New Categories of e-MTBs?

[Rob Rides EMTB]

In fact watts are really difficult for manufacturers to advertise. To @Gary point above, they have to be close to the law to avoid regulatory action.

I’d assume that’s why they use figures like max 340% assistance instead of Watts. Seems safer to me to stop eyebrows being raised by regulators.

NM, however, as far as I can see has zero regulation. And this is probably why motor manufacturers are using this in their headline stats / marketing.

 

[Kingfisher]

My understanding is that the law is around a ‘continuous power output’ of no more than 250w

That ‘continuous’ meaning that over a duration of time. I think I read that ‘continuous’ means over a 30 min period.

The law indeed defines a pedelec as

pedal cycles with pedal assistance which are equipped with an auxiliary electric motor having a maximum continuous rated power of less than or equal to 250 W, where the output of the motor is cut off when the cyclist stops pedalling and is otherwise progressively reduced and finally cut off before the vehicle speed reaches 25 km/h;

EUR-Lex - 32013R0168 - EN - EUR-Lex

and defines maximum continuous rated power under article 3 as:

(35)

‘maximum continuous rated power’ means the maximum thirty minutes power at the output shaft of an electric engine as set out in UNECE regulation No 85;

UNECE regulation No 85 states:

5.3. Description of tests for measuring the net power and the maximum 30
minutes power of electric drive trains
The electric drive train shall be equipped as specified in Annex 6 to this
Regulation. The electric drive train shall be supplied from a DC voltage
source with a maximum voltage drop of 5 per cent depending on time and
current (periods of less than 10 seconds excluded). The supply voltage of the
test shall be given by the vehicle manufacturer.
Note: If the battery limits the maximum 30 minutes power, the maximum
30 minutes power of an electric vehicle can be less than the maximum
30 minutes power of the drive train of the vehicle according to this test.

5.3.1. Determination of the net power
5.3.1.1. The motor and its entire equipment assembly must be conditioned at a temperature of 25 °C ± 5 °C for a minimum of two hours.
5.3.1.2. The net power test shall consist of a run at full setting of the power controller.
5.3.1.3. Just before beginning the test, the motor shall be run on the bench for three
minutes delivering a power equal to 80 per cent of the maximum power at the
speed recommended by the manufacturer.
5.3.1.4. Measurements shall be taken at a sufficient number of motor speeds to define
correctly the power curve between zero and the highest motor speed
recommended by the manufacturer. The whole test shall be completed within
5 minutes.

5.3.2. Determination of the maximum 30 minutes power EN L 323/58 Official Journal of the European Union 7.11.2014
5.3.2.1. The motor and its entire equipment assembly must be conditioned at a temperature of 25 °C ± 5 °C for a minimum of four hours.
5.3.2.2. The electric drive train shall run at the bench at a power which is the best estimate of the manufacturer for the maximum 30 minutes power. The speed must be in a speed range, which the net power is greater than 90 per cent of the maximum power as measured in paragraph 5.3.1. This speed shall be recommended by the manufacturer.
5.3.2.3. Speed and power shall be recorded. The power must be in a range of ± 5 per cent of the power value at the start of the test. The maximum 30 minutes power is the average of the power within the 30 minutes period.


art 2 (h)

 

[Kingfisher]

In fact watts are really difficult for manufacturers to advertise. To @Gary point above, they have to be close to the law to avoid regulatory action.

I’d assume that’s why they use figures like max 340% assistance instead of Watts. Seems safer to me to stop eyebrows being raised by regulators.

NM, however, as far as I can see has zero regulation. And this is probably why motor manufacturers are using this in their headline stats / marketing.

i was consulting the retail association when they were drafting the Regulation. Our proposal was : no wattage limit. Speed kills, not power. And there is a physical limit to power: consumption goes up exponentially with power, pretty soon you would need a trailer with batteries. We at least wanted 350W, like in Switzerland. Because that would open the market to utility bikes (riksja, postal,services).

but at that time, the leading bike mftr (Acell) had the most powerful 250w motor on the market, they wanted 250, so we got 250.

 

[Rusty]

When it comes to categories i think there is way too much trying to invent a category for every occasion. Me, I kind of simplify things and without taking into account Trials (which whether bicycle or motorcycle is kind of a red-headed step-child) I break it down into 3 classes:
XC race bikes - short travel with steep angles.
Big Hit bikes - 170 + travel for all the big jumps and downs.
Trail Bikes - everything between the above.

