Lighter Riders / Heavier Bikes - Handling Struggles?

[Emailsucks98]

I'm just curious if anyone else has had some similar experiences here....
My 65kg GF has had a series of frustrating crashes in corners. She's riding a Turbo levo comp that's been converted to 27.5" with a 170 fork. Her bike has to be 25kg. She's a strong rider otherwise and does great on steeps and rock rolls. I don't recall her crashing so often when she was on a <18kg "meat bike". I have a hunch she's struggling with the weight of her bike and is "riding from the back seat" in corners, which is causing her front wheel to push.

When is a bike too heavy in relation to the rider? Would she crash less on a lighter bike?

 

[gmoss]

I don't think weight is necessarily the issue. Thinking about a motorcycle, this doesn't seem to apply. My reference is my son going from an 85 to a full sized 150 2 stroke. Weight could play a role in technique, but my thought is susp. Sounds like you may be able to make some clicker adjustments, and/or air pressure adjsutments to allow for better weight transfer. See if you can find a spot she is having difficulty and watch/film her going thru it. This may help you identify what is happening.

Also, when I got my ebike, it would not go thru a corner for anything. I was pushing the front end and sliding around. It wasn't until I got my stuff on it that it handled as it should. Now that I have it set up with my stuff, it handles the same as my normal bike.

 

[michael_bc]

A 20 kg bike is definitely easier to throw around tight corners than a 25 kg bike.

When I look at my friends, the heavier the bike, the more they struggle with tight corners on Alpine single track.

 

[Emailsucks98]

See if you can find a spot she is having difficulty and watch/film her going thru it. This may help you identify what is happening.

That is a great suggestion. There's an off-camber sweeping DH corner that has been a repeat offender- requires steering with the hips, not the bars.

I knew my post was sort of, thinking out loud... and that most riders can adapt to lighter/heavier bikes.

If it was me, for sure I'd want a lighter bike- at her weight she never uses more than half the battery anyways. But obviously technique is the less expensive answer

 

[irie]

That is a great suggestion. There's an off-camber sweeping DH corner that has been a repeat offender- requires steering with the hips, not the bars.

I knew my post was sort of, thinking out loud... and that most riders can adapt to lighter/heavier bikes.

If it was me, for sure I'd want a lighter bike- at her weight she never uses more than half the battery anyways. But obviously technique is the less expensive answer

Or she could go from 65kg to 75kg?

At 65kg will have neither the body weight nor the muscle tissue to manhandle a 26kg bike. Needs a 20kg (or less) bike.

 

[arTNC]

I don't think weight is necessarily the issue. Thinking about a motorcycle, this doesn't seem to apply. My reference is my son going from an 85 to a full sized 150 2 stroke. Weight could play a role in technique, but my thought is susp. Sounds like you may be able to make some clicker adjustments, and/or air pressure adjsutments to allow for better weight transfer. See if you can find a spot she is having difficulty and watch/film her going thru it. This may help you identify what is happening.

Also, when I got my ebike, it would not go thru a corner for anything. I was pushing the front end and sliding around. It wasn't until I got my stuff on it that it handled as it should. Now that I have it set up with my stuff, it handles the same as my normal bike.

Man, you stole my response...LOL! I definitely agree that it's not so much the weight as it is technique, familiarity with the bike, and the bike really, really set up for the rider. The OP's comment about "riding from the back" sounds likely too.

gmoss, your comparison to dirt motorcycles points out how weight within reason isn't the negative in handling a bike...motorcycle or emtb...again, within reason. In fact I'd contend the additional weight of our emtb's is usually more advantageous than not...being more stable and less twitchy.

OP, maybe the added speed in most conditions is the cause for her riding further back. I've seen it on emtb's and dirt motorcycles occasionally. It shows itself in a kind of psychological reaction to push away from the handlebar as things get spicy. Something like she was comfortable and confident at the speeds of a pedal-only bike, whereas just a little more power and speed on the emtb is a bit intimidating until you really gel with it.

