Levo Gen 4 Levo Gen 4 Rumours and some facts...

[gbcoke]

In the end, it's a bike, not a spaceship.
There is the e system where DJI (and Bosch in some way) are leading the way on what should a modern system look like . I don't see Spec eclipsing the Avinox (integration,power,weight,fast charge...) maybe making something similar.
Then there is the bike itself that needs to ride well with good geo and suspension (not hard to improve on gen3 suspension) and be reliable and look good.

I'm sure the gen4 will be a top performing featured packed ebike, just not sure it will be better than some of the current and future offerings from other manufacturers.

 

[AussieRuss]

In the end, it's a bike, not a spaceship.
There is the e system where DJI (and Bosch in some way) are leading the way on what should a modern system look like . I don't see Spec eclipsing the Avinox (integration,power,weight,fast charge...) maybe making something similar.
Then there is the bike itself that needs to ride well with good geo and suspension (not hard to improve on gen3 suspension) and be reliable and look good.

I'm sure the gen4 will be a top performing featured packed ebike, just not sure it will be better than some of the current and future offerings from other manufacturers.

All the big players are still stuck on the 36 bolt systems for full fats. This includes DJI.

Watch this space for a new full fat 48volt system that everyone will then move to in the coming years.

Again Specialized will be innovator.

 

[DuncanDoughnuts]

All the big players are still stuck on the 36 bolt systems for full fats. This includes DJI.

Watch this space for a new full fat 48volt system that everyone will then move to in the coming years.

Again Specialized will be innovator.

Tell me if I’m wrong.
But is the SL not a 48v ?
And I heard report that it looses power when the voltage gets below a certain point…. And I’m not talking about below 10% but when it gets to like 20%.
I have never ridden one so curious if this is true and if this is a problem with 48v systems ?

 

[Dax]

Tell me if I’m wrong.
But is the SL not a 48v ?
And I heard report that it looses power when the voltage gets below a certain point…. And I’m not talking about below 10% but when it gets to like 20%.
I have never ridden one so curious if this is true and if this is a problem with 48v systems ?

Every system throttles power as the batteries go flat.

 

[gbcoke]

But there's a difference if it happens at 20% or 5%

 

[Dax]

But there's a difference if it happens at 20% or 5%

Most start throttling at 20% and ramp up so it’s very noticeable at 5%.

It might be more noticeable on the SL as the battery is much smaller to start with. That said I’ve never found it bad on my SL.

 

[Luison]

Maybe some semisolid state batteries with energy density of 350wh/kg . Nio car manufacturer os building cars with them already

 

[emtbeast]

Tell me if I’m wrong.
But is the SL not a 48v ?
And I heard report that it looses power when the voltage gets below a certain point…. And I’m not talking about below 10% but when it gets to like 20%.
I have never ridden one so curious if this is true and if this is a problem with 48v systems ?

You are correct, the Spesh SL is built on a 48V system.

The problem(battery sag) you are describing is not a consequence of the 48V system, but the the consequence of a smallish battery built with the tiny old 18650 cells that hold cca 40% less energy than the newer 21700 cells.

The less capacity a cell has the shorter the time it can operate at an optimal SOC, that is especially pushed to extremes in smaller battery packs where the number of cells is less and so each cell is also pushed harder than in a big pack where the load is shared by more cells. For comparison: the SL 320Wh pack has 26 cells(each 3,4Ah), a brand new 800Wh pack has 40 cells(each 5,5Ah).

 

[emtbeast]

Hey,

After I read rumors way back about Specialized going 48V with the new Levo I was doing some personal research on a possible battery pack size in that case, just thought it was a got time to throw out what I got back then...

I was going of the idea of Spesh as innovative and bringing evolution to the market so the majority of the post is based on the possibility of an 850Wh 4kg battery pack.

I actually came up with two possible sizes.
A 850Wh(14S3P) and 567Wh(14S2P) pack.

Note: The 48V system is a bit tricky because of the individual cell voltage, you need to choose the configuration. For the post I will lean on the 14S configuration, with some explanation of the difference.

Cells have a nominal voltage between 3,6V and 3,7V, most closer to 3,6V, for the calculations I will use the mid value of 3,65V.

You need to decide if you will have 13S3P or a 14S3P configuration pack.

If you build a pack with 13 cell series you come a bit short of 48V. 13 x 3,65V = 47,45.

If you build it with 14 cell series you cone a bit over 48V. 14 x 3,65V = 51,1V.

