSD]

I am sorry to see such an interesting brand shut down and I always liked Leo's general style and the ideas and design of the bikes.

That said, I've known of exactly 2 Poles personally in my market, and both failed spectacularly, one within an hour. Then I read exactly 2 Pole reviews, in total, both on PB. One of those also broke and the other one just wasn't a very good bike with an uber rigid chassis & used it's travel entirely too easily even though it was a 190mm (I think).

Although Pole was not required to pre-order frames (advantage) from Tiawan and I would have thought this would have saved them in these lean times, I suspect his manufacturing method was not cheap at all. Also, the method didn't create the strongest bike per gram so Pole's have to carry more weight to try and compensate. I think ultimately trying to translate Leo's ideas into a Taiwanese factory and have light/ strong frames delivered for $600/ each would seem to make more sense to me.

Really, Chris Porter's Geometron's have similar ethos, but seem to do everything a fair bit better. The chassis' have the geo, they are very adjustable, they simply don't break, they aren't overly rigid, they have major support from an old brand & they have an appropriate leverage ratio in the rear. I'd really like to see Porter create some e-bike versions of his creations as I think they would be really good.

RIP Pole.

 

[slickrock]

It's important know how bankruptcy laws work in Finland. In the States there's Chapter 11 and Chapter 7. Is this reorganization or liquidation? I really, really, hope is the the former. That way there would still be some semblance of the company that could still exist, whether in its own namesake or some other.

 

[Erkki Perkele]

It's important know how bankruptcy laws work in Finland. In the states there's Chapter 11 and Chapter 7. Is this reorganization or liquidation? I really, really, hope is the the former. That way there would still be some semblance of the company that could still exist, whether in its own namesake or some another.

In finland its a big deal to go bankrupt, could affect the owner for the rest of his life. Probably means the end of pole. So it would seem if nobody is willing to buy the entire company.

 

[Deriuqer]

Very sad News. The bikes were different but really cool.
I wish the best for Leo and all people at Pole.

 

[Al-ec]

Sad to see this. Rumours about Kona circulating as well

 

[ari]

It wont be desirable at all. It will be impossible to get spares when the swingarm fails or the glue joints. As has happened with all previous pole models.

Erkki saatana , pretty sure everything can be fixed ,parts retro fitted , fabricated , frame tig welded etc etc , i think you can soon get exchange motors from the repairer in UK . I have a bike that has zero backup, zero parts availability , iv broken everything , and everything fixed from donor bikes , made, etc etc

 

[The Hodge]

Canyon, YT, Commencal, Fezzari, Intense, Evil, Polygon, Whyte to name a few are direct to consumer brands.

Don't know where you got that idea about Whyte ..but they're definitely not ..

 

[ari]

It's important know how bankruptcy laws work in Finland. In the States there's Chapter 11 and Chapter 7. Is this reorganization or liquidation? I really, really, hope is the the former. That way there would still be some semblance of the company that could still exist, whether in its own namesake or some other.

Haven't lived there for many years , as far as i remember there is a major tax hit , payable in advance when starting a business , don't know how that money is used or what happens with it.

 

[RustyMTB]

Saatana. That sent me off to the internet.

 

[ari]

Saatana. That sent me off to the internet.

View attachment 138891

And "perkele" , actually when things go bad in Finland,eg you go bankrupt etc , you say "perkele, vittu, saatana"

 

[Gavalar]

Any truth to this rumor?

View attachment 138719

It's all over social media,Pinkbike, YouTube, he even announced it through Rob and this channel, IT'S TRUE.

 

[Frankie_r]

Those bikes were too strange (actually horrible for my personal taste) and heavy, I’m sorry for them but no surprised at all.

 

[Plummet]

It wont be desirable at all. It will be impossible to get spares when the swingarm fails or the glue joints. As has happened with all previous pole models.

Yeah, It wont be fun. But not impossible.
7075 isn't easily weldable. My immediate thought process is if there is a delamination issue of swingarms. Drill and bolt the swingarm with button head cap screws. and or bolt/clamp and glue the swing arm back together then carbon wrap it.

Neither option is desirable. But it would make a non-ridable bike ridable again. Your resale would be in the toilet(more than it is right now). But your'd be riding.

