Over 1700 miles on cassette & chain

[Gary]

Shimano only just started manufacturing their own chains

 

[Gary]

SRAM bought a chain company

 

[steve_sordy]

SRAM bought a chain company

Do you know when that was? There is a world of difference in buying a company that makes bike chain in massive volumes of one kind ie 1/2" pitch bike chain and a chain company that actually has a huge depth of design knowledge. Sram are big enough to be a clever company on many levels, but I suspect that what they are interested in this case might be to put pressure on their existing chain suppliers. It won't hurt that their engineers will get inside the chain research and design knowledge, if indeed there is any to be had. They may have just bought a production company. It would certainly put the wind up their existing chain suppliers!

 

[steve_sordy]

Shimano only just started manufacturing their own chains

based upon everything else they do, I'll bet that Shimano did this after Sram did it.

 

[Gary]

When SRAM bought Sachs/Sedis? '97

I suspect that what they are interested in this case might be to put pressure on their existing chain suppliers. It won't hurt that their engineers will get inside the chain research and design knowledge, if indeed there is any to be had.

You've simply drunk too much cool aid Steve.

All SRAM "redesigned" was the plate profile

 

[Gary]

based upon everything else they do, I'll bet that Shimano did this after Sram did it.

Do I smell Fanboi?

Shimano's first inhouse manufactured chain is the current 12speed XTR SIL-TEC HG chain.
Shimano get KMC to manufacture all other chains to Shimano's precise requirements.

Shimano's business model isn't really like SRAM's in that they do have partnerships but tend not to just BUY other smaller companies and churn out their shite components re-branded.
Eg. DUB

I've zero allegience to either company BTW.
Both make great and not so great products

I've run Sachs (and now SRAM) chains all my life. And they're the brand I'll recommend based on durability, price and function (unless it's for a shimano system where a specific chain is required). I'm not naive enough to think SRAM have revolutionised anything with their 12 speed bicycle chain. They've just written an intentionally vague, pretty little blurb to make you think they have. When in actual fact it's simply a refinement of what was already around.

Interesting as your finding are, from what you've said here, Your chain wear testing doesn't sound anywhere near consistent enough to be meaningful.

 

[steve_sordy]

No Fanboi here. I admit that most of my first bikes were Shimano geared but that was only because they came with the bike. I was very dubious about Sram. And then I bought a bike with not only Sram gearing but brakes as well. I discovered that I preferred the thumb only shifting of Sram. Yes I know that you can use thumb only on Shimano, but its not as good as Sram's. I also infinitely preferred the Sram Matchmaker clamp system to the I-spec of Shimano. I was warned to stay well away from Sram's Guide brakes ("its a re-badged Avid"), but I found them to be consistent, powerful and reliable. I'm all Shimano now and not having any problems either.

I do not confuse the business models of Shimano and Sram for the simple reason that I have no idea what they are. What I observe is that Sram tend to be the innovators and then take a while to sort it out (using their customers to test the products for them?). Whereas Shimano look, observe, test and then launch a product that just works. This means that they come late to market, but have lower warranty costs and maybe a better rep for reliability. None of this is my diligent research, just observation.

Every day is a earning day and I freely admit that I have never heard of Sachs chains. But I'm not lifelong in the industry, just a consumer for 12 years, so I have a lot still to learn.

I already said that my observations are merely what I have noticed from just riding my bikes and not any sort of study for peer review and reputational enhancement. Just interested in what others have noticed too. What should I do for my observations to be meaningful then? In what way is what I have reported any different to what any non lab-based rider would do?

 

[Gary]

As much consistency as possible really
ie. Same bike, same rider, same riding conditions. Same maintenance/cleaning regime. same brand and level chain but one used on a 1x10 the other 1x12.
(I'm not expecting you to actually do this either)

As a general rule Shimano's full new groupset launches generally roll out on a 4 year rotation.
(that's a LOT of groupsets BTW) and occasional additions to groupset components do break this rule.
SRAM "improve" their products every year.

Ever noticed how many brands complete bikes SRAM builds have RS Suspension ?
This is partly why SRAM became so strong in a relatively short time

 

[Jamze]

If you're into this, Google Andy Kerin. All I know is I've always used Sedis/Sachs/SRAM chains and been very happy with their durability.

'It’s commonly thought that chains have become less durable as extra cogs have been added to the rear cassette, but seemingly, that is a misconception. With lessons learned in materials engineering, metal treatments and design, many 11-speed chains improved in durability over 10-speed chains, and it seems the same applies for certain brands of 12-speed chains, too.'

