Over 1700 miles on cassette & chain

[steve_sordy]

I have a Focus Jam2 9.6 NINE. It came with a Shimano SLX 11s cassette and a Shimano chain (don't know which one). To my astonishment I passed 1700 miles recently. On all my old 9 and 10-speed gear I typically got 550 miles out of a chain and used up 3 chains before the cassette was too worn to take a fourth chain.

This 11-speed chain was at 0.4% and the cassette was burred in most gears. The shifting was starting to be delayed, maybe the chain was hanging up on the burrs. I have attached pictures of the cassette old and new for comparison. I have had cassette teeth looking worse than this, but after over 1700 miles, it doesn't owe me anything. Before now I have been known to file off the burrs. That restores shifting but does not extend the life. If anyone wants it they can have it for postage.

Also a pic of the ends of the old and new chain. The chain has 119 links plus the joining magic link. (Which is handy because that is exactly what comes in the box!) So that is why the tape measure on the new one lies up 59.5" with the end of the new chain. The old one looks to be 1/4" longer, hence 0.4% (59.75/59.5) Because it is not as worn as many chains that I have replaced, I have kept it "just in case". I can always throw it away later.

The splined freehub thing is unmarked - never had that happen before! See pic. By the way, what is that thing's proper name? I have been biking for over 12 years I really ought to know this stuff.

 

[OldBean]

Informative pix. Steve.....
2599 miles on my Jam , so far 3 chains ,1 cassette. Regular cleaning and lubing .
Just recently started the occasional “jump” so something is worn...chain is just over +.5. So keeping an eye on it .Dont think thats too bad .. have fun.

 

[steve_sordy]

I wonder if cryofreezing some of our components would get better longevity....... I know it would but is the juice worth the squeeze? Think its about $100 for a freeze and added weeks to get it.

What is the science behind that thinking?

 

[steve_sordy]

Informative pix. Steve.....
2599 miles on my Jam , so far 3 chains ,1 cassette. Regular cleaning and lubing .
Just recently started the occasional “jump” so something is worn...chain is just over +.5. So keeping an eye on it .Dont think thats too bad .. have fun.

Rats!! There was me thinking I'd done well and I have been outdone!
So to get the 50% extra miles out of your first cassette, it cost you two chains, is that right?

Yep, I included the pics because tooth burrs have come up in discussion before, as has measuring chain length. The pic of the splined freehub thingy I included because I thought it was unusual (for me at least).

 

[steve_sordy]

Well that would sure make a mess of Samurai sword!

 

[Paul Mac]

Same here, I have the 12 speed gx cassette and sram chain.
I now have 1500miles on it, haven't changed anything and still works fine!
Mind you today I shortened the chain by one link as it was getting baggy in the smallest gear, all works fine again now ?

 

[OldBean]

Rats!! There was me thinking I'd done well and I have been outdone!
So to get the 50% extra miles out of your first cassette, it cost you two chains, is that right?

Yes or no! correction 4th chain I am now on 2nd chain on the 2nd cassette So looking like 2 chains per cassette. so its approx 12/1300 miles per cassette .(10) speed. ( I am light weight and there are few mountains in Suuuuufuck.)
Cant find the original bill with the details .

Cant wait for my fully automatic belt drive Tuntury or ?????? if I am still alive by the time they are available in full suss
Keep oiling

 

[steve_sordy]

Yes or no! correction 4th chain I am now on 2nd chain on the 2nd cassette So looking like 2 chains per cassette. so its approx 12/1300 miles per cassette .(10) speed. ( I am light weight and there are few mountains in Suuuuufuck.) ...........

So that is 4 chains and two cassettes for 2600 miles (and you will probably do more).

That is 650 miles per chain, 2 chains per cassette, and 1300 miles per cassette. (10-speed)
I used to average 550 miles per chain, 3 chains per cassette, and 1550 miles per cassette (on 9 & 10 speed).
Now I've got 1700 miles on a chain at 0.4% wear (that I may use again), and one worn cassette (on an 11-speed).

MY last analogue bike was a 12-speed and I got just over 1400 miles for 0.25% wear and the cassette looked barely scuffed. @Paul Mac has 1500 miles and still going on his 12-speed. Is there something about the design of 11 and 12-speed chains and gears that is leading to better life?

