Laboratory conditions Rolling Resistance comparison - Mary's/VEE's/Wild Enduro's

[Zimmerframe]

OK, so not laboratory at all, just basic curiosity and knobbing about ..

For me I find different tyres can make a huge difference to range, DH22's for instance will give me about 20-25% less range than the Wild Enduro's on the Kenevo.

Kenevo Expert 2019 L 27.5/27.5 - Tubeless, Wild Enduro's 1.5 bar, 500wh (new wheel bearings) - 24.5kg
Jam 2 6.9 2021 M 29/29- Tubeless, Magic Mary's 1.5 bar, 630wh - 25.7kg
E-Mythique VR 29/27.5- Tubed. Vee's 3 bar (stop snake bites and suspension testing). 630wh - 26.4kg

The test ... drop in from standing. Then take a straight line over the grass and see how far you can get going back up the drive on the other side :

Not the results I was expecting. The Kenevo always feels like it's rolling the easiest and it's the lightest. You could argue the Focus has more momentum with it's mass, but the E-Mythique has even more momentum and a higher tyre pressure - but then did that cause the tyres not to absorb undulations and therefore lose speed ?

 

[ilostmypassword]

Do you need to worry about this being on an ebike?

 

[Zimmerframe]

Do you need to worry about this being on an ebike?

It's a consideration.

The faster you go, the more rolling resistance depending on the tyre. In turn, the more resistance, the slower you'll be going for the same effort/wh.

It's the endless search for the optimum, excellent all around grip when descending and cornering with a carcass which absorbs/supports but doesn't fail. Ideally with less weight so it accelerates and changes direction quicker and with lower straight line rolling resistance - so you go faster !

There's always been the constant desire for larger batteries - so you can go further, go faster, have more assistance for longer. If you can achieve the same result based on your tyre choice rather than having a heavier battery, that has to be a good thing ?

 

[Lee c]

@Zimmerframe so what were the results/findings ….

 

[Rando_12345]

Do you need to worry about this being on an ebike?

A lot of us are looking for a decent rear tyre on an ebike: puncture resistant, hard wearing and fast rolling. Very difficult to find.

 

[Zimmerframe]

@Zimmerframe so what were the results/findings ….

Apparently the results were so uninteresting that I forgot to write about them .. The pic is where the bikes stopped.

In first place .. the Mighty Magic Mary !

Second place goes to VEE Tire Co.

Last, but not least goes to the Wild Enduro's .

If we need that mathematically then μ = F/N , therefore the Mary's were 0.00137 , the Vee's were 0.00146 and the Wild's were 0.00153 or in it's simplest form Mary 1, Vee 2, Wild 3.

 

[RoJo]

Wow. I expected the Magic Mary to be really slow rolling
Sure it's not a lab test, but this includes a load of real world factors, so it's actually quite relevant.

 

[Zimmerframe]

Wow. I expected the Magic Mary to be really slow rolling
Sure it's not a lab test, but this includes a load of real world factors, so it's actually quite relevant.

I'd always discounted them previously as I'd imagined they'd be really draggy - despite being told they were actually really good (but my head was firmly wedged up my own arse).

I was really surprised when I first rode them. They seemed to feel the complete opposite of how they looked in terms of rolling. I've managed some huge rides on that bike with those tyres whilst still keeping a high average speed.

I should try it again tonight when it's hot and see if that affects things.

 

[Hardtail]

Nice one @Zimmerframe !
Do the same test on the same bike, assuming the wheels are all the same hub spacing. remember you don't need brakes if the discs don't match so no excuses!
Not knowing the different tyre sizes, run them at the same pressure, or the mathematical equivalent as per size difference...
I would imagine the suspension characteristics will also play a part...

 

[RipGroove]

Can confirm, Wilds on my last ebike made the thing really draggy, new ebike (same make and model, just newer) with Maxxis Minion and Assagai combo rolls much better, to the point where I use ECO mode an awful lot more than I did on my last bike.

 

[Zimmerframe]

Nice one @Zimmerframe !
Do the same test on the same bike, assuming the wheels are all the same hub spacing. remember you don't need brakes if the discs don't match so no excuses!
Not knowing the different tyre sizes, run them at the same pressure, or the mathematical equivalent as per size difference...
I would imagine the suspension characteristics will also play a part...

