Let’s talk about PERFORMANCE ebikes

[RickBullotta]

Derestrict all of them would be much better to race and watch !

Now we're back to the KTM Freeride E. ;-)

 

[Zimmerframe]

EMTB racing up hill .... but you're not allowed to ride it ..

 

[#lazy]

Now we're back to the KTM Freeride E. ;-)

Nah you still gotta pedal !

 

[Gary]

Why would it favour certain motors? They'll all be very similar in terms of efficiency

nope,

So the ones being used to give more output would have empty batteries before the finish. It will become an energy management race then, just like any endurance event, be that running, cycling or Le-Mans.

AKA Shite for both competitors and spectators. brilliant

Any sport involving a rider or driver favours a lighter one.
[/QUOTE]No it doesn't.
Actually take a look at thre difference in weight between the top performing gravity mtb racers over the last 2 decades before talking utter nonsense. I'll give you a clue, the most dominant winners weights range from quite light to pretty heavy.

Despite the stupid uphill stage in E Enduro it is still a predominantly gravity based sport
. Normal Enduro is a gravity sport.

If everyone was limited to, say 360 Wh batteries, for example, the powerful motors would have to dial it back then or they'd get mugged at the end.
They have fuel capacity limits (used to be 120Litres, now it's 100Litres) in endurance racing for the same reason. "yes you can have 600hp if you want sunshine but you'll lose all that speed advantage sat in the pits doing fuel stops". Except with e-bikes it would be "you're on pedal-power only at the end".

You haven't even looked at the format, nevermind the rules of the EWS-E have you? No need to answer. I know from your last two posts that you haven't. so I'm not even going to point out how stupid what you're suggesting actually is.

Please stop. Or at least read the rules and format of the current format you're trying to suggest improvements to instead of simply comparing it to motor racing.

 

[cappuccino34]

You're arguing that it's better to be heavier in downhill and that changing the regs would be a bad thing because it would favour lighter riders; er yes, make it so that more people can be competitive.

I'm comparing with the likes of circuit racing and jockeys etc etc, obviously downhill racers aren't going to be the same scenario re rider weight. Whenever you're using energy to move a mass less mass is preferable.

No, I haven't read the regs, but when ANY championship in any discipline favours a particular vehicle/motor it's better to have the regs changed to level the playing field. Think, intake restrictors in Rallying and GT racing, ride height limits, minimum weight limits etc etc. There to level the playing field so that (almost) any make can compete as those with a design edge have the advantage taken away. My background is motorsport but physics is still physics whatever it's applied to.

More competitive is more entertaining, not less.

 

[Gary]

You're arguing that it's better to be heavier in downhill

No I'm not.
again, you're arguing about something you seem to know nothing about.

My background is motorsport

I know.
It shows

No, I haven't read the regs

And because of this i'm not interested in debating this with you... That and the fact you repeatedly keep trying to say I've said things I haven't.

 

[Moderator]

Please don't tell me we need a rule book about how we discuss the rules for EWS-E.

 

[Gary]

Common sense is usually sufficient

 

[cappuccino34]

Common sense says:-

From the results there's clearly a Bosch-favouring advantage. The rules WILL change to make it less so, sooner or later unless it is to become a one-make championship. I was merely suggesting a method that might be used to regulate things so that other makes can be more competitive.

Physics is physics, whether in cycling or motorsport, so please don't suggest that my experience is totally invalid.

Obviously you're the sort who wants to have the last word and try to belittle people, but doing so makes a person look narrow minded and frankly, a bit pathetic, so I'll sign off now and allow you to have your little tant.

 

[Gary]

Emtb racing is a farce because of the unfair advantage from wildly different motor specs/output/eficiency between the motors.
Whatever you think. it's not a motorsport.

Dude. I'm not belittling you.
By common sense I meant that I wouldn't dive into a thread about racing on a motorsport forum not knowing the first thing about motorsport racing. Let alone suggest changes to motorsport racing in line with what I know about cycle racing.

Let's not start calling folk names, eh?

 

[Jimbo Vills]

It’ll always draw comparisons with motorsport though Gary because in e bike racing there’s been a motor introduced.

Appreciate your stance from a purist perspective but unfortunately e bikes are going to blur the lines.

My view is have a fair set of rules / restrictions which suit enduro, see who can build the best bikes to that, and crack on and race. ??

 

[Gary]

I appreciate your stance even though I completely disagree.
Thanks for not calling me names.

 

[Jimbo Vills]

I appreciate your stance even though I completely disagree.
Thanks for not calling me names.

you are most welcome ???