And as gmoss points out, it's critical to set up the suspension and ergos to really fit her...especially at her weight and size.

 

[Montana St Alum]

When the conversion was done, did the bar height increase relative to the seat height for her? If so, that could take weight off the front. It sounds as though the front tire is not gripping in the turns. I suppose you could put a REALLY grippy tire up front to help.
Something like a DHF requires some nice lean to engage the side knobs while an Assegai can engage at more vertical angles. Going with a super soft grippy compound wouldn't hurt.

 

[Emailsucks98]

Thanks all. She's got a maxxgrip assegai up front, 20psi, 30% sag both ends, and has been riding the bike in this configuration for a year+. Nothing else weird set-up wise. She rides blacks weekly, but will have one of these crashes on a blue trail- frustrating. The crashes have not been on particularly fast or steep stuff (by her own standards), but it is always corners. She often goes OTB rather than getting dumped, which says to me she's turning the bars with her weight back, when she could be forward & leaning in (not turning the bars much).

The camera work really is a good suggestion, once she's healed up from the last incident.

I do think the weight of the bike is not actually the issue, but it's distracting her from improving her cornering skills.

 

[Mikerb]

I dont think bike weight is an issue......technique and cockpit set up are far more likely causes of her issue. The fact she tackles downhill blacks well suggests she is fine bringing her weight over the back of the bike.............the fact she crashes on mild downhill bends..going OTB.....suggests she is still in her comfort position on the back of the bike....the front wheel has little or no weight on it so either washes out or tucks, and she OTBs. I think she either has to learn to use the bike as it is by leaning forward more or at least staying more central.............or the cockpit design has to change to put more of her weight over the bars, even if she stays in a more central position. I suggest trying setting the bars lower on the headtube and/or fitting lower rise bars. The fork may also need to be tuned if it is too plush and sitting too low in its stroke.

 

[gmoss]

Be curious to what you find out once you guys are able to get back on trail. Hope she heals up fast.

 

[Jeff McD]

Repeated OTB falls suggest weakness of the shoulder muscles from prior OTB'S that has not been fixed with adequate PT followed by weight lifting in the gym three days a week for at least a year to re-strengthen the shoulder girdle muscles. What happens is that the elbows/shoulders simply give way and fold up leading to future OTB falls even with mild impacts. Recovery of shoulder strength anteriorly/posteriorly and nerve retraining with the gym work recovers strong arms that can resist the impact at the bottom of a turn preventing OTB.
That was my answer for my condition after pretty serious shoulder injuries. Recovery of the strength is quite noticeable once you get it, but you don't realize you've lost it until you get it back, and that's the problem. Do need to start with mild PT exercises and then continue in the gym with heavier weights to recover the strength. Stretching as well is important.
Planet fitness gyms are cheapest in my area and the investment would be well worth it after a year.

 

[Tony4wd]

Repeated OTB falls suggests one should ride a little more slowly

 

[mustclime]

Interested in how you converted the bike to 27.5? Head set to ground on a 29er wheel and a 29er fork 170mm is 960mm ish. You just change the 27.5 wheel and leave the 29er fork, it’s 945mm ish. If you used a 170 mm 27.5 fork with a 27.5 wheel, it’s 925 mm ish. If you changed the wheel and fork to 27.5, you added more than a degree to the head angle. With a 27.5 front wheel, you don’t have the rollover of a 29er and you have less rubber on the trail. My fix for this is a converted my Kenevo to 27.5 plus. I run 40 mm iw rims and 27.5x 2.8 tires. A 2.8x27.5 tire on a wide rim has a larger contact patch than a 29 er…. But the 29er will be faster and have better roll over….i ride a lot of rock fields and the fatish tires are much better than thin 29er’s.

 

[Emailsucks98]

Interested in how you converted the bike to 27.5?

