OK, so I have looked at some of the specs of the L-ion 18650 and 21700 cells that seem to be most prevalent in ebikes, and I can see that the C ratings for charging are very low - 1/3-1/4C in general. I had no idea these packs were so different to the LiPos and LiFePO4s with which I am familiar from RC. I guess these cells are chosen for safety (they are hard rather than pouch case) and longevity (they should lose less of their capacity when stored for long periods at elevated state of charge compared to a LiPo), but it does appear cell charging performance suffers dramatically as a result. It makes me wonder what cell chemistry Haibike are using in this bike to get a near 1C charge performance...
Haibike FLYON, 120Nm motor, 630Wh battery with quick charge
- Thread starter Rob Rides EMTB
- Start date
The more that I look at this bike, the more that I consider it to be a complete disaster, and really Rob, if you are reviewing bikes, you should keep your eye more open to design flaws and potential end user hassle.
To begin the list, I shall start at the front end.
Integrated lights whilst desirable on a road bike, are a complete waste of time on an off road bike, and in the case of the light as fitted to this bike, it along with the display, prevent any change of stem set up should it be required for rider comfort or set up. In the case of the rear lights, one wet and muddy ride, will see those rendered useless, and if the marks on my seat stays are anything to go by, broken as well. It should also be noted that to be marketed in the UK with lights fitted, they would need to be BS approved, and that isn't likely to happen.
The built in widescreen TV size console, is again another pointless addition to an eMTB. It's position prevents stem replacement, and out on ride adjustments. Less is more in respect of consoles, especially when it comes to damage protection.
The honey comb vents on the headstock to keep the battery cool, firstly indicate that there is a design flaw in that the battery must be susceptible to overheating. One wet muddy ride would see these vents, blocked, and render any cooling useless. Given that heat build up is generated at its greatest during long climbs, the vents are going to be ineffective, as speed would be required to make them work. Also why would anyone in their right mind, design an element of a bike, that allows water and mud to enter the frame in such a way.
Finally on the subject of the vents, it is a pretty poor attention to detail to run the cables through them.
The battery and motor. No one other than someone trying to substitute a motorcycle in favour of a pedelec, needs the quoted 120nm or torque, and you are far from wrong on that one Rob.
More torque will also drain the battery significantly faster, and in reality, the range will probably be no more that the current offerings from other manufacturers.
More torque will also place more strain and drivetrain components, so these will either need to manufactured specifically for use, or owners will just be replacing and or braking things sooner.
The fins on either side of the motor, are undoubtedly going to be a magnet for dirt and crud, and who knows where it could all end going to. One thing is certain, it won't end well, and at the minimum, will make cleaning a complete nightmare.
I also don't buy into the fast charging either. For longevity, a slow charge is always going to be better, and who wants to interrupt a ride with a 50 minute break, and where exactly. Cafe owners etc are soon going to get fed up with offering free charging in exchange for one cup of coffee and cake.
Switching to the rear suspension, what on earth is that main pivot point all about. Designing it as an integrated section as they have, when compressed, crud and muck is going to enter from below, so opening the joint, and progressively altering the set up and leading to wear. I'd love to know how they suggest that anyone clean and maintain the area.
The rear sensor is not only going to be yet another potential trap for debris etc, it also prevents anyone from changing out to their own wheel set. Why would anyone want a bike that they couldn't potentially swap wheel sets.
The rear lights have already been covered.
More to add when I get a better chance to sit down and study the bike further.
To begin the list, I shall start at the front end.
Integrated lights whilst desirable on a road bike, are a complete waste of time on an off road bike, and in the case of the light as fitted to this bike, it along with the display, prevent any change of stem set up should it be required for rider comfort or set up. In the case of the rear lights, one wet and muddy ride, will see those rendered useless, and if the marks on my seat stays are anything to go by, broken as well. It should also be noted that to be marketed in the UK with lights fitted, they would need to be BS approved, and that isn't likely to happen.
The built in widescreen TV size console, is again another pointless addition to an eMTB. It's position prevents stem replacement, and out on ride adjustments. Less is more in respect of consoles, especially when it comes to damage protection.
