Motor failures: Am I making a mistake buying an eMTB?

[geehaw]

The shimano Steps system has probably been around the longest and used in Merida bikes for quite a few years now. They have tweaked and improved it to the point where it should be fairly reliable. There is also rumor that the new higher power and lighter motor can be retrofitted to current frames when it goes into production which would be a plus.

 

[Roughshod]

The high prices, motor reliability and motor warranty length are what have put me off buying. You can read time and time again on here how useful and perhaps important it is that you have the back up of a good local bike shop.

Given the big savings you can get if you shop around it's hard to justify doing that, however then you become wary of how much hassle you could potentially get with issues. For the price these bikes are it's not worth the risk for my level of income. With all the reports of motor problems (from every type) I'd want the reassurance of at least 5 years at this price point.

So ultimately I'm going to hold off as tech will keep improving and prices will keep falling. Hopefully the motors will become quieter and more reliable going forward. If the money isn't a stretch for you then I would take the plunge, the potential costs having to pay to then also replace a motor down the line is personally really off putting.

I've had my MTB hardtail since 2004 so selling on bikes isn't something I tend to do as the upgrades on the whole haven't been that desirable. I can see improvements in ebikes progressing where I would want to get a newer one and the resale values take a big hit, in no small part I guess due to the motor reliability.

 

[R120]

Buy a Spesh for the best bike and best warranty. If money is no object, why worry ?
All eMtb’s will fail once they drink enough water. If you are going to derestrict it, you are better off with a motorbike.

Why is it the best bike? Its a good bike, but if the spec,geometry and fit aren't right for the rider, or their riding, then its not.

Too many people buy EMTB's based on looks, and forget that any bike purchase should be based of fit and suitability. If the Specilized fits your criteria, then its a good option, but one of many in the current market.

 

[Binhill1]

The high prices, motor reliability and motor warranty length are what have put me off buying. You can read time and time again on here how useful and perhaps important it is that you have the back up of a good local bike shop.

Given the big savings you can get if you shop around it's hard to justify doing that, however then you become wary of how much hassle you could potentially get with issues. For the price these bikes are it's not worth the risk for my level of income. With all the reports of motor problems (from every type) I'd want the reassurance of at least 5 years at this price point.

So ultimately I'm going to hold off as tech will keep improving and prices will keep falling. Hopefully the motors will become quieter and more reliable going forward. If the money isn't a stretch for you then I would take the plunge, the potential costs having to pay to then also replace a motor down the line is personally really off putting.

I've had my MTB hardtail since 2004 so selling on bikes isn't something I tend to do as the upgrades on the whole haven't been that desirable. I can see improvements in ebikes progressing where I would want to get a newer one and the resale values take a big hit, in no small part I guess due to the motor reliability.

Not everyone is lucky to have a reliable and helpful lbs I couldn’t get a specialised in My area and that’s what I wanted . I know people who would only buy local with an ordinary bike and ebikes not big in my area of Scotland

 

[DrStupid]

I have the same bike Giant Trance e+3Pro 2019 model and share the same experience. I bought it because I read good reviews about its Yamaha SyncDrive Pro motor... being one of, if not having the most powerful output in it's day (80Nm of torque). I had to balance the positive or negative features with other personal preference factors:
a) it's noisy, but it's a low growl I could live with, not a high pitched whine (the new 2020 Yamaha motor is apparently quieter).
b) the 2019 motor power peak is biased towards low-cadence, which is how I like it when I ride. Lower cadence along the same land speed means lower wear on bearings, seals, drivetrain I can only guess.
c) it's high torque output means the motor won't need to be pushed close to or past its upper limits often, so it runs cooler well within it's operational zone... possibly less stress for the battery?
d) I knew the motor cuts-in immediately even with the slightest foot pressure over the leading pedal. This was reported as a bad thing by reviewers who like to rest their leading foot that way when waiting around for their riding mates. That was annoying for me too I must admit, until I adapted and changed my habits to not do it. Then I soon found this characteristic to be a useful advantage - when having to get going again after inadvertently stopping or losing balance during an uphill section.