 

[MrBrownstone]

2300 miles, Still on original cassette, on 3rd chain with less than .50 wear. 1st 2 chains I replaced at .75 wear. I never clean my chains, i just lube sparingly. Enough lube to run smoothly/quietly, not too much as to attract lots of dirt and mud. 11 speed slx drivetrain.

 

[steve_sordy]

2300 miles, Still on original cassette, on 3rd chain with less than .50 wear. 1st 2 chains I replaced at .75 wear. I never clean my chains, i just lube sparingly. Enough lube to run smoothly/quietly, not too much as to attract lots of dirt and mud. 11 speed slx drivetrain.

That is very good, where do you normally ride? If I didn't clean my chain from time to time, I wouldn't make it through the winter, its very sandy where I do most of my miles. Before every ride, I run the chain through an old towel and then lube the chain, leave it a while and then use the towel again.
The cassette I just took off was an SLX. It wasn't totally knackered, but getting there and as I said it doesn't owe me anything at 1700 miles.

 

[Gary]

I'm well over 2300miles on a 10speed deore 11-36 cassette and it's FIRST chain (SRAM PC1030 I think)
I do look after and regularly clean my drivetrain though.

 

[MrBrownstone]

That is very good, where do you normally ride? If I didn't clean my chain from time to time, I wouldn't make it through the winter, its very sandy where I do most of my miles. Before every ride, I run the chain through an old towel and then lube the chain, leave it a while and then use the towel again.
The cassette I just took off was an SLX. It wasn't totally knackered, but getting there and as I said it doesn't owe me anything at 1700 miles.

I ride in Maine. A mix of everything including 4 months of snow cover and spring mud season. When I lube I just put a tiny drop on every chain/pin connection, never drizzling the lube on the chain over the cassette while rotating the cranks. After over 20 years as a bike mechanic and shop manager, the biggest mistake most customers made was using way too much lube on their chains. Once I taught my customers (I held shop maintenance clinics) how to most effectively lube their chains they never needed drivetrain cleans again. I’ve never done one on my own bike in over 30 years of riding and racing. And DONT HOSE YOUR BIKE DOWN is one of my biggest messages haha. Use a watering can if you must give your bike a shower. Bikes don’t like water so why add more to them than what you encounter on the trail??‍

/rant ?

 

[Jamze]

By the way, what is that thing's proper name? I have been biking for over 12 years I really ought to know this stuff.

freehub thing is fine! It's a freehub body ??

 

[Gary]

Is there something about the design of 11 and 12-speed chains and gears that is leading to better life?

No.
more gears SHOULD mean LESS time in each sprocket though

 

[steve_sordy]

No.
more gears SHOULD mean LESS time in each sprocket though
.........

I'm doing a bit better on cassettes that is probably in line with the the 10% or 20% I might expect from having more gears. However, the extra chain life in miles that I was getting was a factor of up to 6x on the 12-speed and a lot more than 3x on the 11-speed. That is way more than the 10% or 20% I might expect.

 

[Gary]

the extra chain life in miles that I was getting was a factor of up to 6x on the 12-speed and a lot more than 3x on the 11-speed.

What?

how exactly are you measuring chain life?

And what brand/model chains are you comparing?

 

[steve_sordy]

What?

how exactly are you measuring chain life?

And what brand/model chains are you comparing?

I measured chain life by the amount of extension as a %. Instead of running them to 0.75% extension I used to run them to 0.65% max in an effort to get more life out of the cassette, not sure it works because a 4th chain won't run. On 9 & 10- speed I got life varying between 500 - 650 miles, but it seemed to depend upon the time of year those miles were clocked up. They averaged about 550 miles. When I last looked, I could find no correlation between 9-speed, 10 speed, Shimano, Sram, or Wipperman. I stayed away from the really cheap chains because they rusted overnight. A typical standard would be SLX or competitive with that. I wasn't studying it at the time, I looked back to see what happened. It was from that look back that I deduced 550m/chain and 3 chains/cassette. The cassettes were SLX or XT standard typically, although I had Sram cassettes too, whatever came on the bike. What I got was what happened, they all seemed similar. As I said I could detect no pattern, could not say that "this" was better than "that".