 

[OldBean]

Coo er ...confused of Suuuufuk here !
Should I change my 10 cassette for 11 or 12 if the handlebar controllers allow To get better chain life ?
Maybe the economics are not right.

 

[taxidriver50005]

It seams to me we need to be like Gary for better chain life..I.E MORE PEDDLING in a lower gear (MORE revolutions but less torque on the chain) rather than cruising in a higher gear with less revolutions and higher torque .

 

[steve_sordy]

As much consistency as possible really
ie. Same bike, same rider, same riding conditions. Same maintenance/cleaning regime. same brand and level chain but one used on a 1x10 the other 1x12.
(I'm not expecting you to actually do this either)
....................................

Already done most of it. I ticked most of those boxes, not all I agree. But that level of rigour is only needed when looking for small differences, lets say 10% Oh, let's not be picky 20%! The chain life was varying in the 500 - 650 miles with an average of 550m and I said that it was probably due to what time of year I was riding. Some of it could be type of chain, or even the type of bike; probably in fact. But the variance is still small vs the average. Then I change to 1x12 and 1x11 and suddenly I'm getting 5-6 times more mileage. That is a massive change by any standard. So what could it be? I thought I'd share to see if this was happening to anyone else.

 

[SimiEMTB]

2017 Levo, EX 8 speed cassette/10spd chain. Approx 100 miles a month. So around 3K miles. Getting close now on stretch/ready to replace. Think it’s the thicker chain, heavy duty cassette and letting off during shifting. Have heard of people snapping chains much earlier. Very happy with this setup. For what it’s worth.

 

[SimiEMTB]

2017 Levo, EX 8 speed cassette/10spd chain. Approx 100 miles a month. So around 3K miles. Getting close now on stretch/ready to replace. Think it’s the thicker chain, heavy duty cassette and letting off during shifting. Have heard of people snapping chains much earlier. Very happy with this setup. For what it’s worth.

PS: live ride in very dry climate. Chain almost never wet or muddy. Which helps.

 

[Utah Rider]

I have three Levos now. When my oldest hit 5000 miles/ 8000 km I decided to pull the cassette and chain ring off. It has a 32t Praxis steel chain ring. I laid the old chain ring on the top of the new chain ring and there was no observable wear. I've never had any chain suck on the Praxis 32t chain ring. The rear cassette is a SRAM GX-1150 11sp. It is a long wearing item as well and a perfect match for the SRAM PC-X1 chain. I can pretty much break a KMC chain at will. Don't buy them. I use Maxima chain wax for motorcycle chains. My typical short ride is around 3000 ft elevation gain and long rides up to 6000ft elevation gain with two batteries of course. I stopped using a chain wear gauge a long time ago on my ebikes. Good lube is the key. Cheers

 

[Gary]

I change to 1x12 and 1x11 and suddenly I'm getting 5-6 times more mileage. That is a massive change by any standard. So what could it be?

Dunno. Like I said, there's not enough consistency in your comparisons
but 5-6 times 550miles is about what I get from a 10 speed chain. 11 was no different. I haven't ever run 12 (simply don't need that sort of gearing range plus running costs are astronomical and it's heavier).
TBH I'd be more concerned about why your 9 and 10 speed drivetrains weren't lasting rather than rejoycing about the logevity of your 11 and 12spd parts.

 

[steve_sordy]

Dunno. Like I said, there's not enough consistency in your comparisons
but 5-6 times 550miles is about what I get from a 10 speed chain. 11 was no different. I haven't ever run 12 (simply don't need that sort of gearing range plus running costs are astronomical and it's heavier).
TBH I'd be more concerned about why your 9 and 10 speed drivetrains weren't lasting rather than rejoycing about the logevity of your 11 and 12spd parts.

I would be content with a convincing explanation either way.
But I really doubt that my lack of consistency would overturn 10 years of averaging 550 miles per chain on five different bikes. The amount per chain varied, but it varied more by time of year than by bike or whether it was 9 or 10-speed. Then suddenly I'm getting 5-6 time more. I hadn't been on a chain life course, I hadn't seen the light with respect to shifting with mechanical sympathy (I have always done that), and I hadn't changed my cleaning routine. If anything, in the last 3-4 years I was doing more miles in sandy conditions than before. The only thing that changed that I can pin it down to was going to 1x. But if that was a valid theory, then everyone who switched to 1x would have noticed a chain life increase. But judging by the lack of comment on here, not so much!