Yup, that would be the best way to test them. I think they'd all fit on the Focus, though I have 10/11 & 12 speed so I'd also run without the chain - worked for Gwin.

Not sure when I'll be bored enough at ZimLabs ACME (The Looney tunes version, not the official usage) to do it, but never say never .. Maybe I could do a stoppie all the way down then I'd only have to change the front wheel and it would remove 50% of the suspension from the equation ?

 

[Lee c]

Apparently the results were so uninteresting that I forgot to write about them .. The pic is where the bikes stopped.

In first place .. the Mighty Magic Mary !

Second place goes to VEE Tire Co.

Last, but not least goes to the Wild Enduro's .

If we need that mathematically then μ = F/N , therefore the Mary's were 0.00137 , the Vee's were 0.00146 and the Wild's were 0.00153 or in it's simplest form Mary 1, Vee 2, Wild 3.

Haha love this , very surprising thought the mm be the most draggy

 

[Suns_PSD]

I've done roll-down tests on my pedal bike testing different air pressures over much much bumpier terrain. My entire roll down area wasn't but around 150' long.

The short answer is that the lower the air pressure, the further a bike rolls, on my very bumpy terrain. It's very repeatable and not a small difference. An extra 30' just from air pressure was about the amount from highest to lowest air pressure.

My advice, install inserts front and rear and run the tires as low as you can without rolling a tire or destroying parts.
My pedal bikes run 19/ 22 on trail-ish tires & I'm still dialing in my new mid power ebike but it looks like I can get away with about 22/25, with inserts and 1300 gram tires.

I only slightly care about this stuff on my e-bike personally.

 

[Mikerb]

I dont want to trash your scientific experiment...BUT....rolling resistance is going to be very dependant on trail surface conditions. A very knobbly tyre will not penetrate the surface so much less rubber in contact with the ground. The tyre rubber compound will also determine how much those knobblies deform and therefore are in contact with the ground. Each tyre also has an optimum tyre pressure. Personally, I use DHR11 rear and Assegai front and vary the pressures ( slightly) depending on trail conditions. At the end of the day I am more interested in grip than any other criterea.
As mentioned somewhere a bove, the geo of each bike will have an impact ( possibly mostly head angle) and harder suspension settings would also probably have an impact.
I think you need a double blind trial using the same bike but with different tyres ( which would also avoid you having to try to ride 3 bikes at the same time going home). Keep up the good work!!

 

[Plummet]

I have a harder wearing rear tire better rolling resistance in the e mazza on the back of the pole.

It sucks for traction down steeps and across roots and for climbing up steep rootysections.

I am tearing those tyres off and putting gripier tires on.

So... better wear and rolling resistance means worse traction.

If you are pushing technical riding then go for grip. Sure you will have slightly less battery life. But you will be grinning when your bike can climb up and ride down stuff a lot better.

 

[Zimmerframe]

OK Lab geeks ...

All tyres at 1.5 bar.

All suspension locked where possible or set hard.

All motors off (no chance of an accidental start boost cranking when going over the lip).

All droppers down.....

Full tuck and precisely followed the same line each time.

Each test was performed twice and each time there was no more than 30cm's difference !

The Focus was run an extra time with the suspension open and lost 50cm's from it's closed position on it's second run.

All the bikes went further than yesterday (tuck and line I guess).

Today. Mary Wins, by about 50cm more than yesterday. Then E-wild. Then Vee.

The Vee would seem to roll slightly better at 3 bar than 1.5 bar. Yesterday it had half a bike length on the Wild, today it was 30cm's back.

 

[irie]

I only slightly care about this stuff on my e-bike personally.

On my eBike I care about this stuff a bit less than this. As long as the battery doesn't run out who gives a FF?

 

[steve_sordy]

Several years ago, pre-ebike, I used to ride frequently with a mate. He was the same weight as me and a similar skillset. He preferred higher tyre pressures to me but he had a similar bike set up, we even both had the same wheel size. We were rolling down this rooty and twisty trail when he commented that he had to pedal to keep up with me not pedalling.

We discussed this and although (as @Mikerb wrote above) factors like tyre tread pattern, rubber hardness, bike geometry and so forth all have some impact, we decided that tyre pressure and maybe body movement were the most likely reasons. Body movement? Anyone heard of pump tracks?

 

[Suns_PSD]

On my eBike I care about this stuff a bit less than this. As long as the battery doesn't run out who gives a FF?