It was only after I bought the bike that I became aware that there were very few reports of failures or problems related to the Yamaha motor. Perhaps the reason for that is all of the points above... or Giant bike owners don't report motor failures much, I really don't know. However, the Giant owners have been vocal enough about three major problems early on - the dreaded rear hub failures, the battery latch/key lock misalignment, and water ingress issue with the control buttons - all relatively easy fixes... but just goes to show that no eBike is exempt from technical woes. In saying that, I haven't ridden my bike in such extreme wet and muddy conditions as described by our fellow eBikers in the UK. I also do not wash my bike with any jet of water. Just low pressure water flow and a soft brush, plus a leaf-blower dry off. So it's hard to know if we are really comparing apples with apples across the different bike brands.

Despite the Giant Reign winning the first eEnduro World Cup Series and the Yamaha SyncDrive Pro motor by the most part proving to be very reliable, I have also noticed that the Giant brand continues to be the underdog. Perhaps Giant is never going to be exotic enough as far as brand association is concerned.

So choosing which eMTB to buy - may involve more than just evaluating technical factors. Aesthetics has a lot to do with it too. For example, I've always said that I would never buy a bike that I can't stand to look at. Just so happen that the Giant Trance E+ looks ok by me personally. If it wasn't... despite the good points about its motor, I may have selected a different bike to purchase. As the saying goes, "if the devil wears Prada..."

Agreed!
I check the motor section of the forum frequently, and if Yamaha has a reliability issue, they hide it very well from folks riding their bikes.

The last reported yamaha problem on this site, in the motor forum, was a broken button in January. Lol.

 

[MB1]

Can only echo what others have said on here. I have an old Yamaha px and a reasonably new (but the older gen) Bosch CX. There different but I like them both (emtb mode on the bosh is a real +), I agree the motor brand is not the most important, they all do much of the same. The Yamaha is now over 5 years old (early adopter) and to be honest the motor and battery are still performing as new. Too soon to say on the Bosch but I have fitted both the mud stop and inner seal advertised on here from new, so we will see!

 

[outerlimits]

Why is it the best bike? Its a good bike, but if the spec,geometry and fit aren't right for the rider, or their riding, then its not.

Too many people buy EMTB's based on looks, and forget that any bike purchase should be based of fit and suitability. If the Specilized fits your criteria, then its a good option, but one of many in the current market.

Because the op said the Spesh spoke to him more ?‍ So out of the 2 he mentioned, then yes, it’s the best bike. But yeah, read into it what you want.

 

[Rostle32]

Not sure if this is the correct thread for this post but here goes.
I’m currently riding a Dec 18 kenevo expert which as a bike as been brill, bar 1 motor replaced ( just noisy) and 1 battery replaced ( green light with a red) , anyhow, I’ve done in the region of 3k miles on it odd snag but nothing that an antique bike wouldn’t have had .
My point is I’m looking for a fresh steed, not sure wot , before mines out of warranty, we all know the bind of buying summat without warranty !
Is there any brand/ scheme, etc that offers an extended warranty to buy at the time of purchase , just like other electronic products?
Cos I don’t want to be looking again in 18 months time at trading up again (and stumping up another £3.5k) just cos the bikes coming to end of warranty / backup.
One of my main reasons for trading up is slightly less weight and more battery range , and I don’t need a full on 180 travel beasty .
I would appreciate some thoughts?

 

[High Rock Ruti]

Why do your posts always commence with your name?

[B]HORSPWR[/B]

I'm so flattered that you noticed, it's a "nickname" from a riding buddy who entered my name on his cell phone based on where we meet, namely High Rock, AKA Needham Town Forest, and I start every post with it because....I'm an insecure wanker, oh wait, that's not what meant to say, I'm not insecure, really, hardly at all!

Warm Regards

High Rock Ruti

 

[Zimmerframe]

[B]HORSPWR[/B]

I'm so flattered that you noticed, it's a "nickname" from a riding buddy who entered my name on his cell phone based on where we meet, namely High Rock, AKA Needham Town Forest, and I start every post with it because....I'm an insecure wanker, oh wait, that's not what meant to say, I'm not insecure, really, hardly at all!

Warm Regards

High Rock Ruti

Well, I guessed wrong .. I thought you had Aussie heritage and only took the ladies to the highest peaks ..

 

[Razz1]

Let me preface this by saying that I've been riding mountain bikes a long time, but recently I had my first eMTB experience with both a Specialized Turbo Levo and a Trek Rail 7.

I've been considering purchasing either an S-Works Turbo Levo or a Trek Rail 9.9.

