How much battery do you need on your next emtb?

[knut7]

There's a lot of talk about bigger batteries. Bosch just released their 625Wh battery, Specialized and other manufacturers are already selling ~700Wh batteries. But do all of us need bigger batteries? Or do we prefer to save some weight, and money by going with a smaller battery?

If you want say a 730Wh battery, just select 700Wh, I wanted to have as few options as possible,

 

[Doomanic]

TBH, most of the time 500Wh is sufficient. Any more and I'd just be lazy and use more assist. Sometimes though, more would be better as even Ecoing it everywhere isn't enough.

 

[Russell]

I have no interest in changing bike until the frame cracks but would like another 500w battery for bike parks. As it is, my current 500w battery lasts half a day.

 

[Andy A]

700wh is what I got in my Levo and for me it is the perfect size battery.

 

[dirt huffer]

I'd like a small, inexpensive, and packable, 250wh Shimano battery to carry with on long excursions. 500wh is good enough the majority of the time for me.

 

[knut7]

I'd like a small, inexpensive, and packable, 250wh Shimano battery to carry with on long excursions. 500wh is good enough the majority of the time for me.

Yeah, if carrying spare batteries catches on then I believe there should be smaller second batteries. A ~250Wh battery might not be powerful enough to handle max power on most emtb motors, but a ~380Wh should suffice. A second battery with 30 cells and 378Wh should be cheaper and more lightweight. Combined with a 500Wh battery that's almost 900Wh.

 

[JonnyLevo34]

I have no interest in changing bike until the frame cracks but would like another 500w battery for bike parks. As it is, my current 500w battery lasts half a day.

Do you take uplifts or ride up all the time and still get half a day from your 500?

 

[Kingfisher]

We live in exciting times, where growth is still exponential. Bosch went from 400 to 500 (+25%), now 630 (+26%), with very little change in size and weight.

Personally a 500 lasts longer than me on my daily ride, for longer, multiday rides I carry a spare and/or the charger (stopover in a pub/restaurant/supermarket/some random house)

 

[JonnyLevo34]

I have the 700 but would like a spare 500 for bike parks. I would also get the 252 trail watts for extended riding when carrying a spare battery isn't an option. So basically when I haven't driven to my ride location.

Anyone ride bike parks (and do not use the uplift) with the trail watts range extender and get a good 5-6 hours of riding?

 

[craig landau]

im happy with 4 or 500 w but i really want a generator to recharge the battery

 

[Kaelidoz]

I'm happy right now with 400Wh (especially riding with regulars mtbs) but I'll aim for 600Wh in the next bike.

 

[highpeakrider]

Most of the time the standard focus 374 is enough for me.

 

[Doomanic]

Do you take uplifts or ride up all the time and still get half a day from your 500?

When we did BPW last year I did 17.5 miles and 3.5k ft of climbing on one battery, mostly in eMTB mode. That took us past lunchtime.

 

[TrailwattsUK]

I have the 700 but would like a spare 500 for bike parks. I would also get the 252 trail watts for extended riding when carrying a spare battery isn't an option. So basically when I haven't driven to my ride location.

Anyone ride bike parks (and do not use the uplift) with the trail watts range extender and get a good 5-6 hours of riding?

Hi, quite a few Kenevo/ levo trailwatts customers using the climb up to the top to avoid uplift charges.
All depending on settings and weights you can be doing a days riding especially on 952wh? (700+252wh)

 

[Russell]

Do you take uplifts or ride up all the time and still get half a day from your 500?

It was at rogate and I was riding up in turbo.?

 

[33red]

My Yamaha has 500 and i like it. If i get an Efat 600 would be nice for winter/snow

 

[iXi]

I have 630 now and it's heaps although I would have more if I could but then again 500 would be enough for 95% of my rides

 

[Tamas]

I have two 500Wh and it’s perfect for me. 95% of rides one battery is enough or I’ll swap at the car and for the occasional long rides I’ll carry the spare. That’s why I prefer external batteries, light(ish) and small easy to carry.

 

[Simoto123]

For me 500 is enough mostly, but I have the 252 trailwatts for big days.
Also the selfless act of buying my missus a 19 ht gave me another spare 400 watts “for my old bike love”. 18 S-Works bought the week before hers, lol, cue despicable laughter.