 

[Plummet]

The website seems live, but its not possible to checkout. I just tried the process of ordering. they must have closed that recently (yesterday likely)

I dont know the financial situation of the company, the owners, or the investors, but chatted with Leo every couple of months about bikes in general, funny stuff in the world, that kind of stuff, but we would not really speak about financial details of the company (and id not ask out of respect, its not something i would do), but sometimes we spoke about how the bike industry was tough, especially when the demise of CRC happened.

I found out yesterday, Leo messaged me, i had no idea at all, and I got that video with leo's announcement out as soon as possible...

I recently visited the Pole UK hub, made a video, they announced a race team 3 weeks ago and were preparing for the Fort William world cup, signed a new rider only a few weeks ago for the 2024 season and were releasing the Sonni, so from the outside, it was looking good.

My mate got a warranty part shipped from finland only a few days ago.

Sorry to anyone who has ordered recently and faced delays or uncertainty, and sorry to the Pole employees and team.

From the sound of things Leo went to the investors for another cash injection to get through a cash flow pinch and they said NO forcing the insolvency. So I doubt it was his call at all and though they had been struggling for some time as evidenced with their lack of ability to control the manufacturing schedule, i think the insolvency was unexpected for Leo.

Making fully cnc'd bikes in finland wasn't the most economical solution. But it was a point of difference.
Innovators often dont make good business men. I think this is the main issue. They probably needed to be more management from a pragmatic manufacturing standpoint.

In my opinion the sonni release was a big mistake. It watered down there own market added significant cost, jigging, multiple additional options and component requirements and attacked the voima market.

They should have integrated the sonni kinematics into the voima and continued the voima in 200mm with 27.5 and 29 options. That way they didn't water their own market down with self competing offerings and could enjoy greater economies of a scale and reduced component count.

Sad, Very sad indeed.

 

[tlvenn]

In my opinion the sonni release was a big mistake. It watered down there own market added significant cost, jigging, multiple additional options and component requirements and attacked the voima market.

They should have integrated the sonni kinematics into the voima and continued the voima in 200mm with 27.5 and 29 options. That way they didn't water their own market down with self competing offerings and could enjoy greater economies of a scale and reduced component count.

This is so true, this move made zero business sense.

 

[Erkki Perkele]

So there was issues with voima swingarms delaminating, glue issue? And I've also seen oxidation on some voima pics. I thought this was a issue of the past. Could explain why the business was not profitable

 

[Streddaz]

Don't know where you got that idea about Whyte ..but they're definitely not ..

They do have dealers, but you can buy directly from the website, so yes, they are a direct to consumer brand, same as Specialized.

 

[The Hodge]

Nope ..sorry but you've got that wrong ( again) ..you can't get a bike sent directly from Whyte to your door .
This is from the website ..

 

[Streddaz]

Nope ..sorry but you've got that wrong ( again) ..you can't get a bike sent directly from Whyte to your door .
This is from the website ..
View attachment 139010

Ah, but not everywhere.

In the US and other countries you can buy them direct.

_

THE PERFECT BUILD AND FIT Every bike we sell is set-up specifically to fit your specifications. Once you've placed your order, our mechanics will build your bike 100%, making adjustment to the fit and suspension set-up based on information you provide, take a short test ride to bed in the...

www.whyteusa.bike

 

[The Hodge]

A-ha..
I was looking at things from a British perspective where ordering online takes you directly into the dealer network ..
I bow to your superior knowledge ..
Can we call it a draw

 

[Streddaz]

A-ha..
I was looking at things from a British perspective where ordering online takes you directly into the dealer network ..
I bow to your superior knowledge ..
Can we call it a draw

Sounds fine to me!

 

[Plummet]

This is so true, this move made zero business sense.

Yep, and from a cnc manufacturing perspective it made even less sense.
Once you optimize the design, tool path and jigging the time to machine parts remains the same. Where losses occur is between part change and tool changes. You just cant go, we are busy this week, lets machine faster.... Nope. Feeds and speeds are set.

The way to improve output from a cnc machine is long run times on the same part. Every change over to a different component is approximately 2 hours to unload/load jigs and tools and check datums etc. Run 24hrs, through smoko and lunch etc. Set up a machine and run that same part for a week or 2 weeks. Make 1000 swimgarms, not 1 or 10. Just do the maths on set up spread over 1, 10, 100 and 1000 parts.