Money isn't an issue, but what is an issue is the amount of motor failures I keep reading about, particularly with Specialized.

To spend this amount of money on a bike and have the motor failing all the time seems very, very discouraging.

I liked both bikes, but the Specialized spoke to me more. However, everyone I talk to is telling me to avoid Specialized like the plague, since the motors are a terrible design (belt driven) and go bad all the time.

I've heard the most recent Bosch motors are significantly better, so this has me leaning towards the Trek, simply for more reliability.

Can anyone provide any input? It's hard to tell how many people out there are enjoying their eMTBs without motor issues, especially when those people likely rarely chime in online, and instead all we read about is the bad experiences.

I'm wondering if I'm too early to the game, and maybe they simply having had eMTBs for long enough, and therefore haven't worked out all the reliability issues with the motors.

Thanks for any input / advice

Just got my rail 7. First ebike. 125 miles so far.I also worried about motor problems. Seems like not many for Bosch. Runs smooth as can be. Loving it so far. Trying to get used to going up hill faster then down hill.

 

[Loamranger]

Not sure if this is the correct thread for this post but here goes.
I’m currently riding a Dec 18 kenevo expert which as a bike as been brill, bar 1 motor replaced ( just noisy) and 1 battery replaced ( green light with a red) , anyhow, I’ve done in the region of 3k miles on it odd snag but nothing that an antique bike wouldn’t have had .
My point is I’m looking for a fresh steed, not sure wot , before mines out of warranty, we all know the bind of buying summat without warranty !
Is there any brand/ scheme, etc that offers an extended warranty to buy at the time of purchase , just like other electronic products?
Cos I don’t want to be looking again in 18 months time at trading up again (and stumping up another £3.5k) just cos the bikes coming to end of warranty / backup.
One of my main reasons for trading up is slightly less weight and more battery range , and I don’t need a full on 180 travel beasty .
I would appreciate some thoughts?[/QUOTE)

Rostle, I’ve been told that the only motor manufacturer that was offering a rolling two year warranty was Bosch. It would be worth looking into this to find out if this is still the case with some of the brands using that motor. I have also been told by a ebike motor specialist that Bosch has less problems than the others.

I think that one has to accept that ebikes will be more costly to run. The fact that the crankshaft bearings are integral with the motor are always going to make things more expensive to maintain. Also due to the power produced through the drive train, you’re looking at spending more on chain/cassette/ sprocket replacements. Also, I think depreciation costs are higher.

I also think that ebike geometry is too conservative with most brands, there are exceptions like Nicolai and Specialized ( S range sizing). Whyte and Lapierre are quite good depending on your height. Nicolai, Whyte and Lapierre also use the Bosch motor.

Hope you find what you want.

 

[Rostle32]

Cheers for your insight, I’ve been looking at Bosch powered bikes in particular the Whyte, ( with the lifetime bearing warranty too) just need to demo one , also cube action team looks like a cracking bang for buck! ??

 

[Beekeeper]

@Bearing Man , can I ask if the Mud Stopper and crankshaft stoppers are designed to be “fit and forget” items or would you periodically have to remove both of them to clean, regrease etc. Would repeatedly removing them make them looser? What would be your recommendation?

 

[Bearing Man]

@Bearing Man , can I ask if the Mud Stopper and crankshaft stoppers are designed to be “fit and forget” items or would you periodically have to remove both of them to clean, regrease etc. Would repeatedly removing them make them looser? What would be your recommendation?

The seal is a fit and forget item. The MudStop should be removed periodically, cleaned, re-greased and re-fitted. No, it doesn't wear out or become loose.

 

[Bearing Man]

Agreed!
I check the motor section of the forum frequently, and if Yamaha has a reliability issue, they hide it very well from folks riding their bikes.

The last reported yamaha problem on this site, in the motor forum, was a broken button in January. Lol.

View attachment 29583

How many bikes can you name with a Yamaha motor? For the very small quantity on the market, I repair my fair share. Don't get me wrong, they're not bad, but they're no better either.

 

[Beekeeper]

The seal is a fit and forget item. The MudStop should be removed periodically, cleaned, re-greased and re-fitted. No, it doesn't wear out or become loose.

Thanks,
And what is the reason for Bosch supplying 5 of their own standard main bearing seals with the tube of grease? Can’t you just simply clean, grease and reuse the original one? Do the standard ones wear out or disintegrate presumably?