 

[cappuccino34]

Ok, in essence I said " better manage the energy".

That applies to all kinds of disciplines; boxing, horse racing, boat racing, car racing and e-bikes too. You wouldn't put a heavyweight with a flyweight, because the energy outputs are different.

Regulate the energy output and you regulate the sport.

 

[Gary]

Regulate the energy output and you regulate the sport.

Yeah. I agree entirely. Just not in the way you suggested.
It's not going to happen in EWS-E (trust me)

 

[cappuccino34]

Yeah. I agree entirely. Just not in the way you suggested.
It's not going to happen in EWS-E (trust me)

It was only a suggestion.

And if ewse is so inflexible it won't last.

 

[Gary]

ewse is so inflexible it won't last.

It's not really as simple as just inflexibility. As long as it makes the EWS organisation money it will last. Rule changes will undoubtably happen just as they have been consistantly tweaked and ammended season to season in the normal EWS series. But there's no way anyone in the organisation is going to go to great lengths to even up the odds properly.
In the grand scheme of things I'm in a tiny minority that sees the current uneveness of the events for what they are.

 

[R120]

EWS-E exists because its an excellent marketing opportunity for brands, because its piggybacking onto an already set up World Series, so easy enough to set up vs a new series - at the end of the day probably only a few thousand people will actually follow it, but a lot more will read adverts about EWS-E race winning bikes.

EMTB racing doesn't make much sense on many levels, but it is a lot of fun - entering a local Enduro EMTB race like the Pedalhounds series in the UK is a great day out, with a bit of competition adding some flavour.

 

[RickBullotta]

EWS-E exists because its an excellent marketing opportunity for brands, because its piggybacking onto an already set up World Series, so easy enough to set up vs a new series - at the end of the day probably only a few thousand people will actually follow it, but a lot more will read adverts about EWS-E race winning bikes.

EMTB racing doesn't make much sense on many levels, but it is a lot of fun - entering a local Enduro EMTB race like the Pedalhounds series in the UK is a great day out, with a bit of competition adding some flavour.

here in the USA the GNCC (off-road motorcycle racing) series teamed up with Specialized to start an eMTB race series colocated with most of the same venues. GNCC racers and support were buying eMTBs to be able to preride courses without burning a ton of energy. Now you see eMTBs (many Levos) everywhere in the pits and tents at the races.

 

[The Flying Dutchman]

What stupid topic but I'm not cognitively gifted so I'll jump in


'Competitive' EMTB racing is the softball equivalent to REAL enduro MTB racing....whilst it's certainly a bit of fun at the social/local level, if you take it too seriously, it's a little pathetic.....

It's funny because I'm ripping on myself with my statement.... I've just entered the EMTB class at a local enduro next weekend. To be honest I think I'd more embarrassed if I won than if I lost. I thought the EMTB would be a good way to learn how the event works and to comfortably get all the segments in. If it goes well, my next event would probably be on my 'normal' bike.

re the original post: any properly setup modern long-travel enduro EMTB is going to be competitive. Jumping from one bike to the next isn't going to effect your placing dramatically if at all. But if I had to theorize a specific bike I'd choose to achieve the absolute fastest DH times I'd go for either a Commencal MetaPower 29er or Privateer E-161 with a low stack upfront, running a coil shock, Maxxis assegai MaxxGrip tyres, Magura MT7 brakes on thick 220mm rotors, a hard/narrow saddle and DH clipless pedals with minimal play. Would I want to ride this setup every day - hells no!

 

[>moto<]

What stupid topic but I'm not cognitively gifted so I'll jump in


'Competitive' EMTB racing is the softball equivalent to REAL enduro MTB racing....whilst it's certainly a bit of fun at the social/local level, if you take it too seriously, it's a little pathetic..... unless you're disabled or a dyke.

This^^^

I reckon EWSE will be cool, it may not be as purist as other forms of MTB but I think people will take it for what it is unless it gets regulated enough to level the playing field. If it brings money to the sport, increases expsosure to MTB in general and provides content for me, i'm down.

There will be those who are disadvantaged by the type of motor they are using but it's like in that in many other motorised sports. Forumal1 has to be one of the most regulated sports out there but it's a known, and painfully obvious fact, that if you aren't in the right car, you ain't going to win!

Take it with a pinch of salt and be happy the sport is growing for the greater good.

 

[RickBullotta]

This^^^

I reckon EWSE will be cool, it may not be as purist as other forms of MTB but I think people will take it for what it is unless it gets regulated enough to level the playing field. If it brings money to the sport, increases expsosure to MTB in general and provides content for me, i'm down.