 

[Rusty]

Just fitted a 700Wh battery in my Levo but have only had a short ride due to absolutely crap weather & illness. IF I can do my 46km loop with power remaining I will be happy.
Would like to see something bigger available for all-day adventure rides as carrying a spare just plain sucks IMHO. I only ever use a backpack on 80-100k or longer rides so I can carry a few bits & bobs to jury rig any crash damage & a bite to eat for the lunch stop. Big loops that have bail-outs I just carry a second bottle and wing it.
Discussing batteries with a nephew that manages an electric car production line recently I can not see why we should not see 800-1000Wh batteries in a form factor smaller & lighter than the current 504Wh batteries.

 

[33red]

Just fitted a 700Wh battery in my Levo but have only had a short ride due to absolutely crap weather & illness. IF I can do my 46km loop with power remaining I will be happy.
Would like to see something bigger available for all-day adventure rides as carrying a spare just plain sucks IMHO. I only ever use a backpack on 80-100k or longer rides so I can carry a few bits & bobs to jury rig any crash damage & a bite to eat for the lunch stop. Big loops that have bail-outs I just carry a second bottle and wing it.
Discussing batteries with a nephew that manages an electric car production line recently I can not see why we should not see 800-1000Wh batteries in a form factor smaller & lighter than the current 504Wh batteries.

Other than the weight, 1,000 Wh would be very expansive. They are edging that way. From 400, than 500, some 600 Wh now 700. There will be some ceiling. They brag about low weight, they build heavier. Just here in Quebec, Canada i went to a Norco Demo, tried their only Ebike and liked the feel. Large battery = 8,000$ than 15% tx = 9,200$ no way i will pay 9,200$ for a bike. I think it is 700 Wh imagine 850 or more? That will kill the market. Many will not respect the max legal speed so bans will happen. Small motors and 500 Wh is the way to keep our toys in my opinion.

 

[knut7]

Discussing batteries with a nephew that manages an electric car production line recently I can not see why we should not see 800-1000Wh batteries in a form factor smaller & lighter than the current 504Wh batteries.

As far as I can tell, ~260Wh/kg is the maximum energy density that is widely available today. 21700 cells with 5000mAh and 18650 cells with 3600mAh is about 260Wh/kg. A few more watthours than what was available in 2015/2016 when the 18650 3500mAh appeared, allthough it's debatable wether there actually is any difference between the 3500mAh and the 3600mAh cells. When we see lot's of manufacturers introducing batteries of about 600-700Wh these days, it's nothing that couldn't be done 2 years ago. A battery with 50 of the "old" 18650 3500mAh is 630Wh, 60 cells is 750Wh.

We're all waiting for improved energy density, but I'm not aware they're available atm. They may exist though, and your nephew's comment suggests this is true. There's a lot of secrecy when it comes to battery development. Battery/car manufacturers are constantly researching to improve energy density. But more importantly I believe they are trying to get cost down. Today's battery technology makes electric cars perfectly useable, so I believe any development in battery technology will need to result in lower battery cost. There's a lot of speculation regarding Tesla's aquisition of Maxwell, the "dry electrode" technology is believed to significantly improve cost and energy density. Energy density is claimed to be 300Wh/kg today, with room for improvement. And dry electrode tech supposed to make the battery production cleaner. But I don't know if this tech is already in production. And I think it's safe to assume that other manufacturers are working on similar stuff. If new battery tech is currently seeing it's way to electric cars, it may find it's way to emtbs in a year or two. I believe this is a best case scenario though.

The Maxwell tech is about 20% of an energy density improvement over the 3500mAh cells used in the 504Wh batteries. This improvement is not enough to make a 800-1000Wh weighing less than todays 504Wh batteries. But, as I've said, I don't know what's going on behind closed doors and I'm not gonna say that's impossible.

 

[Rusty]

Other than the weight, 1,000 Wh would be very expansive. They are edging that way. From 400, than 500, some 600 Wh now 700. There will be some ceiling. They brag about low weight, they build heavier. Just here in Quebec, Canada i went to a Norco Demo, tried their only Ebike and liked the feel. Large battery = 8,000$ than 15% tx = 9,200$ no way i will pay 9,200$ for a bike. I think it is 700 Wh imagine 850 or more? That will kill the market. Many will not respect the max legal speed so bans will happen. Small motors and 500 Wh is the way to keep our toys in my opinion.

Irrelevant.
Can buy a 2000Watt bike now - which is illegal in most countries. But that has little to do with the subject - we are talking Watt/Hours, or battery capacity if you wish. Many like myself want bigger batteries so we can do long point to point runs. If just doing loops you can swap batteries after 1/2/3 or whatever and do it all again, but no good if you have 100-120km from start to finish of a trail with no bailout points.