 

[Bearing Man]

Thanks,
And what is the reason for Bosch supplying 5 of their own standard main bearing seals with the tube of grease? Can’t you just simply clean, grease and reuse the original one? Do the standard ones wear out or disintegrate presumably?

Nope! Nothing happens to them, I guess it just saves time cleaning them? Little wasteful if you ask me.

 

[Doomanic]

Useful for the cackhanded out there who can’t remove them without a blowtorch and a chisel.

 

[Beekeeper]

Nope! Nothing happens to them, I guess it just saves time cleaning them? Little wasteful if you ask me.

Thanks. In that case I’ll stick the spare ones on the front my car and pretend it’s an Audi

 

[Bearing Man]

You should stick them all on there and pretend you're an Olympian, then fit a decent MudStop

 

[DrStupid]

How many bikes can you name with a Yamaha motor? For the very small quantity on the market, I repair my fair share. Don't get me wrong, they're not bad, but they're no better either.

Thanks for the info.

I thought with Gaint using Yamaha exclusively, and Haibike with various Yamaha options, the numbers would be nontrivial.

Are your bearing and seal rebuilds available for the pw-x and e8000 yet?

 

[Kaelidoz]

My Yamaha PW is running just fine after 2 years + of heavy usage. I don't even think about the motor or the battery tbh.

 

[Bearing Man]

Thanks for the info.

I thought with Gaint using Yamaha exclusively, and Haibike with various Yamaha options, the numbers would be nontrivial.

Are your bearing and seal rebuilds available for the pw-x and e8000 yet?

It is always a numbers game, if you consider Bosch are fitted to about 20 models and have in excess of 6 million motors out there. Yamaha are fitted to two or three models and may have less than 1 million motors out there, you start to see the picture. Sadly this does not look good for Brose!
We do have the PW-X now, this can be found on my site, and I have just ordered the first bearings for the E8000 but still struggling to source the seals currently.

 

[Bearing Man]

My Yamaha PW is running just fine after 2 years + of heavy usage. I don't even think about the motor or the battery tbh.

A story I hear very often. We must still remember that not all ebike motors fail, no matter who makes them

 

[Kaelidoz]

A story I hear very often. We must still remember that not all ebike motors fail, no matter who makes them

But you have teamed up with VeloLab in Belgium which isn't far from my place, so I'm all good if my motor is fucked .

 

[ScuzzII]

Dont agonise over tech details. I did and wasted 4 weeks.
Bought a Giant Reign EO pro. Best bike Giant sold.
How did I decide ?
Test rode 5 major brands at LBS. In Australia we have limited brands.
They were all great.
You cannot really tell in a day on trails.
In the end, bought the bike that had the best components for the price.
That was a Reign. The 2020 model was marked down from AU $11500 to $8500.
The equivalent Trek ( 9.9) and Spesh was $11500 plus
If you buy from a good LBS, warranty lasts two years.
You will trade to another bike after that.
My approach, dont agonise, you will lose weeks.
Buy one from a big LBS and they can replace in a day or two ( motors included) anything that breaks.

 

[Beekeeper]

Hi @Bearing Man ,
Just wondering what the rubber o ring near the front sprocket does. I see videos of people struggling to remove this. Even seen someone using a razor blade to pick it out ?
Are they easily damaged? And should I buy a few spare ones if I intend to re-grease the main bearing seal / cover on a regular basis?

 

[Bearing Man]

Hi @Bearing Man ,
Just wondering what the rubber o ring near the front sprocket does. I see videos of people struggling to remove this. Even seen someone using a razor blade to pick it out ?
Are they easily damaged? And should I buy a few spare ones if I intend to re-grease the main bearing seal / cover on a regular basis?

It should only be used if the sprocket nut does not fully bottom out on the sprocket splines. I think it acts as a last chance for the nut if it loosens.
If you undo your sprocket nut and the o-ring is damaged, it probably shouldn't be there, or you have the wrong sprocket or sprocket nut!

 

[ScuzzII]

If u buy the 9.7 and then put on aftermarket suspension and brakes , are nt you going up another couple of price categories to a 9.8 or 9.9.
And with motors , why worry , buy the bike you like best . They all get 2 year warranties.
You just need a good lbs