Is it me? Second faulty EP8 after 315 miles total…

[RJUK]

Granted I have the old style removable e8010 battery, but if I’m going to apply water to bike I always remove the battery ,wash , dry,wait overnight and keep bike in a warm place to totally dry out on the fear that water will short circuit something. I have zero proof that this is a good idea but it seems right to me

It's not water getting into the battery that's the problem. It's water/dirt getting to the bearings of the motor and corroding them.

 

[Cyclopath1000]

I’m not disagreeing but I figured the battery or something shorting out due to water being a conductor was something that I could minimize. I have never as I recall directly hosed down or submerged the motor. Even in NorCal that makes creek crossings problematic when they are running high.

 

[RJUK]

I’m not disagreeing but I figured the battery or something shorting out due to water being a conductor was something that I could minimize. I have never as I recall directly hosed down or submerged the motor. Even in NorCal that makes creek crossings problematic when they are running high.

Oh sure - as long as water can't get into the frame with the battery out then it can't hurt to remove it. But the thing that tends to kill ebikes is water/dirt getting into the motor bearings. Probably better off putting a plastic bag over the motor area before you wash the rest of the bike, then just wiping the motor area down with a damp rag.

 

[volts]

Correct Shimano motors are not serviceable. I replaced my e8000 at 5k miles all sorts of clunking started for the last 500 miles. Motor was $1200 direct from Shimano. 2019 model year so approx $300/year without installation. That’s in my acceptable range. Not much different than what 5k miles of drivetrain parts typically cost. Or a couple sets of linkage bearing replacement. E biking isn’t exactly a cheap sport.

It's not always possible or at least easy to get a new motor. I also doubt you can get the E8000 anywhere anymore. This basically means that if your motor went dead after warranty, your frame is dead (unless you can rewire and aquire an EP8, they do after all use same bolt holes).
5k miles for a motor is acceptable in my opinion as well, but would it also be acceptable had it failed after 2k? That's not an unlikely scenario.
With your story, this was acceptable. But to make a motor that is not serviceable creates a LOT of other situations that unlike your personal story are unacceptable.
That's why I would never recommend anyone to get a Shimano motor driven frame unless they plan on selling the bike within 2 years of purchase from new, and I would NEVER recommend anyone to buy used frames with Shimano motors.

 

[RJUK]

It's not always possible or at least easy to get a new motor. I also doubt you can get the E8000 anywhere anymore. This basically means that if your motor went dead after warranty, your frame is dead (unless you can rewire and aquire an EP8, they do after all use same bolt holes).
5k miles for a motor is acceptable in my opinion as well, but would it also be acceptable had it failed after 2k? That's not an unlikely scenario.
With your story, this was acceptable. But to make a motor that is not serviceable creates a LOT of other situations that unlike your personal story are unacceptable.
That's why I would never recommend anyone to get a Shimano motor driven frame unless they plan on selling the bike within 2 years of purchase from new, and I would NEVER recommend anyone to buy used frames with Shimano motors.

That's where I am right now. Loads of great bikes with tha motor, but utterly bonkers that they aren't serviceable. Especially something as simple as bearings. You could do 5 Miles on it, get a little water I whilst washing or riding it and it be toast.

 

[Cyclopath1000]

Actually the second motor was gotten via COMMENCAL direct from Shimano maybe 6 months ago. It’s my impression that they continue to make the e8000. I could be wrong. If someone is thinking about relaxing the motor with a new unit and it is actually available, plan on a complete rebuild of the moving parts. Linkage bearings, drive train etc etc. if you aren’t doing it all yourself plan on $3,000 more or less. The COMMENCAL is aluminum and beefy. So it’s sort of a crap shoot that something else such as a frame weld doesn’t deteriorate etc. if i was jumping gaps,
Which I don’t , it makes the decision re replace motor vs new bike a way harder choice. I’m the type of person that tends to keep old things in working order and spend what it takes to do that. That’s not necessarily the smartest approach.