When you have multiple similar parts watering run volume its just a cluster fuck of tool and jig changes and labour per part sky rockets.

Not to mention stock holding costs of raw material and finished parts double. All that comes out of cash flow and profit unless you have taken out additional loan/funding to cover the increased working capital.

It really wasn't wise business sense.

FYI I was the engineering manager of a manufacturing company with a cnc division, coating division, cutting division.... So I have first hand experience with optimizing manufacturing businesses.

Again, Awesome product very sad outcome.
I hope a phoenix rises out of the ashes and pole continues in some form.

 

[Blownoutrides]

From the sound of things Leo went to the investors for another cash injection to get through a cash flow pinch and they said NO forcing the insolvency. So I doubt it was his call at all and though they had been struggling for some time as evidenced with their lack of ability to control the manufacturing schedule, i think the insolvency was unexpected for Leo.

Making fully cnc'd bikes in finland wasn't the most economical solution. But it was a point of difference.
Innovators often dont make good business men. I think this is the main issue. They probably needed to be more management from a pragmatic manufacturing standpoint.

In my opinion the sonni release was a big mistake. It watered down there own market added significant cost, jigging, multiple additional options and component requirements and attacked the voima market.

They should have integrated the sonni kinematics into the voima and continued the voima in 200mm with 27.5 and 29 options. That way they didn't water their own market down with self competing offerings and could enjoy greater economies of a scale and reduced component count.

Sad, Very sad indeed.

My Voima swingarms crumpled a few months ago. Leo & Pole were super helpful. Took a few months to get the new ones because they had to redesign them, but they were ultimately shipped overnight from Finland to SF once they were finally ready.

The week after they arrived, I saw the bankruptcy news on PB. What a bummer. Thankful I got my swingarms but resale value is definitely in the toilet with the bankruptcy filing.

My under-informed Monday morning quarterback thoughts that aren’t worth toilet paper but I’m writing anyway:

-Pole’s vertical design and production is the way. It’s a shame things didn’t work out.

-Sonni was a miss. Competed with the recently released Voima, had a ballsack for a BB/Motor, and couldn’t fit a water bottle in the front triangle. It doesn’t matter how good it goes it wasn’t the right direction from the company’s standpoint.

-Leo is a great guy and clearly the engineering and concept powerhouse but needs a strong designer on board to steer the ship away from wonky looking designs. If the immediate reaction is that the BB looks like a ballsack, it’s back to the drawing boards if you need to sell the things. Look at We Are One - that frame is amazing and the owner brought on board a young designer and trusted him.

-Pole should have been blazing the territory of standard tubes bonded to CNC lugs. The simplification in production vs. Pole’s clamshell approach is obvious and the bonded tube aesthetic is terrific when paired with beautifully designed lugs. I feel like they missed the boat here and now Atherton is leading the charge.

I can’t help but imagine an Ebike version of Atherton’s enduro rig, maybe with a squared downtube for the battery (and proper chainstay length and seat tube angle per Pole)

Feel terrible for Leo. He’s a design visionary, a stand up guy who was fulfilling warranty requests as the ship went down, and an absolute shredder on the bike.

 

[Plummet]

Sounds like some positive discussions going on at Pole.

Here's an update from Leo

"Hello friends! I want to give you some updates along the way.
We are in active discussions with several potential partners regarding the restructuring of Pole. This process will take time, as we carefully evaluate options and ensure alignment with interested parties. While some parties have expressed interest in the intellectual property, our primary goal is to find a partner who shares our vision for the future of Pole and prioritizes compensating those customers who have not yet received their bikes.
A successful restructuring will involve a streamlined product lineup focused on our core strength: CNC bikes. We envision a refined offering, potentially including a shared-chassis design for both e-bikes and traditional bikes.
Despite the challenges, we are confident in the strength of our technology and the lessons learned from past experiences. While we do not have a definitive timeline, we anticipate that the investment required for a successful restart will be approximately €1.5M."

Lets hope that can rise the pheonix out of the ashes, and keep pole going in some manner.

 

[Erkki Perkele]

More like 5 million is needed

 

[Plummet]

More like 5 million is needed

Yeah, I think $1.5m clears the immediate debt. You are right there will need more working capital to make a going concern again. By the sounds of things Finland aint the best place to do business. Moving it to a country with less restrictions and not frozen for half of the year would help immensly i think.