I have just thought of another possible explanation. I have mentioned in other threads that I started with knee problems and couldn't get up the steep hills, couldn't keep up with my mates etc. That was what lay behind my purchase of a 1x12-speed bike and the fitting of a 30t ring on the front, followed two years later by the purchase of a 1x11 emtb 18 months ago. Maybe I am putting less power through the crank, therefore less chain wear!
But whilst that may be true for the 12-speed analogue bike, it isn't true for the 11-speed emtb, because of the amplifying power of the motor. With my emtb, I am riding like I was 63 again, when I was Superman.

It would be nice to have a convincing explanation, but I'm just happy to be doing better. More up-time on the bike!

 

[Gary]

You're unlikely to ever get the explination you're after.
550 miles from a 9 or 10 speed system on a normal mtb is a shockingly short lifespan IME

The only thing that changed that I can pin it down to was going to 1x. But if that was a valid theory, then everyone who switched to 1x would have noticed a chain life increase.

No. Not everyone.
How often you shift a front mech. How you use the shifter, How you pedal when shifting at the front, when you shift and what gear combinations you use ALL contribute to different stresses on the chain (and WILL contribute to chain wear rates).
But let's just leave it there now, eh?

 

[steve_sordy]

You're unlikely to ever get the explination you're after.
550 miles from a 9 or 10 speed system on a normal mtb is a shockingly short lifespan IME

No. Not everyone.
How often you shift a front mech. How you use the shifter, How you pedal when shifting at the front, when you shift and what gear combinations you use ALL contribute to different stresses on the chain (and WILL contribute to chain wear rates).
But let's just leave it there now, eh?

I never broke a chain, never broke a mech (front or rear). I'm sure that I must have had the occasional bad shift, but when I did nothing bad happened. As an engineer, I prided myself on my mechanical sympathy. Never changing front and rear at the same time, always backing off the load before shifting etc. Almost never using a total cross hobble (aaarrgghh, sin of sins!) Chain always wiped down and lubed before every ride. And so on and so on. I am not claiming to have nothing to learn in this respect, but I would genuinely like to know what that would be.

I welcome your perspective that 550 miles from a 9 or 10 speed system is shockingly bad. It was normal for me. When I mentioned this at the LBS, the guy that ran the place said that Sherwood Pines was notorious for eating the transmission. He used to race there and said that he could use up a chain in two weekends (or was that one weekend?) Whatever, it made my 550 miles feel like I was doing OK. I never had this discussion before, so it's been really useful.

 

[Gary]

Ever watched "how" a front derrailleur shifts a chain up at low cadence under load? it's really not pretty.
and it's often even worse with a triple, or a double with a large jump between rings

 

[Gary]

FWIW I do think the front mech contributed (in part) to your faster wear rates in the past

 

[steve_sordy]

Ever watched "how" a front derrailleur shifts a chain up at low cadence under load? it's really not pretty.
and it's often even worse with a triple, or a double with a large jump between rings

Yep, its right there beneath me and easy to see. But as I said I try to never shift under load. Its all about looking ahead and getting my timing right. But I was never racing, so I was under no imperative to shift under load.
My triples and doubles were always standard spacing, I never made a "special".

Despite my care in shifting, I can't think of anything else as convincing as dropping the front mech for the increase in chain life.

 

[daju]

Around 3000miles (yes, varies dependeng on conditions)
I change the chainring with each cassette too (£7 chinese Alu NWs)
Chainsuck is something you REALLY do NOT want to happen on a mid drive motor bike

Why Aluminum chainring instead of the more durable steel?
And what is NW, please?

 

[MrBrownstone]

Why Aluminum chainring instead of the more durable steel?
And what is NW, please?

Narrow Wide.

 

[OldBean]

It seams to me we need to be like Gary for better chain life..I.E MORE PEDDLING in a lower gear (MORE revolutions but less torque on the chain) rather than cruising in a higher gear with less revolutions and higher torque .

Was told the same by a bike mechanic I met.......makes sense also on my knees !

 

[Gary]

Why Aluminum chainring instead of the more durable steel?

Because it's £7 instead of £40+ for a steel version.
plus not sure anyone actually makes a 36t steel narrow wide anyway
I would run a steel ring if there were a reasonably priced 36T 104bcd steel narrow wide

 

[ICEE3]

My wife's turbo Como just turned 3500 miles and the chain shows no wear I on the other hand have to change the chain on my Turbo Levo at 1000 miles

 

[Utah Rider]

Bike manufacturers don't make chains so the bike brand is irrelevant. Specialized uses KMC. They don't last long on my Levos and Kenevo . Switch to SRAM, buy two chains and rotate them whenever cleaning.