 

[steve_sordy]

I have had an e8000 and an EP8, have gone through 4 British winters and wash my bike regularly without taking any precautions to avoid water getting into the battery. OK, I don't jetwash it, don't even use a hose, just a bucket of hot soapy water and watering can (cold water). Also, I don't tip water down the vents at the top of the down tube. But apart from that I don't take any precautions.

Not forded any rivers either!

 

[B1rdie]

You can get a brand new e8000 motor on ebay for EU $800.
I got one last year, to substitute my first one that failed at 5.000 km. I did not even bothet to try to fix it yet, the new one has 1.600km and is doing fine
People pay 800 euros on cassetes but complain about motors that cost as much !?!?
I intend to keep my 2018 spectralon for many years to come, believing that if shimano ever stops making the e8000, they will then be supplied by third part makers, at lower price tags.

 

[RJUK]

You can get a brand new e8000 motor on ebay for EU $800.
I got one last year, to substitute my first one that failed at 5.000 km. I did not even bothet to try to fix it yet, the new one has 1.600km and is doing fine
People pay 800 euros on cassetes but complain about motors that cost as much !?!?
I intend to keep my 2018 spectralon for many years to come, believing that if shimano ever stops making the e8000, they will then be supplied by third part makers, at lower price tags.

800 euros for a cassette?! What cassette costs that?

It's not really the point that it costs so much though, rather that it can't be serviced. The bearings ought to be replaceable, then the repair would cost a fraction of the replacement cost, and you're not relying on Shimano to continue to produce an old motor (which they likely won't).

 

[volts]

800 euros for a cassette?! What cassette costs that?

It's not really the point that it costs so much though, rather that it can't be serviced. The bearings ought to be replaceable, then the repair would cost a fraction of the replacement cost, and you're not relying on Shimano to continue to produce an old motor (which they likely won't).

He also conveniently forgets about all the motors that doesn't run 5k before they die.
I keep saying that the problem isn't with the motors going 5k, the problem is with the motors going much less and EP8 can be hard to find (dunno if that's the case anymore)

 

[RJUK]

He also conveniently forgets about all the motors that doesn't run 5k before they die.
I keep saying that the problem isn't with the motors going 5k, the problem is with the motors going much less and EP8 can be hard to find (dunno if that's the case anymore)

Exactly. And even 5k is rubbish for a motor. Imagine of all these electric car motors were dying every 5000 Miles or less. In cars the motors are mostly very reliable, despite being far more powerful and having to haul 2000kgs+ around. Sure, they're not used off road, but the state of the roads at the moment isn't far off...

 

[B1rdie]

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[RJUK]

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Holy moly! Still not 800 Euros mind. And you go into that purchase knowing that it's a consumable item and will wear over a period of time.

 

[Cyclopath1000]

I’ve read every scrap of info on repairing Shimano motors including the rebuild by the Scotsman posted on YouTube. Even if spare parts including the small circuit boards that are interspersed and integrated into the very compact design were available, few individuals could reliably rebuild the Shimano motors to the OEM specs. The actual bearings are available but not anything else. Perhaps Shimano could open a rebuild facility but I can’t imagine a tear down and rebuild to OEM level not costing close to or more than a new replacement. I do hope somebody proves me wrong. As long as replacement motors are available I can swallow the price if the motors can give 4-5 k miles. If they can’t run that long and many fail before 2k miles then Houston we have a problem.

I’ve yet to see any useful data on the longevity of any of the other brands. And yes rumor has it that Bosch motor can be worked on. But correct me if I’m in error but most of the Bosch repairs involve replacing a drive belt that isn’t part of the Shimano design mechanicals. We know basically zip on tq, fazua, Panasonic, brose longevity.

No e bike motor has bearings immersed in an oil bath so they are all subject to excessive heat and wear. Polini motors were designed for rebuild but they are uncommon on most brands.