 

[Rusty]

Didn't quote all your post as it was pretty much spot on.

But more importantly I believe they are trying to get cost down.

Cost and weight are the two major areas i believe.

The Maxwell tech is about 20% of an energy density improvement over the 3500mAh cells used in the 504Wh batteries. This improvement is not enough to make a 800-1000Wh weighing less than todays 504Wh batteries. But, as I've said, I don't know what's going on behind closed doors and I'm not gonna say that's impossible.

That is really zeroing in on where we need to be. With the reduced weight you can stay with say a 504Wh that is 20% smaller and lighter than a current unit. Also allows a little more freedom for battery pack form factor, making for a nicer front tube size and styling. Also carrying a smaller,lighter second battery less of an issue.

 

[dogzilla]

I want 1500wh.

I do a lot of road riding and like covering a lot of ground. Biggest ride I did was 240km. Not sure how practical it is on a mountain bike but I'd love to do big cross country trails.

 

[knut7]

@Rusty - It seems to me the weight is becoming less of an issue. The Hyundai Ioniq EV 28kWh is the most efficient car. It weighs 1.435kg. The Tesla Model 3 Standard Range with about 55kWh battery is almost as efficient and it's 1.630kg. Both these cars are way more efficient than the BMW i3 that weighs just 1.195kg. Weight definitely is a priority, but it seems it's not as high on the list of priorities as it used to be. But improved energy density will eventually lead to lower weight. I digress :-o

For bikes battery weight definitely is important. And I agree, getting a 504Wh battery that is 20% smaller will have a big impact on frame design. I think this is just as exciting as improved range.

 

[33red]

Irrelevant.
Can buy a 2000Watt bike now - which is illegal in most countries. But that has little to do with the subject - we are talking Watt/Hours, or battery capacity if you wish. Many like myself want bigger batteries so we can do long point to point runs. If just doing loops you can swap batteries after 1/2/3 or whatever and do it all again, but no good if you have 100-120km from start to finish of a trail with no bailout points.

Many do 60-90 minutes rides. With all that energy stored you are smart enough to understand it is easy to exceed the speed limit set.

 

[Jamsxr]

Such a wide variety of requirements!

My 500wh battery can last 4 hours on the trail with a decent amount of climbing (circa 1400 meters), for the sort of enduro style riding I do, after 4 hours I’m also done! The thing with an eBike is that I’m covering so much more ground so I’m worn out quicker from the downhills, 90 minutes at a bike park the other week got me the equivalent of almost 5 hours on my MTB ?

I’m hoping to see a new Shimano motor with a >600wh battery like the Bosh, I can’t see myself needing more than that.

 

[Macone]

Each to their own I guess. I weigh 114kg so an extra 500gms or so for extra wh's is worth it. I currently use both of my 378wh batteries on my Jam2, regularly. Most rides are around 50km with approx 850m (2788 feet for those of you living in the dark ages) of climbing. I usually have two bars left (out of five) on my second battery. Some rides are 65km with 1100M (3609 feet) of climbing and on those rides I start getting "range anxiety". I also do the odd 80km road ride with 1500m (4921 feet) of climbing with "bugger all" range left on the second battery. At not stage would another 500gms bother me, or in reality, make any difference to my ride, other than allowing me to extend it for more grinning. Would love to be one of you skinny light weight fella's where the 500gms would matter, but at 58 years old, that's just never gonna happen again. I don't reckon i'm the "exception to the rule" for ebike owners. I've had my bike nearly 10 months and will continue to churn out the km's with a huge grin on my face, with 3400km covered so far. Would I like the new Simplon Rapcon with 1125wh (using both batteries)? Hell yes!! but they aren't available yet and I can't afford one but still, Hell Yes!!!

 

[Rusty]

Many do 60-90 minutes rides. With all that energy stored you are smart enough to understand it is easy to exceed the speed limit set.

And your point is?

Many want to do all day rides without having to carry a spare battery. I met a Dutch couple last summer that were touring the world and were limited by their battery range.
If you do 60-90 minute rides and are a smaler/lighter person then you could probably get away with a smaller battery. A buddy has a Focus with a 378Wh internal battery and a 378Wh external. He only ads the external when he is doing serious distances as at 78kg he gets a lot more distance than others he rides with.