The honey comb vents on the headstock to keep the battery cool, firstly indicate that there is a design flaw in that the battery must be susceptible to overheating. One wet muddy ride would see these vents, blocked, and render any cooling useless. Given that heat build up is generated at its greatest during long climbs, the vents are going to be ineffective, as speed would be required to make them work. Also why would anyone in their right mind, design an element of a bike, that allows water and mud to enter the frame in such a way.
Finally on the subject of the vents, it is a pretty poor attention to detail to run the cables through them.
The battery and motor. No one other than someone trying to substitute a motorcycle in favour of a pedelec, needs the quoted 120nm or torque, and you are far from wrong on that one Rob.
More torque will also drain the battery significantly faster, and in reality, the range will probably be no more that the current offerings from other manufacturers.
More torque will also place more strain and drivetrain components, so these will either need to manufactured specifically for use, or owners will just be replacing and or braking things sooner.
The fins on either side of the motor, are undoubtedly going to be a magnet for dirt and crud, and who knows where it could all end going to. One thing is certain, it won't end well, and at the minimum, will make cleaning a complete nightmare.
I also don't buy into the fast charging either. For longevity, a slow charge is always going to be better, and who wants to interrupt a ride with a 50 minute break, and where exactly. Cafe owners etc are soon going to get fed up with offering free charging in exchange for one cup of coffee and cake.
Switching to the rear suspension, what on earth is that main pivot point all about. Designing it as an integrated section as they have, when compressed, crud and muck is going to enter from below, so opening the joint, and progressively altering the set up and leading to wear. I'd love to know how they suggest that anyone clean and maintain the area.
The rear sensor is not only going to be yet another potential trap for debris etc, it also prevents anyone from changing out to their own wheel set. Why would anyone want a bike that they couldn't potentially swap wheel sets.
The rear lights have already been covered.
More to add when I get a better chance to sit down and study the bike further.
Donnie797
Well-known member
totally agree on these design flaws, I thought all of this as well when I watched that bike. Just the fast charge i see different - it does work for cars why not for the same cells in bikes?
Mabman
E*POWAH Elite World Champion
Me too. To my knowledge this is the highest mAh battery available in the 21700 format: https://www.bmz-group.com/dokumente/BMZ-21700-50EL_36629.pdf As it is not a good idea to charge a battery cell beyond is rated capacity, especially 3A, I don't think that is the one in use. They are tight with BMZ though and maybe they are already on the next level of cell that the data is not published yet on.
Regardless they do provide a higher rate of charge than any 18650 cell commonly used for eBikes. Baby steps......
I still maintain that the battery is the heart of an eBike. The most powerful motor system available will not reach its full potential unless it has the most powerful battery available on board no matter how many watt hours it is. A more powerful than stock battery can also make the stock engine perform better.
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Yeah its like Haibike know nothing about e-bike design isn't it.
I don't think anyone on here except Rob can really comment on the bike as no one has ridden it and there are no proper reviews on it yet, yet alone poked around it in the flesh.
You can speculate all you want, but to draw any conclusions is ridiculous.
Light and screen are detachable/optional from what i have seen, and fit any bar.
Venting is nothing new on e-mtbs - i don't think i have seen any Focus owners on here complaining about blocked vents and those on the Jam are in a "worse" position to get clogged than the Haibike.
How is the torque delivered? how does the software manage the battery use? Does anyone outside of Haibike know? Nope
Pivot point? Sensor? impossible to tell or know until you ride or own the bike.
Magnet for crud, you mean like all the casings on the other motors?, Not like a levo/brose or a shimano get a ton of crud stuck behind the shrouds is it, hidden away from view just itching to screw up the wiring?
Not trying to have a go at you , but Rob is reporting back from Eurobike with a great look at one of the greatest innovations yet in e-mtbs, not doing any sort of proper review on it, and one of the best things about his reviews is he looks and picks up on the annoying things that most magazine interviews gloss over.