 

[RJUK]

I’ve read every scrap of info on repairing Shimano motors including the rebuild by the Scotsman posted on YouTube. Even if spare parts including the small circuit boards that are interspersed and integrated into the very compact design were available, few individuals could reliably rebuild the Shimano motors to the OEM specs. The actual bearings are available but not anything else. Perhaps Shimano could open a rebuild facility but I can’t imagine a tear down and rebuild to OEM level not costing close to or more than a new replacement. I do hope somebody proves me wrong. As long as replacement motors are available I can swallow the price if the motors can give 4-5 k miles. If they can’t run that long and many fail before 2k miles then Houston we have a problem.

I’ve yet to see any useful data on the longevity of any of the other brands. And yes rumor has it that Bosch motor can be worked on. But correct me if I’m in error but most of the Bosch repairs involve replacing a drive belt that isn’t part of the Shimano design mechanicals. We know basically zip on tq, fazua, Panasonic, brose longevity.

No e bike motor has bearings immersed in an oil bath so they are all subject to excessive heat and wear. Polini motors were designed for rebuild but they are uncommon on most brands.

The issues tend to be with the bearings of the motors, and the Bosch ones can be swapped out. The Bearing Man advised doing it annually. I'm not sure that's an option with the Shimano even?

 

[Cyclopath1000]

Watch the tear down and rebuild by the Scotsman. The Shimano motor likewise needs the bearings replaced but the design including the circuit boards make it extraordinarily difficult. It wasn’t designed to be rebuilt.

 

[volts]

It wasn’t designed to be rebuilt.

And that's a problem with any motor that contains parts that wear out like bearings, cogs and belts.
Everyone knows these things have a limited lifespan.
Sure, things like circuit boards can fry and if they do it's debatable if it worth repairing but even those should IMO be made to be swapped for a new one without too much hassle.

Making a motor with bearings that isn't serviceable is just bad design. Plain and simple.

 

[Cyclopath1000]

No argument here! Unfortunately not happening with most of these brands.

 

[crsb]

Never ever wash your bike. It's the reason some people have problems and other don't. I suspect it's why so many in uk have issues.. just let mud dry and brush it off, then wipe with wet microfiber towel. No need to be hosing it down.

As stated… that is what I do

 

[crsb]

Wow, how steep are the climbs around there? Using a 34 t chainring an 11-40 11speed cassete I hardly use boost on 20% of the time spent climbing. At 80 rpm cadence.
I’d say that landing jumps and using turbo/boost out the design scope of a motor are the most usual reasons for motor failures.

They’re mainly quite long semi-steep climbs, here’s the latest graph of the last ride which has broken the motor.

Seems ridiculous that they’re putting these motors on enduro bikes that are supposed to take a thrashing, and they’re failing. It shouldn’t matter if they’re in boost or not, if they have the setting on the bike it should be able to handle anything the bikes designed for. Maybe they need to look into making a “Downhill / Jump” mode that can adapt certain parts of the electronics to handle stuff

 

[crsb]

So, jumping, gearing and washing bikes destroys motors..
Remind me why we are buying these overpriced fragile electric toys again?

Exactly what I’m thinking, I’m relieved that Wiggle have offered me a full refund on the bike.
I think I’m going to take a step away from e-bikes until they’ve worked out the reliability issues to be honest, might try a different motor brand, but the worry is still always there!

 

[Dax]

So, jumping, gearing and washing bikes destroys motors..
Remind me why we are buying these overpriced fragile electric toys again?

Plenty of people getting pedal strikes, washing their bikes, jumping and riding up hills in turbo on other brands. I personally have done all of those things in the last month without exploding any motors. My OG Kenevo has probably spent 60% of its 3000 miles in turbo dragging me up fire roads on the limiter at FoD.

It’s a fact of life that ebike motors are fragile, but that should be 1000-2000 miles, not <200. Send it back and buy something with Bosch gen4 or brose.

 

[72wardy]

I too have questioned the strength of these motors riding bike parks and jumping. I live in south Wales and did 1600 error free miles on my Shimano motor up and down every valley/trail I could find. Then bought a season pass at bike park wales and destroyed two motors within six months, both had e010 error code that couldn’t be cleared and were replaced under warranty.
My bike is now out of warranty so I’ve toned down my riding to help prolong the longevity of this latest motor. Currently 500 plus error free miles

 

[crsb]

3000 miles in turbo dragging me up fire roads on the limiter at FoD.