She was on a 27.5" transition patrol previously, so the goal was to knock a degree off the stock angles on the Levo, lower it and go 27.5". Fork is a 27.5 170mm Marzocchi Z1. Flip chip in high. Bike also got minions and a 180mm dropper. Stock shock blew up so it got a marzocchi bomber air. The bike rides quite nice, I think- though tuning suspension for someone else is always challenging beyond setting sag. When not crashing it's a lot of fun!

 

[RustyIron]

My 65kg GF has had a series of frustrating crashes in corners.

When is a bike too heavy in relation to the rider? Would she crash less on a lighter bike?

There are plenty of petite ladies who shred on full-size bikes--faster than I'll ever be.
Could your lady ride better on a smaller bike? I don't know.
Is it possible for a light person to learn to ride a heavy bike? Yes.

 

[mustclime]

She was on a 27.5" transition patrol previously, so the goal was to knock a degree off the stock angles on the Levo, lower it and go 27.5". Fork is a 27.5 170mm Marzocchi Z1. Flip chip in high. Bike also got minions and a 180mm dropper. Stock shock blew up so it got a marzocchi bomber air. The bike rides quite nice, I think- though tuning suspension for someone else is always challenging beyond setting sag. When not crashing it's a lot of fun!

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You have dropped the front of the bike by around 40mm and made the front end steeper. If she is going over the bars it sounds like you have gone to steep. My guess she is also getting a lot of peddle strikes because the bb is lower as well. The old Transition Patrol had a head angle of 64 degrees. The stock Levo is like 64.5 degrees….. my guess is her bike has an head angle of 65.5-66 degrees now. Sounds like you are trying to kill off your girlfriend…… very bold

 

[Emailsucks98]

You have dropped the front of the bike by around 40mm and made the front end steeper.

Wrong bike, wrong math. Her's was a 2019 Turbo Levo, which stock had a 66d head angle with 29" & 150mm F&R. Going 27.5" F&R dropped both ends equally, we added 30mm to the fork length which knocked 1.5d off the head angle. BB landed at 13.25". And she is 174cm tall, on a M frame.

 

[RickBullotta]

I'm just curious if anyone else has had some similar experiences here....
My 65kg GF has had a series of frustrating crashes in corners. She's riding a Turbo levo comp that's been converted to 27.5" with a 170 fork. Her bike has to be 25kg. She's a strong rider otherwise and does great on steeps and rock rolls. I don't recall her crashing so often when she was on a <18kg "meat bike". I have a hunch she's struggling with the weight of her bike and is "riding from the back seat" in corners, which is causing her front wheel to push.

When is a bike too heavy in relation to the rider? Would she crash less on a lighter bike?

Put a big, soft tire up front to help counteract the natural understeer of an eMTB, and get her comfortable weighting the front end more. Cut down the bar width significantly (to 700 or so). Also, try taking 5 psi out of the fork. Lastly, make sure she' s not running the bike in Turbo and back down the assist level since she's lighter.

 

[irie]

Put a big, soft tire up front to help counteract the natural understeer of an eMTB, and get her comfortable weighting the front end more. Cut down the bar width significantly (to 700 or so). Also, try taking 5 psi out of the fork. Lastly, make sure she' s not running the bike in Turbo and back down the assist level since she's lighter.

@Emailsucks98 Good points there. Perhaps try turning the motor off and see if she has the same problem?

 

[mustclime]

Wrong bike, wrong math. Her's was a 2019 Turbo Levo, which stock had a 66d head angle with 29" & 150mm F&R. Going 27.5" F&R dropped both ends equally, we added 30mm to the fork length which knocked 1.5d off the head angle. BB landed at 13.25". And she is 174cm tall, on a M frame.

Thanks for the thoughts, I think we're done here.