The later is better because with it you
can account for voltage loss because of different individual cell SOC etc., and it can be regulated to a lower voltage if necessary.

I will focus on the possibility of a 48V(51,1V) 850Wh pack in 14S3P configuration with a 21700 5,55Ah cell.

3,65V x 42 x 5,55Ah ~ 850Wh

42 Cells in a stack configuration:

7(row/length) x 3(width) x 2(height)

or

8(upper row 6) x 3(width) x 2(height)

That would mean a pack in dimensions of a length of cca 560mm to 600mm, a width of cca 68mm to 70mm and a height of cca 47mm to 49mm.

Just the cells would have a weight of cca 3kg(42 x 72g). The rest of the weight is the housing and the internals. With a light material(magnesium) and thiner structuraly reinforced housing walls it would be possible to get the weight of the housing and internals to cca 1kg. The whole 850Wh pack would then weigh cca 4kg and the 567Wh cca 2,8kg

If they would use the 14S configuration, then the system could also be marketed as a 52V system as some manufacturers in other LEV(light electric vehicle) fields are doing even though in reality the system as a whole is a 48V.

If they would go for a 13S configuration then the pack sizes would be 527Wh(2,65kg) and 790Wh(3,8kg) with maybe slightly smaller dimensions.

The deciding factor for the battery pack configuration is mostly the motor and the exact voltage it's is made to operate at, if that's closer to 48V or closer to 52V.

As written in previous posts I guess we will soon see if I hit the nail on the head in any points

 

[electricbogaloo]

You are correct, the Spesh SL is built on a 48V system.

The problem(battery sag) you are describing is not a consequence of the 48V system, but the the consequence of a smallish battery built with the tiny old 18650 cells that hold cca 40% less energy than the newer 21700 cells.

The less capacity a cell has the shorter the time it can operate at an optimal SOC, that is especially pushed to extremes in smaller battery packs where the number of cells is less and so each cell is also pushed harder than in a big pack where the load is shared by more cells. For comparison: the SL 320Wh pack has 26 cells(each 3,4Ah), a brand new 800Wh pack has 40 cells(each 5,5Ah).

Do you know which current Specialized batteries use the 21700 cell format? Only the 700 wh or also the 500? M2 and M3 seem to be identical apart from the rock guard.

In general all lithium ion batteries will become unstable under stress when they are drained. Its not like a gas powered engine where you can go full throttle until the last drop. To protect an ageing (batteries are always aging) battery against too much permanent damage the bms has to cut the power output when the voltage falls under a certain value under stress.

 

[emtbeast]

Do you know which current Specialized batteries use the 21700 cell format? Only the 700 wh or also the 500? M2 and M3 seem to be identical apart from the rock guard.

In general all lithium ion batteries will become unstable under stress when they are drained. Its not like a gas powered engine where you can go full throttle until the last drop. To protect an ageing (batteries are always aging) battery against too much permanent damage the bms has to cut the power output when the voltage falls under a certain value under stress.

Spesh doesn't provide any info on which cells they use. But from the size and some math I would conclude that for the 700 and 500Wh they use a 21700 cell with an 4,8Ah capacity in a 10s4p configuration for the 700Wh pack and a bit smaler in capacity 4,6Ah cell in a 10s3p for the 500Wh.
Note: If they use the larger 4,8Ah cells for the 500Wh then that one is in reality a bit bigger(522Wh) than stated.

You could get some insight if dropping the 10inr22/ or the 10inr19/ tech specifications in Google, it looks like a lot of packs are made by the same company bmz group, bike manufacturers most probably r&d the housing etc...to fit their own bikes.

Yes you are correct, the discharge/charge cutoff voltages are usually somewhere at 3,0V for each cell and the upper limit somewhere at 4,1V. To By stable I meant, that the cell is able to provide stable current throughout it's optimal SOC window. This window is much wider with high amperage cells that unfortunately are not used in the ebike world due to ebike industry pursuit for range and also cost, the lower capacity/high amperage cells are not cheap.

The BMS is off course am important piece of the picture, and a good BMS is a must, because it monitors and controls every single cell for voltage, current and temperature.

An interesting point of ebike packs is safety, I always wondered why Giant packs are so bulky, did a bit of Google Search and was surprised on all of what is packed inside of a Giant pack, that I doubt some other manufacturers have, but that's a topic for a different thread.