Then bought a season pass at bike park wales and destroyed two motors within six months

It’s funny that you both have said this! My first motor got the E010 (torque sensor) at FOD during an ascent, and my second motor broke after riding BPW.
Maybe it’s the rough terrain?

It’s a shame that you even have to think about dialling your riding back because of shimano’s issues. I really hope they get on top of it as I love riding my eBike, but like you said, you spend all that money on a season pass then are getting faulty motors. It just seems like expense after expense! And the last thing I want is to be 20km into an exploring ride and then BAM dead motor.

 

[Zimmerframe]

Maybe it’s the rough terrain?

It's bushy beards.

They shed when you shred !

This is why Harleys were made with a V twin mounted front/back to try to protect the motor from beard shed.

Bosch advise Bushy's wear a Bosch Beard Bag when riding off road.

 

[B1rdie]

IMHO actual ebikes are designed to stand the kind of blue trails jumps and to be used on turbo for 30% of the climbs… and do not believe the brand of the motor makes a big difference.
Canyon recently released three new models, two of them with bosch, but the one to take the big hits has the shimano?!?

 

[RJUK]

IMHO actual ebikes are designed to stand the kind of blue trails jumps and to be used on turbo for 30% of the climbs… and do not believe the brand of the motor makes a big difference.
Canyon recently released three new models, two of them with bosch, but the one to take the big hits has the shimano?!?

I wouldn't read into it too much. Probably more about supplier deals and availability than anything. They probably want to keep Shimano happy so they can still get good pricing on their drive trains, but put Bosch on the models they think will sell more.

TBH, I've ordered a Strive: On. I 100% wouldn't have if it had the Shimano motor. It's what had previously stopped me ordering a Spectral: On.

Whilst I like the Bosch system better overall, it's the complete lack of serviceability that is stopping me buying a bike with the Shimano motor. That's a complete deal breaker and seems insane in a time where we need to be thinking more about sustainability. In a few years all these non-recyclable carbon frames will have dead motors and inevitably end up in landfill.

I reckon anyone with the knowledge to build their own serviceable motor into the Shimano casing would have a nice little business keeping all those bikes going.

 

[Jhowlett]

I've had my ep8 serviced as it was out of warranty. Works good as new now. e bike repairs in cumbria are fantastic

 

[RJUK]

I've had my ep8 serviced as it was out of warranty. Works good as new now. e bike repairs in cumbria are fantastic

In what way did they service it? And what was the cost?

 

[B1rdie]

I wouldn't read into it too much. Probably more about supplier deals and availability than anything. They probably want to keep Shimano happy so they can still get good pricing on their drive trains, but put Bosch on the models they think will sell more.

TBH, I've ordered a Strive: On. I 100% wouldn't have if it had the Shimano motor. It's what had previously stopped me ordering a Spectral: On.

Whilst I like the Bosch system better overall, it's the complete lack of serviceability that is stopping me buying a bike with the Shimano motor. That's a complete deal breaker and seems insane in a time where we need to be thinking more about sustainability. In a few years all these non-recyclable carbon frames will have dead motors and inevitably end up in landfill.

I reckon anyone with the knowledge to build their own serviceable motor into the Shimano casing would have a nice little business keeping all those bikes going.

I don't think its about keeping shimano happy, since the same bike that canyon resolved to use the EP8 on, comes with a full sram eletronic drivetrain. In fact that surprised me even more: why did they choose tho use the shimano motor and not take the advantage of full integrated drivetrain and shifting control?
The costs involved in servicing a motor should also be considered. There are fragile PCB, bulky bearings that are sealed and sprockets that need lube that may compromise the PCB, tinny sensors and I/O devices all housed tightly, in such a way that very few riders could DIY and even fewer mechanics are prone to work on.