Maybe next time take the time to give all the info on the bike. 13.25” bb hight is ok for road bikes but stupid for trail bikes. If you dropped 1.5 degrees off head angle, you did the same to the seat tube angle. Depending on the frame size ( another thing not given)the bike has around a 73 degree seat tube angle. My old 1988 Mtb had that seat tube angle. That bike is a train wreck. You would have been better off with a mullet and a 160mm 29er fork. That way you have the roll over and contact patch of a 29er and the slacker head angles But a little higher bb hight.

 

[rod9301]

Or she could go from 65kg to 75kg?

At 65kg will have neither the body weight nor the muscle tissue to manhandle a 26kg bike. Needs a 20kg (or less) bike.

Don't agree. My wife is 65kg, no issues with a 25kg bike

 

[Emailsucks98]

Perhaps try turning the motor off and see if she has the same problem?

She's got a pretty sweet v3 Banshee Rune as well, but it doesn't get as much use. The crashes have typically been on mellow DH corners where she's not pedaling, but it's something I'll keep an eye on.

Maybe next time take the time to give all the info on the bike.

My question was about rider/bike weight, never about geometry. 13.25" BB for a 150mm rear is great here. Bellingham is not new jersey. Her bike's been loaned out to several solid riders, the geometry is fine. STA is definitely not causing her crashes.

Honestly if I was her, I'd move to another bike (likely a Relay or Heckler SL) but a new bike won't solve technique.

 

[Pyr0]

Don't agree. My wife is 65kg, no issues with a 25kg bike

Yeah, not sure I agree either. I only weigh 66-67kg and I'm simliar height, riding a medium frame as a mullet. My bike might be a bit lighter tho.
I've been over the bars a couple of times, but only due to my own carelessness or "obstacles" suddenly moving into my path

 

[irie]

She's got a pretty sweet v3 Banshee Rune as well, but it doesn't get as much use. The crashes have typically been on mellow DH corners where she's not pedaling, but it's something I'll keep an eye on.

My question was about rider/bike weight, never about geometry. 13.25" BB for a 150mm rear is great here. Bellingham is not new jersey. Her bike's been loaned out to several solid riders, the geometry is fine. STA is definitely not causing her crashes.

Honestly if I was her, I'd move to another bike (likely a Relay or Heckler SL) but a new bike won't solve technique.

Using motor assistance while going DH is a recipe for overrunning corners and going OTB. Don't ask me how I know, OK?

 

[Plummet]

I have 3 thoughts.

1) Calibration between mtb and E. How often does she ride the mtb? The E will require more aggressive handling of the bike to get it cornering. So.... if she does a lot of mtb and some E it could be she isnt recalibrating to the weight change and trying to corner like and mtb. Is she understeering and running wide on the corner?

This happens to me in the opposite direction. If I spend a week or two on the E then jump back on the mtb it takes me an hour or so to recalibrate. After aggressively working the E, if I do that on the mtb I literally wrench the the bike off the track and crash. I need to engage more finesse on the mtb compared to the E.

Maybe your missis riding the E like she riders her mtb and not being aggressive enough.

2) There's some geo weirdness with the full 27.5 confusion. Personally i'd look at mulleting it. I see little point converting a 29er to full 27.5.

3) Pedal strike with low bb. Running on from point 2. The BB is too low in 27.5 mode I wonder if she is pedal striking in those cornes. Again. Mullet that bike, get the bb higher.

 

[Emailsucks98]

I have 3 thoughts.

1) Calibration between mtb and E. How often does she ride the mtb? The E will require more aggressive handling of the bike to get it cornering. So.... if she does a lot of mtb and some E it could be she isnt recalibrating to the weight change and trying to corner like and mtb. Is she understeering and running wide on the corner?

This happens to me in the opposite direction. If I spend a week or two on the E then jump back on the mtb it takes me an hour or so to recalibrate. After aggressively working the E, if I do that on the mtb I literally wrench the the bike off the track and crash. I need to engage more finesse on the mtb compared to the E.

Maybe your missis riding the E like she riders her mtb and not being aggressive enough.