The thing for me is that it's not about battery life, and on any decent tire I can climb anything, so it really comes down to chassis balance.

If I place the exact same tire & size on any bike, it understeers horribly and this actually slows me down through the turns. This is because most bikes have nearly 2x the weight on the rear tire, than they do the front tire, meaning the rear tire has considerably more traction anyways.

So ignoring the battery life, there is a legitimate reason to consider a lower traction tire in the rear.

That said, mullet bikes already take a huge hit in rear traction so it almost works out pretty well just on that alone.

 

[Suns_PSD]

Several years ago, pre-ebike, I used to ride frequently with a mate. He was the same weight as me and a similar skillset. He preferred higher tyre pressures to me but he had a similar bike set up, we even both had the same wheel size. We were rolling down this rooty and twisty trail when he commented that he had to pedal to keep up with me not pedalling.

We discussed this and although (as @Mikerb wrote above) factors like tyre tread pattern, rubber hardness, bike geometry and so forth all have some impact, we decided that tyre pressure and maybe body movement were the most likely reasons. Body movement? Anyone heard of pump tracks?

Like I mentioned above, on bumpy terrain lower air pressure in the tires rolls further. It's not even a small difference. This is because a tire tread moving up and out of the way takes less energy than shifting an entire bike and rider upwards in response to bumps. Obviously all tires flex and suspension moves but the more of that you can do in the tires the less energy passed upwards and wasted.

Lower air pressure also rides better. I find the best solution is dual Rimpact inserts and a bit lower air pressure. This improves traction, rolls easier, is less tiring to ride, results in less tire damage, gives you a way to ride home on the insert in a pinch & the protects the wheels.

 

[ilostmypassword]

A lot of us are looking for a decent rear tyre on an ebike: puncture resistant, hard wearing and fast rolling. Very difficult to find.

Run tyre inserts. Hit the trails!

 

[Tubby G]

OK Lab geeks ...

All tyres at 1.5 bar.

All suspension locked where possible or set hard.

All motors off (no chance of an accidental start boost cranking when going over the lip).

All droppers down.....

Full tuck and precisely followed the same line each time.

Each test was performed twice and each time there was no more than 30cm's difference !

The Focus was run an extra time with the suspension open and lost 50cm's from it's closed position on it's second run.

View attachment 124245

All the bikes went further than yesterday (tuck and line I guess).

Today. Mary Wins, by about 50cm more than yesterday. Then E-wild. Then Vee.

The Vee would seem to roll slightly better at 3 bar than 1.5 bar. Yesterday it had half a bike length on the Wild, today it was 30cm's back.

Are you doing this within the grounds of your vast estate or are you actually taking the three bikes out in public and rolling up and down that road ?

 

[Zimmerframe]

Are you doing this within the grounds of your vast estate or are you actually taking the three bikes out in public and rolling up and down that road ?

Just garden knobbing about...

I'm too lazy to take them all out.

 

[Tubby G]

Just garden knobbing about...

I'm too lazy to take them all out.

Good, I was a little concerned about your sanity if you were doing all this in public!

 

[beutelfuchs]

Run tyre inserts. Hit the trails!

He said puncture resistance.

 

[franciscoasismm]

After 6 years and more than 55,000 km testing ebike tires, my choice is front and rear Specialized Eliminator Grid Gravity 2Bliss Ready T7/T9 29x2.6. They have a good balance between tread, rubber hardness, puncture protection and never puncture or crack casing with them.

 

[beutelfuchs]

Gravity tires like Maxxis DD/DH or Schwalbe SuperGRavity have all great puncture resistance. Unfortunately the all roll like a sack of nuts.

 

[ilostmypassword]

He said puncture resistance.

Yes. Inserts and tubeless + goo. My local trails are super rocky so for me that was the fix from weekly snake bites. Depends on the terrain I guess but for overall protection I stand by Inserts and tubeless + goo.

 

[beutelfuchs]

But snake bites are not punctures. A puncture is something sharp or pointy driving a hole in the tire, often a piece of rock. An insert can't do anything about that unfortunately.

 

[franciscoasismm]

Gravity tires like Maxxis DD/DH or Schwalbe SuperGRavity have all great puncture resistance. Unfortunately the all roll like a sack of nuts.

I haven't noticed much noise and I go Boost very often