There will be those who are disadvantaged by the type of motor they are using but it's like in that in many other motorised sports. Forumal1 has to be one of the most regulated sports out there but it's a known, and painfully obvious fact, that if you aren't in the right car, you ain't going to win!

Take it with a pinch of salt and be happy the sport is growing for the greater good.

They should allow and encourage full contact during eMTB races. Would equalize motor differences and be super fun for spectators!

 

[>moto<]

They should allow and encourage full contact during eMTB races. Would equalize motor differences and be super fun for spectators!

I would actually enter a race, I'm significantly more violent than I am skilled

 

[jbrown15]

Love the e racing or hate it, I’m interested to see what happens with the EWS ‘power’ stages with the rider on the EP8 bikes vs Bosch. Obvs the Bosch riders have a big power advance.

I almost wonder if Shimano has a software hack they can load into Shimano racers bikes that are competing in EWS-E racing so that they aren't in a big disadvantage against the Bosch racers?

Surely it wouldn't look good for their marketing to have all of the racers on Shimano motors getting smoked because of a lack of power compared to Bosch racers.

 

[R120]

Its only the "power" uphill stages where the fact your riding an EMTB makes any difference over rider skill in EWS-E. On the normal stages its still rider skill that will win the day. If you take riding uphill out of the equation, riding an emtb is just like riding a normal bike thats heavier.

 

[cappuccino34]

I almost wonder if Shimano has a software hack they can load into Shimano racers bikes that are competing in EWS-E racing so that they aren't in a big disadvantage against the Bosch racers?

Surely it wouldn't look good for their marketing to have all of the racers on Shimano motors getting smoked because of a lack of power compared to Bosch racers.

And is exactly the reason why I suggested regulating the energy output/capacity.

F1 is also much, much closer than it would be if there weren't so many tight regulations. Renault made a fundamental mistake with their turbo design from the off, and have been on the back foot ever since.

Honda are a few years behind on evolution, but are still way ahead of where the others were three years into it.

Ferrari had their fuel accumulation regulation 'loophole' banned, so now they're nowhere because they haven't been pushing other developments whilst they were able to rely on the cheat to get power.

The rest is aero, pretty much.

 

[Konanige]

The kind of ebikes wich range, comfort, all rounder water bottle fitting and even price don’t matter. This about the ebikes you would choose to race and set a clock.

As far I know (or I think I know ?) these are some (full motor power)

Lapierre GLP2
Pivot Shuttle
RM Powerplay
Whyte E
Norco VTL
Santacruz
Canyon Spectral ON
Intense Tazer
YT Decoy
Orbea Wild
Mondraker Crafty

Im based on specs and linkagedesign leverage ratios. Weight and trust on reviews, users and even brand own statement about the ebike. But I want to made clear they are supposed because to me is impossible ride all.

Discuss amigos. You can add or take off the lis and what an e-performance means to you, or you own experiences and feeling trying them. I know also there are different trails and scenarios so let’s imagine a mix or if you prefer try to fit them on their natural enviroments.

Merry CHRISTmas!

I
I'd have to say none if the above, if I wanted to race it'd be on an analogue bike!

 

[Eddy Current]

I'd choose to achieve the absolute fastest DH times I'd go for either a Commencal MetaPower 29er or Privateer E-161 with a low stack upfront, running a coil shock, Maxxis assegai MaxxGrip tyres, Magura MT7 brakes on thick 220mm rotors, a hard/narrow saddle and DH clipless pedals with minimal play. Would I want to ride this setup every day - hells no!

Commencal is getting mainstream shit, dunno on their normal bikes but the ebikes are just a hair above a Cube, no risk at all, long chainstays, comfy suspension, not even an effort to keep battery low on the frame, high Bb etc ...

 

[Rob Rides EMTB]

Barely any teams entered for EWS-E this year! Only 4 teams so far..

EWS Publishes 2021 Team List - Pinkbike

After months of speculation, teasing, and trolling, the EWS rumors season is coming to a close

www.pinkbike.com

EWS-E Teams

E-Team Moustache Bikes: Jerome Gilloux, Olivier Giordenango, Diego Giordenango, Kenny Muller
Husqvarna E-Bicycles Racing: Alex Fayolle
Miranda Factory Team: Emanuel Pombo, Tiago Ladeira, Nuno Reis
Tribe Rocky Mountain Power Play: Levy Batista, Irenee Menjou

 

[Sherman]

Beer league enduro is the only place where ebikes would make sense. And that's where we are heading. And that's why EWS-E exists, to sell us middle aged guys stupid expensive, "race ready" ebikes.