New Categories of e-MTBs?

[Fivetones]

As ever there’s much talk of the ‘quiver bike’ in the analogue MTB world. Some of this is the usual manufacturer hype to drum up sales but XC seems to be emerging out of the pure race area into trail bikes (Longer reach, slacker). Possibly as trail bikes become more capable as enduro-lite.

On the e-MTB side we’re seeing lighter bikes starting to appear, as well as more capable enduro with dual crown etc. The Levo SL release has really started the weight weenying on here which I think shows a desire for folk who use every day trails to compromise slightly to get something that matches the reality of their riding.

I’m not bothered about names for these things (down-country is popular as a daft name ?) as it’s all just mountain biking but as bikes get more expensive and update every 2-3 years, particularly ebikes, are we going to see more categories of e-MTB chasing the holy grail? Or does the addition of a motor make the bikes versatile enough?

Discuss....

 

[R120]

Personally I would like to see some EMTB's that are in the "downcountry" category. My favourite normal mtbs at the moment are the current crop of short travel but slack bikes like the Norco Optic and Whyte T-130.

There are very few decent EMTB's if any like those bikes, with the emtb market seemingly concentrated on the burlier end of things.

For my local riding in the Surrey Hills the short travel but slack bikes are pretty much perfect

 

[Fivetones]

Yes, the NS Synonym TR was a review that I read too that got me thinking. I wish the SL was slacker and longer but also does something like that need 150/140mm travel? Which might be what I’m getting at.

However the new Intense Tazer you posted earlier, the Cannondale Moterra new and the new Lenevo are at the other end with triple clamp forks and weightier builds.

 

[sparrow]

I’m a fan that eMTB are popping up with short stays and longer reach geometry! 140-160 travel, “full power” to the lighter end of the spectrum (SCruz Heckler, Pivot Shuttle, etc) or heavier but “real” trail geometry like KONA Remote 160.
As that’s what is suited to my local trail riding terrain. I’m happy with all the current crop of motor/battery combos. The far end of lightweight and the other of burley aren’t my interest, but are neat to see develop.

 

[miPbiP]

hoping for some more affordable alternatives in the "trail bikes that give you a push" category the SL has started. SL looks the dogs but bit pricey for me at the mo,

Canyon?

 

[Fivetones]

hoping for some more affordable alternatives in the "trail bikes that give you a push" category the SL has started. SL looks the dogs but bit pricey for me at the mo,

Canyon?

For this to open up it needs a few more motor alternatives. The rumoured Shimano EP8 (XT level) is Iikely an E8000 evolution but could there be a lighter, lower power EP9 (XTR level) that suits road, gravel and lightweight trail?

 

[Fivetones]

And what are Forestal up to? I’m super curious about that.

 

[jempezen]

me too...
But we have some information that maybe some of you don't have see.
The "EonDrive" will have 60NM for only 1.95kg

 

[Fivetones]

That’s very interesting. Where did you find that info?

 

[R120]

That’s very interesting. Where did you find that info?

Looks like its written on the motor

 

[Fivetones]

Oh yeah. Doh!

1.95kg/60nm is a Mahle/Specialized beater. I’m hoping for flexible battery arrangements then. Edit: And also a frame/motor/battery only option!

 

[Zimmerframe]

There were a few articles with the info extracted from the motor .. this german one probably had it the clearest :

Wird das Forestal E-MTB bereits im März vorgestellt? - Pedelecs und E-Bikes

 

[Rob Rides EMTB]

Oh yeah. Doh!

1.95kg/60nm is a Mahle/Specialized beater. I’m hoping for flexible battery arrangements then. Edit: And also a frame/motor/battery only option!

Sounds interesting. Would also be interesting to see exactly where it makes that 60Nm torque.

We need to get some industry standards for measuring power output.

No point of it makes 60Nm at 10 rpm then 7Nm at 90rpm.

Same with watts.

Here’s what I worked out with the Mahle motor. What you can see is NM drops off as cadence increases.

 

[R120]

These are the Shimano Official numbers

 

[Rob Rides EMTB]

These are the Shimano Official numbers

View attachment 27152

Looks good, but nothing on there regarding cadence Seems like Rider Torque vs Maximum motor torque.

Cadence is super important as from what I can see we (mostly) use a range of 70-90 cadence in regular pedaling, with short blast over rock gardens etc and other obstacles.

I have heard (in a printed document) but I've not independently verified, that the Fazua has almost total loss of power assistance over 90 rpm, for example. So on paper, Fazua has 60Nm, but in reality at 90 cadence+ is has near zero.

 

[R120]

Yup but its the closet I could find - I was interested in the e7000 figures vs the Mahle motor.

 

[Rob Rides EMTB]

I was interested in the e7000 figures vs the Mahle motor.