We have one thread of Specialized owners hoping for a new levo with a more powerful motor and a bigger battery, and this thread which has a bike that is pretty much that, but is getting slated, most probably because its a Haibike - now i have no love for Haibike, but they are the world leaders in E-Mtbs, they pretty much invented the e-mtb as we know it, so i cant help but laugh when you assume they have produced a dud!
Blackbird
Member
And the 120nm argument you use @EddieJ is exactly the same as anti ebike people use against all ebikes..
I just sold one of my motorcycles. An older Honda Blackbird (surprising i know). 164 (claimed) bhp. No electronic stability or anything. Not even abs. That bike had more power then anyone ever needs. Did not end in tears, it was as smooth the top of my head. It is not just about the power, it is how usable it is.
I just sold one of my motorcycles. An older Honda Blackbird (surprising i know). 164 (claimed) bhp. No electronic stability or anything. Not even abs. That bike had more power then anyone ever needs. Did not end in tears, it was as smooth the top of my head. It is not just about the power, it is how usable it is.
The more that I look at this bike, the more I'm sure it will be a huge success!
After bikes with piggyback battery and motor, bikes with more or less hidden electric components, we have here something designed from the begining as an electric bike.
After bikes with piggyback battery and motor, bikes with more or less hidden electric components, we have here something designed from the begining as an electric bike.
Why not?
I've wondered if Haibike made the wrong decision when starting this project in 2015. Back then there was more focus on power I guess. Now there seems to be less focus on power and more on weight and geometry. I was a bit surprised to see Haibike launching a 4kg motor, when many other manufacturers are going sub 3kg. The inventor stated in an interview that this motor was limitied to 120nm continous and that it could deliver more power. I can't help but thinking they could have created a sub 3kg motor with say 90nm if they wanted. That could/should be their next step. This bike appears to be sort of a touring bike. I guess it's a market for such a bike too. But all this is speculation, and I definitely want to do a review of this bike.
(Yeah, I know, the nm measurement is a bit weird. But in my experience it seems to give an indication, even between brands.)
(Yeah, I know, the nm measurement is a bit weird. But in my experience it seems to give an indication, even between brands.)
They can't be wrong in the end. Haibike and Lapierre belongs to the same group...
Donnie797
Well-known member
I'm very sceptic about this bike and the "more torque!" movement. We will see in future and then we come back here and discuss again
Blackbird
Member
Well according to the TQ site there will also be a 45 km/h s-pedelec version, a very developing market. I'm sure a few extra nm will come in handy for that.
Mabman
E*POWAH Elite World Champion
"Well according to the TQ site there will also be a 45 km/h s-pedelec version, a very developing market."
After reading the motor specs and seeing the lighting package that is what I thought it would be good for. Slap on a plate holder, a rear view mirror and some slicks and you'd have a dandy Super Pedelec that is actually able to not just get to 28mph but stay there for awhile. Maybe even some drop bars as there has to be a steerer tube in there somewhere.
Still my question is, as others, how the heck they are advertising a 10A charge rate when the strongest cells, that I know of at least, are 7A max charge rate.
After reading the motor specs and seeing the lighting package that is what I thought it would be good for. Slap on a plate holder, a rear view mirror and some slicks and you'd have a dandy Super Pedelec that is actually able to not just get to 28mph but stay there for awhile. Maybe even some drop bars as there has to be a steerer tube in there somewhere.
Still my question is, as others, how the heck they are advertising a 10A charge rate when the strongest cells, that I know of at least, are 7A max charge rate.
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Blackbird
Member
If you put 2 x 7a cells in paralel you can charge them with 14a.
Mabman
E*POWAH Elite World Champion
As I understand it maximum charge rate is based on the individual cells capacity and p'ing them doesn't change that and in fact is necessary for them to even be charged at a full 7A as per this snippet from an engineer at a well known German battery supplier regarding a 21700 cell battery we have under development for open source use here in the US.:
The basic spec of the battery so far using the 50EL cell:
- 13S3P
- 46.8V Nominal
- 15Ah Nominal
- 42A max continuous discharge (based on 3 cells in parallel)
- 7A max charge (based on 3 cells in parallel)
Blackbird
Member
If 7a is already based on 3 cells in parallel then yeah, you would need 6 in parallel (not practical) for 14a.