Then came 11 & 12 speed. These chains were not just lasting a bit longer, but several times longer. The extra chain life impacted the cassette life too.

I bought a bike that had 1x12-speed Whyte T130C RS. With a SRAM XX1 Eagle chain and a SRAM XG-1295 Eagle cassette.
I had over 1400 miles on that chain with 0.25% extension (and same cassette). Would I have got 4200 miles by the time I got to 0.75% extension? I doubt it because things tend to wear more rapidly the longer the chain gets. But I will never know because I sold that bike before I could see how far I had to ride to get to 0.75%. My 6x life forecast was based upon the chain wearing out faster towards the end, so a conservative 6x instead of 7.6x

Now I have the 1x11 Focus. That had an SLX cassette and a Shimano chain, type unknown but it rusted easily so it wouldn't have been an expensive one. The chain got to over 1700 miles at 0.4% extension and the cassette was burred on most of the gears. I have replaced it with a Sram PC 1130 chain and a Shimano XT M8000 cassette. My more than 3x life forecast was based upon actually achieving 3x at 0.4%, so possibly 5x.

While I have been typing this, it occurred to me that the signifying difference between the 11 & 12 speed chains that have done so well and the 9&10 speeds that didn't is that the 11&12 were 1x, the 9&10 were x3 and latterly x2. Just an observation.

In terms of measuring chain extension, the most accurate method I use is to remove the chain and to measure over 100 links with a metal tape measure. I also use a vernier caliper gauge to measure over 5.7" (11 links + 2 roller thicknesses). It is a quick and easy method and you don't even get your hands dirty. If you know how to do it, it is repeatable and accurate, but not as accurate as measuring over 100 links. I use the caliper to quickly monitor how the chain is doing, but I use the 100 link method as the final arbiter to decide when it's time to get rid.

I am retired, I have the time to do this stuff. These are my observations, they may be of interest, this is not a university study. I am interested in what other riders experience.

What has been your experience?

 

[MrBrownstone]

I'm well over 2300miles on a 10speed deore 11-36 cassette and it's FIRST chain (SRAM PC1030 I think)
I do look after and regularly clean my drivetrain though.

You go thru more motors than drivetrains haha?

 

[Gary]

an easier and cleaner method for you would be to just measure the chain on the bike using a 12" steel ruler.
A measuring tape laid next to a full 100 links sounds a bit of a faff to me. (or do you hang the chains?)
measuring while on the bike also has the benefit of the chain being in tension

Did you measure any of the worn chains at the start of their lives (ie. when new and unused) to determine tolerences? Your % worn figures would be more accurate that way. I'd be interested in the results too. It does seem very odd that a 10 speed chain of the same quality would wear faster than an 11 or 12. Eg. SRAM 1030 vs 1130

I don't swap chains at all BTW. I just run the one chain per cassette until it slips and replace both.
I probably pay less for my cassettes than you do for your chains though.

 

[steve_sordy]

an easier and cleaner method for you would be to just measure the chain on the bike using a 12" steel ruler.
A measuring tape laid next to a full 100 links sounds a bit of a faff to me. (or do you hang the chains?)
measuring while on the bike also has the benefit of the chain being in tension

Did you measure any of the worn chains at the start of their lives (ie. when new and unused) to determine tolerences? Your % worn figures would be more accurate that way. I'd be interested in the results too. It does seem very odd that a 10 speed chain of the same quality would wear faster than an 11 or 12. Eg. SRAM 1030 vs 1130

I don't swap chains at all BTW. I just run the one chain per cassette until it slips and replace both.
I probably pay less for my cassettes than you do for your chains though.

I lay the chain out on a flat surface, ie the utility room worktop with newspaper underneath. I stretch the chain out. Every new chain I have measured over 100 links always measures 50". When I measure with a caliper, they vary a bit because I'm also measuring two roller thicknesses and it would appear that roller thicknesses vary by brand. I haven't looked back at that to see which brand and by what.
I too share your view about it being odd that a 10-speed chain would wear faster than an 11 or 12. All I can do is to record what happened. The only theory I have is that they are 1x drives, although I did believe that the 12-speed chains were different because Sram said they were; total redesign etc. Note that the 11-speed is on an emtb, but the 12-speed wasn't. The power of "e" does not seem to have had a bad effect on chain life. Not for me at least.