I'm almost at the point where I'm not going to trust any figures unless we get to see a torque / watt curve vs cadence. Otherwise NM figures seem to be pretty pointless

 

[R120]

Yup it would be super interesting to get a proper benchmark done - I wander if there is a way of hooking them up to any sort of test rig that already exists?

 

[Rob Rides EMTB]

Yup it would be super interesting to get a proper benchmark done - I wander if there is a way of hooking them up to any sort of test rig that already exists?

From what I can see there's not a standard rig but I'd love to work on one!

Mission Control on Specialized app has all of this data, thats how @PaoloBLEvo can get all the stats via bluetooth. Technically any motor that allows the same connectivity will be able to supply all the details.

NM is a simple calculation from RPM and Watts.

My fear it that we will have motor manufacturers stating NM / Watts numbers to compete on spec sheets... without any real world meaning other than a paper exercise.

 

[R120]

Also it would be interesting to see what the torque/power actually is at the back wheel - I may be taking a massive wrong turn here, but in the car world the output at the motor is one figure, but the real world number at the driven wheels is often significantly less.

I know an EMTB motor is effectively giving its power at the crank, but is the a difference between the lab figure and the real world?

 

[R120]

Is there an indoor trainer that can measure power at the wheels, which you can compare to data from a power meter at the crank?

 

[Gary]

We need to get some industry standards for measuring power output.

If this actually happened it would surely render pretty much every current emtb motor illegal under EU class 1 pedalec laws? no?

 

[Gary]

Is there an indoor trainer that can measure power at the wheels, which you can compare to data from a power meter at the crank?

Yes. and Yes

 

[jempezen]

The manufacturers don't give this information. I have never seen it from specialized, mahle, bosh, yamaha and other.
Maybe with this forum community an independent database could be done...
Rob, do you think the protocol used to provide your graph can be reproduced with the other engines? As "influencer" you could perhaps bring, influence the builders to collaborate. Or maybe we could organize ourselves to create this database.
Can the protocol used with the mahle engine be reproduced with the other engines? If yes, is the material expensive?

 

[R120]

I think that’s where the software comes in, tbh the actual power level are a misnomer, it’s how the software behaves that dominates the riding experience.

For me it would be very interesting to see how the reactive modes like Trail in the Shimano or EMTB Mode on the Bosch actually react to cadence - you can tell from riding them that they provide more support when you put more physical effort in, but not how the effort at a particular cadence is delivered

 

[Rob Rides EMTB]

If this actually happened it would surely render pretty much every current emtb motor illegal under EU class 1 pedalec laws? no?

My understanding is that the law is around a ‘continuous power output’ of no more than 250w

That ‘continuous’ meaning that over a duration of time. I think I read that ‘continuous’ means over a 30 min period.

 

[Fivetones]

I think that’s where the software comes in, tbh the actual power level are a misnomer, it’s how the software behaves that dominates the riding experience.

For me it would be very interesting to see how the reactive modes like Trail in the Shimano or EMTB Mode on the Bosch actually react to cadence - you can tell from riding them that they provide more support when you put more physical effort in, but not how the effort at a particular cadence is delivered

There’s a lot of variables in all this. If the delivery was linear then measurement would be much more meaningful. An objective measure that translates well to the subjective measure of how we like riding the motor is what’s needed. I’m not sure what that might be though.

In terms of newer entrants like Forestal the trick, as Rob points out, is not the 60NM as a headline figure but how the software adapts to the real riding. In theory you could even do something with more than just torque sensors too. I’m not aware of anyone who does that yet.

 

[Gary]

My understanding is that the law is around a of no more than 250w

Yeah.
Which is absolute bullshit. (ie. a fairly obtuse made up parameter)
What I mean is that if say rather than the silly meaningless/lax ‘250w continuous power output’ law we have now, What if the law stipulated that each companies motor actually had to be tested (by the authorities) before being deemed legal? If that were to happen they'd find (as we already know) that most of the current mid mount motors peak a fair bit above 600w and can sustain way more than 250w continuoisly for 30min.
The loophole the motor manufacturers seem to using is that their motors are rated to run at 250w for 30min without overheating. Which is meaningless and has absolutely nothing to do with anything from a public safety or right of access/use POV.
not that the stupid 15.5mph assist limit does either really.

 

[Kingfisher]

Sounds interesting. Would also be interesting to see exactly where it makes that 60Nm torque.

We need to get some industry standards for measuring power output.

you mean like this?
BS EN 15194:2017 - Cycles. Electrically power assisted cycles. EPAC Bicycles

 

[Rob Rides EMTB]

you mean like this?
BS EN 15194:2017 - Cycles. Electrically power assisted cycles. EPAC Bicycles

Thats the standard document that all manufacturers need to adhere too as far as I can see for EPAC regulations to meet the law.

What I’d like is more around advertising standards of motor power.

NM / Watts is what we as consumers use to compare motors. They are not all measured equally.