 

[RichMorr]

Spesh doesn't provide any info on which cells they use. But from the size and some math I would conclude that for the 700 and 500Wh they use a 21700 cell with an 4,8Ah capacity in a 10s4p configuration for the 700Wh pack and a bit smaler in capacity 4,6Ah cell in a 10s3p for the 500Wh.
Note: If they use the larger 4,8Ah cells for the 500Wh then that one is in reality a bit bigger(522Wh) than stated.

You could get some insight if dropping the 10inr22/ or the 10inr19/ tech specifications in Google, it looks like a lot of packs are made by the same company bmz group, bike manufacturers most probably r&d the housing etc...to fit their own bikes.

Yes you are correct, the discharge/charge cutoff voltages are usually somewhere at 3,0V for each cell and the upper limit somewhere at 4,1V. To By stable I meant, that the cell is able to provide stable current throughout it's optimal SOC window. This window is much wider with high amperage cells that unfortunately are not used in the ebike world due to ebike industry pursuit for range and also cost, the lower capacity/high amperage cells are not cheap.

The BMS is off course am important piece of the picture, and a good BMS is a must, because it monitors and controls every single cell for voltage, current and temperature.

An interesting point of ebike packs is safety, I always wondered why Giant packs are so bulky, did a bit of Google Search and was surprised on all of what is packed inside of a Giant pack, that I doubt some other manufacturers have, but that's a topic for a different thread.

I remember on one of the EMBN interviews with specialized they said they used 21700 cells

 

[electricbogaloo]

The weight vs safety of a battery is also an important detail. Like chugging the cells inside without any or much protection would be light but unsafe. Removable batteries probably have to withstand tests where they fall from some height without combusting. So Amflow probably was rather aggressive here in shedding weight.

 

[emtbeast]

The weight vs safety of a battery is also an important detail. Like chugging the cells inside without any or much protection would be light but unsafe. Removable batteries probably have to withstand tests where they fall from some height without combusting. So Amflow probably was rather aggressive here in shedding weight.

Yes that's true, don't want to make a mess of the thread topic, so just leaving a link, it's an interesting look into what is going on inside a Giant battery pack. I am really interested if and how much of that is implemented in other manufacturer packs.

Delivering you the best in Power & Safety | EnergyPak Ebike Battery | Giant Bicycles Official site

Our engineers understand how important a great battery is for an E-bike. They strive to not only meet the most strict industry standards for safety and the environment, but also to give you a great riding experience for the full lifetime of your E-bike.

www.giant-bicycles.com

 

[Black Bear Trail]

I was fortunate enough to visit the specialized HQ near Arnhem in the Netherlands today. Some of you know I moved over with my company from the UK to Europe last year and I am now looking after Western Europe. I am a director of operations for one of the big logistics company’s. We had a great meeting they knew I was a levo freak as they put it as the sales guys had told them about me before they brought me along They had already planed a tour for us and they said hey do you want to see it he new levo. No pictures was the rule.

These things are only just being built up as they were getting the container ready to send them all to the launch event.

I messaged Rob about the vist yesterday and we had some back and forth today.

I don’t want to give to much away as the guys at Spec were really good and it was so nice of them to let me take a really good look at the new bike.

I will say this some of the the rumours are pretty much spot on but there are a few surprises that I was not expecting. It’s a great looking bike. I had the first 2 Levo’s and also now a KSL and a gen 2 LSL and I was going to get a Valar in the new year but now I know the number I am going to hang on till xxxx as I think bikes ace.

What was cool was the new fox wireless dropper first time I’ve seen one in the flesh and the factory ones look awesome if you like the gold. Seeing so many of them in one place was mind blowing.

They also introduced us to the specialized racing guys, they have a very cool set up, the stock they keep just for the global racers and sponsored teams is incredible there own bike warehouse would put chain reaction to shame.

It’s a cool day at work, and they invited me back for the launch. not the one in xxxxxxx with the influencers etc but the HQ event I am way to shit a rider to go on the other one, would have been nice mind you.

They HQ was also really cool they have a mini campus next to the forest and the main building look like something the avengers would live in.
View attachment 151332

Thanks for the teaser. Aren't the bikes made in Taiwan? I'm in Japan. So if I flew to Taiwan, I wonder if I could get Gen 4 Levo a little early, before they are released in Europe. What do you think?

 

[DylanJM]

Thanks for the teaser. Aren't the bikes made in Taiwan? I'm in Japan. So if I flew to Taiwan, I wonder if I could get Gen 4 Levo a little early, before they are released in Europe. What do you think?

I imagine Specialized will have all stock ready to go in their continental warehouses before the official launch so it really shouldn't make much difference.