Of course, those categories get broken down into:
Cheap Shit
Fonking Expensive
The rest

 

[boneht]

They've really taken a wrong turn with these measures, if they want to stop bikes going dangerously fast then place a legal limit on the biggest gear ratio. This could be applied to all bikes and would be easy for police to test at the roadside with very basic equipment.

 

[boneht]

Or better still just fix a speed limit specific to bikes like they do for other vehicles. Can you imagine suggesting that caravans have to have a speed limiter fitted?

 

[Fivetones]

Or better still just fix a speed limit specific to bikes like they do for other vehicles. Can you imagine suggesting that caravans have to have a speed limiter fitted?

There are speed limits. Everywhere has them on signs on the side of the roads!

 

[Fivetones]

Back to the topic. It will be interesting to see if we’ll see an electric version of something like the Evil Following (announces yesterday but there are others). One could argue that the Levo SL is sufficiently close to this without the travel limitations however.

First Look: Evil's New Following - Pinkbike

 

[boneht]

There are speed limits. Everywhere has them on signs on the side of the roads!

"specific to bikes" ?

 

[Gary]

Back to the topic. It will be interesting to see if we’ll see an electric version of something like the Evil Following (announces yesterday but there are others). One could argue that the Levo SL is sufficiently close to this without the travel limitations however.

First Look: Evil's New Following - Pinkbike

What?

Where exactly is a motor supposed to go on a single pivot swing arm low shock mount linkage activated frame?

and in what universe is a 4-bar horst link Specialized Levo SL comparable to it?

 

[Gary]

There are speed limits. Everywhere has them on signs on the side of the roads!

and in the UK they do not apply to bicycles.

 

[Fivetones]

What?

Where exactly is a motor supposed to go on a single pivot swing arm low shock mount linkage activated frame?

and in what universe is a 4-bar horst link Specialized Levo SL comparable to it?

I’m not talking about the specific suspension arrangement but more the nature of a low travel trail bike. You can find other examples that might suit a motor.

However, point taken on the actual example of looking at that as a specific.

 

[Timochka69]

This is from Yamaha. And, yes, the torque drops down considerably with high cadence. PW-X2 seems a lot better than older PW-X.

 

[Gary]

I’m not talking about the specific suspension arrangement but more the nature of a low travel trail bike.

What? Like a Canyon Neuron:ON?
They already exist. (plenty other brands also do shorter travel Eebs)

I'm still not seeing your point here at all.

A Levo SL could be reduced in travel very easily if you were set on a super lightweight FS Emtb but (for some bizarre reason) were hung up on it having 10-20mm too much travel.
Thing is. LESS travel doesn't actually improve an Emtb's agility. Geometry, weight and Set-up does.
The agility of my old hardtail (Esentier) was absolutely shite in comparison to my 170mm FS (ESommet).

 

[Fivetones]

I’m interested in the way the bike industry evolves as time goes on. You could argue that it’s a cynical attempt to sell us more stuff but things do change by companies trying something.

I’m assuming the reason this ‘new’ category exists at all is partly the availability of the light forks like the Fox 34 Step Cast in 120mm.

However, you’re the Expert I’d like your thoughts other than no! ?

 

[Gary]

I still have no idea what "new category" you're going on about.
There is no "new category". simply new branding. and possibly new folk to sell shit to.
folk (myself included) have been riding 120mm FS mtbs for almost 3 decades now. My first DH bike in the mid 90s had 125mm rear travel and 100mm front.

 

[Birdlegs]

We are in the first major phase of what is sure to be a much larger market moving forward.
See what Specialized is doing right now?
1. Levo - Trail/AM
2. Kenevo - AM/Enduro
3. SL - Trail/XC

I fully expect the other brands to follow as technology, batteries and motors, become more available and attainable.
You better believe everyone is eyeing the SLs fame right now. That's a new category for sure (along with the ezesty).
Maybe someone will strap a motor to a DH rig next (if the Kenevo isnt already enough).

 

[gwing]

Or better still just fix a speed limit specific to bikes like they do for other vehicles. Can you imagine suggesting that caravans have to have a speed limiter fitted?

That just wouldn't work. The only way speed limits (almost) work for vehicles is that we have to have registration plates and driving licenses so that we can be fined and/or banned when we ignore the limits. For bicycles that need no such licenses and don't have registration plates for the cameras enforcing speed limits would not be practical.