How many miles do you get out of the "one chain per cassette, run it until it slips" method Does it vary at all? What does it do to your chain ring?

 

[Gary]

Around 3000miles (yes, varies dependeng on conditions)
I change the chainring with each cassette too (£7 chinese Alu NWs)
Chainsuck is something you REALLY do NOT want to happen on a mid drive motor bike

 

[Gary]

The only theory I have is that they are 1x drives

What do you mean?

although I did believe that the 12-speed chains were different because Sram said they were; total redesign etc.

The component parts are still just 2 different plates (inner/outer), rivetted pins and rollers though.

all my 12 speed normal mtb riding buddies wear out their chains to the point of slipping in way less mileage than I wear out 10 speed on my Eeb. Mainly all weather enduro mileage though, while I ride a mix of everything (but also in all weather)

 

[steve_sordy]

What do you mean?

The component parts are still just 2 different plates (inner/outer), rivetted pins and rollers though.

all my 12 speed normal mtb riding buddies wear out their chains to the point of slipping in way less mileage than I wear out 10 speed on my Eeb. Mainly all weather enduro mileage though, while I ride a mix of everything (but also in all weather)

What I mean by 1x drives being a possible explanation vs 2x or 3x is that the chain has to deviate more frequently from straight ahead. I only say possible because it is the only real difference that I can identify as a possible explanation.

Yes the component parts by name and number are the same, but the materials can be weaker or stronger, the surface finishes can be smoother or rougher, the heat treatment can range from none to considerable, the detail shapes can be different too (chamfers on side plates, barrel shaped rollers, there could be more), finally there is the finish (silver, black, gold, mixed, rainbow, ...). Marketing bullshit aside, this is why some chains cost more than others. But in the end what matters to me are smooth transmission, strength, life, rust resistance (I don't always dry the bike immediately after a wet ride), cost.

 

[steve_sordy]

Around 3000miles (yes, varies dependeng on conditions)
I change the chainring with each cassette too (£7 chinese Alu NWs)
Chainsuck is something you REALLY do NOT want to happen on a mid drive motor bike

3000 miles is very good, the method is really working for you. I don't even like chainsuck on a leg powered bike, I shudder to think what would happen at 500% (or whatever max is at medium Boost E8000).

 

[Shy Ted]

Blimey, you’re stretching this thread out longer than your chains!

 

[Gary]

RE: chainsuck
the issue is chainring over run not the motor's max assistance %
with normal cranks you stop pedalling when chainsuck happens and automatically backpedal a touch.
on an Eeb the morot keeps driving the ring round and you CAN'T backpedal it

 

[Gary]

Yes the component parts by name and number are the same, but the materials can be weaker or stronger, the surface finishes can be smoother or rougher, the heat treatment can range from none to considerable, the detail shapes can be different too (chamfers on side plates, barrel shaped rollers, there could be more), finally there is the finish (silver, black, gold, mixed, rainbow, ...).

and you HONESTLY think after all these years Sram suddenly found a massive leap in terms of all those properties?
and it just so happened to coincide with the release of their 12 speed group? and it's ridiculously priced cassettes?

 

[Gary]

What I mean by 1x drives being a possible explanation vs 2x or 3x is that the chain has to deviate more frequently from straight ahead.

Yeah, cross chaining AND front derrailleur shifting DO definitely increase chain pivot slop and wear

 

[steve_sordy]

and you HONESTLY think after all these years Sram suddenly found a massive leap in terms of all those properties?
and it just so happened to coincide with the release of their 12 speed group? and it's ridiculously priced cassettes?

Nope not all of them. And there was no coincidence about it. They decided to start again with chain design as part of the 12-speed launch. Don't forget that chain gets used on more than just bike chain. Huge amounts of research go into chains for power transmission. That research is held by those that specialise in making chains and will be available to Sram and Shimano, for a fee. Chains are widely used in car engines and in the marine environment. I have seen 6" pitch triplex chain fitted on a ship to drive the prop shaft. I can't remember now the power it was transmitting, but in the space available a belt drive sure wouldn't cut it .

As for price, they will charge what people will pay! Simples really. "Ridiculous" is a judgement. I agree with you, which is why I won't be paying it either.

 

[Gary]

none of which are purposely derrailled in order to change gearing