 

[OZI]

Lets hope its something really special.... its going to take something brilliant to pull me away from the Vala I have my eye on.

On another note... I see there are more bikes coming with the DJI motor...... now just imagine if it was on a gen4 Levo...... Specialized would be unstoppable...... until it breaks

For me the wait was too long, I went from a Specialized Enduro Comp to a Santa Cruz Vala and I am completely satisfied.
This weekend I went for a 42Km ride with an elevation of 950 meters.
33Km in tour+ and 9Km in eMTB, I didn't feel the need for more power.
In the end 26% of battery was left, which means that 444Wh of the battery was consumed.
I weigh 68.5kg equipped and I'm 1.72 meters tall.
I'm in relatively good physical shape (53 years young

), considering I'm coming from a 2020 Specialized Enduro Comp and all my friends already ride ebikes

On this ride I went with a friend of mine (+- 1,85 meters) who has a 2022 Specialized Levo Comp and weighs 25kg more than me.
The Levo consumed 575Wh, that is, 29% more than the Vala. I believe that this difference is essentially due to the weight and physical shape of the rider.
The bike is a kit S, size M and weights 22,65Kg with pedals (405g), liquid in tubeless tires, mudguard and RideWrap 95%

I haven't done the jumps in the Enduro photo yet, but so far I haven't missed the 170mm of travel. The Vala is much quieter going down and more comfortable. When I land it feels like I'm landing on a mattress

 

[roccobarocco]

Cool Bike, congrats

 

[Aitrui]

Specialzed Remote, looks like a bosch engine?

 

[David666]

No wireless remote ? Strange. And Bosch did not announce any 48V system unless at least in short term unless I am wrong.

 

[DylanJM]

I know it looks like a Bosch based on the side plate but it’s seems much more compact to my eye? Perhaps something else?

 

[salko]

Well well ...

 

[Bike Bot]

Interesting bike indeed with a Spesh controller and Bosch motor - no display at all. I don't recognize it right away, but I doubt it is really a Spesh proto. You can find pics of the complete bike from here - obviously it is the same bike: Pic of the Day

 

[electricbogaloo]

It's a KTM. No idea what the spesh controller does there. I hope specialized gets rid of that useless turbo button.

 

[DylanJM]

Finally thought we were getting something, I guess not. The wait continues.

 

[Bike Bot]

Yes, most likely KTM, at least the rims and the overall design match. There is no Bosch top tube controller/display at all, so it seems to be some kind of prototype. Anyway, nice quiz from Aitrui whatever it is

 

[electricbogaloo]

Its KTM Macina Kapoho: KTM Macina Kapoho Prestige in review – The name is the game. But is it?

 

[Polar]

It's a KTM. No idea what the spesh controller does there. I hope specialized gets rid of that useless turbo button.

It's not useless if you got the latest TCU

 

[Dax]

It's a KTM. No idea what the spesh controller does there. I hope specialized gets rid of that useless turbo button.

Turbo button goes through the data pages on the display.

 

[DuncanDoughnuts]

For me the wait was too long, I went from a Specialized Enduro Comp to a Santa Cruz Vala and I am completely satisfied.
This weekend I went for a 42Km ride with an elevation of 950 meters.
33Km in tour+ and 9Km in eMTB, I didn't feel the need for more power.
In the end 26% of battery was left, which means that 444Wh of the battery was consumed.
I weigh 68.5kg equipped and I'm 1.72 meters tall.
I'm in relatively good physical shape (53 years young

), considering I'm coming from a 2020 Specialized Enduro Comp and all my friends already ride ebikes

On this ride I went with a friend of mine (+- 1,85 meters) who has a 2022 Specialized Levo Comp and weighs 25kg more than me.
The Levo consumed 575Wh, that is, 29% more than the Vala. I believe that this difference is essentially due to the weight and physical shape of the rider.
The bike is a kit S, size M and weights 22,65Kg with pedals (405g), liquid in tubeless tires, mudguard and RideWrap 95%

I haven't done the jumps in the Enduro photo yet, but so far I haven't missed the 170mm of travel. The Vala is much quieter going down and more comfortable. When I land it feels like I'm landing on a mattress

View attachment 151530 View attachment 151531 View attachment 151533

Very nice looking bike..

Yes weight plays a huge role in range. Im not unfit and im 86kg on a Levo ... and I cannot keep up with youngsters who weight 72 on Shimano EP8's on Pyga's. ...

.... the lighter you are ... the faster you are, regardless of the motor system.

MMMM it be hard to decided between that white and the green.