2) There's some geo weirdness with the full 27.5 confusion. Personally i'd look at mulleting it. I see little point converting a 29er to full 27.5.

3) Pedal strike with low bb. Running on from point 2. The BB is too low in 27.5 mode I wonder if she is pedal striking in those cornes. Again. Mullet that bike, get the bb higher.

Yeah good thoughts. She's probably 90% riding the eBike.

1) I have been encouraging her to ride her Rune more often, since I think it will help her technique, plus we do a lot of social rides where she's the only one on an eBike. I am 50/50 myself.

2) She didn't like 29" at all in 2019 and didn't want to go mullet then. At this point, if we spend more than $500 I'll encourage her to just get a new ride which would be a mullet. Her wheels and brakes are pretty clapped out. Side note: I go back& forth between full 27.5", mullet and full 29". I find the change in rear wheel is a lot more noticeable than front. At least here- mostly steep & smooth trails.

3) Pedal strikes aren't it. We don't have ledgy terrain, and the rock is smooth. We do have steeeeeps and smooth rock rolls where low BB's are good.

There is one corner that's taken her out twice. It's an off-camber sweeper, but appears that her front wheel is tucking under - yet she's not using full travel. So I think she is turning the bars with her weight too far back, instead of steering with her hips. I think this may be a reaction to the heavier bike weight, hence my initial question. But could also be motor over-run. Either way, I think filming & coaching with her on the Rune should sort it out.

 

[Plummet]

Yeah good thoughts. She's probably 90% riding the eBike.

1) I have been encouraging her to ride her Rune more often, since I think it will help her technique, plus we do a lot of social rides where she's the only one on an eBike. I am 50/50 myself.

2) She didn't like 29" at all in 2019 and didn't want to go mullet then. At this point, if we spend more than $500 I'll encourage her to just get a new ride which would be a mullet. Her wheels and brakes are pretty clapped out. Side note: I go back& forth between full 27.5", mullet and full 29". I find the change in rear wheel is a lot more noticeable than front. At least here- mostly steep & smooth trails.

3) Pedal strikes aren't it. We don't have ledgy terrain, and the rock is smooth. We do have steeeeeps and smooth rock rolls where low BB's are good.

There is one corner that's taken her out twice. It's an off-camber sweeper, but appears that her front wheel is tucking under - yet she's not using full travel. So I think she is turning the bars with her weight too far back, instead of steering with her hips. I think this may be a reaction to the heavier bike weight, hence my initial question. But could also be motor over-run. Either way, I think filming & coaching with her on the Rune should sort it out.

Could also be some demons on that corner for her and she is stiffening up and fighting the bike. It might. Be simply over coming the mental crash demon. Particularly if she is good elsewhere.

Go session that corner. Try different lines, ride it until she has it dialed.

 

[Plummet]

Also, What front tire pressure is she running? An over inflated tire for her weight might not help either.
Applying the brakes is a big no, no for off camber. Make sure she isn't stabbing on the brakes at weird times or at all in the corner. Set up for the corner, go in slower, no brakes and hold.

 

[GolfChick]

Repeated OTB falls suggests one should ride a little more slowly

If one never falls off then one’s not riding hard enough!

Initially my gut reaction was yes the bike is too heavy but if the issues are in slower sweeping corners rather tight nadgery steep corners then that more implies that it’s technique/setup which is causing the persistent issues. I’d definitely agree with the filming to analyse what’s being done like feet in the right position, weight correct/find some perfect corners to session if that’s a weakness.

 

[RickBullotta]

Also, What front tire pressure is she running? An over inflated tire for her weight might not help either.
Applying the brakes is a big no, no for off camber. Make sure she isn't stabbing on the brakes at weird times or at all in the corner. Set up for the corner, go in slower, no brakes and hold.

Sometimes I use a TON of front brake to pull a stoppie and pop the rear wheel around (or a ton of rear brake to slide the rear around - but don't tell anyone). Squaring off a turn that way can be the best option at times.