If you have 3 cells that each can charge at 1a and discharge at 5a, if you put them in parallel you can draw 15a max (each cell delivers 5a) and charge them with 3a max (each cell receives 1a).
Also i don't see why it would be neccesary to charge them at 7a? It says max, not minimum?
If you have 3 cells that each can charge at 1a and discharge at 5a, if you put them in parallel you can draw 15a max (each cell delivers 5a) and charge them with 3a max (each cell receives 1a).
Also i don't see why it would be neccesary to charge them at 7a? It says max, not minimum?
Donnie797
Well-known member
Haibike just said they have a 10A charger - not that the used cells can be charged with 10A. Who knows how many cells they've wired in parallel?
Mabman
E*POWAH Elite World Champion
"Also i don't see why it would be neccesary to charge them at 7a?"
Only to get a quick refill during the course of the day as necessary? I have a 500wh battery that I can ride for up to 4hrs. on and quite frankly I am worn out a bit before the battery dies. There are some rides though that require more energy due to the nature of the terrain and more aggressive riding that uses more wh's/km and can cut that time in half. Given that you are near a plug in and don't mind taking an hour break, a % enough can be added to be able to continue on with that style for another session, although not as long. So I see it as not being an everyday event that you would charge at that high a rate.
In order however to attain high charge rates you need a charger that will put out the necessary A to cover. Smart chargers are not new and I had my first one that was a Bosch that was used with 18v cordless drills I used for my business. About all I can say was it worked and halved the time it took with the stock charger.
This is a link to a smart charger that is capable of producing up to an 8A charge that is fully programmable to any charge rate desired, as well as any v and cell structure. Not cheap but factored in to the potential for extended charge cycles due to good charge management can perhaps pay for itself over the life of a battery?
The Satiator, Programmable Battery Charger
Only to get a quick refill during the course of the day as necessary? I have a 500wh battery that I can ride for up to 4hrs. on and quite frankly I am worn out a bit before the battery dies. There are some rides though that require more energy due to the nature of the terrain and more aggressive riding that uses more wh's/km and can cut that time in half. Given that you are near a plug in and don't mind taking an hour break, a % enough can be added to be able to continue on with that style for another session, although not as long. So I see it as not being an everyday event that you would charge at that high a rate.
In order however to attain high charge rates you need a charger that will put out the necessary A to cover. Smart chargers are not new and I had my first one that was a Bosch that was used with 18v cordless drills I used for my business. About all I can say was it worked and halved the time it took with the stock charger.
This is a link to a smart charger that is capable of producing up to an 8A charge that is fully programmable to any charge rate desired, as well as any v and cell structure. Not cheap but factored in to the potential for extended charge cycles due to good charge management can perhaps pay for itself over the life of a battery?
The Satiator, Programmable Battery Charger
Blackbird
Member
No i get that it would be usefull, ofcourse. But i read your post “in fact it is neccesary to charge them at 7a” as in that it would be required to do so.
If i could get 80% in an hour, i could go over to friends 40 km away on turbo, charge while having coffee and cycle back, very nice to have.
If i could get 80% in an hour, i could go over to friends 40 km away on turbo, charge while having coffee and cycle back, very nice to have.
DEADMEAT
New Member
The fact that i think that any bike with fixed front and rear lights, and a massive computer, might be the best looking bike i've ever seen, means i'm either too old and losing my ability to know what cool is, or this really is one of the best looking bikes ever...
Never thought I would ever be lusting for a Haibike! Yamaha and Bosch make my least favorite motors and we sell bikes that use both
I see they are now taking Pre order deposits on this site with a delivery of March/April.
2 payment options,
£199.00 or the full price.
Haibike xDuro AllMtn 10.0 FLYON 2019
2 payment options,
£199.00 or the full price.
Haibike xDuro AllMtn 10.0 FLYON 2019
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VaseLEVO
New Member
Screw the dealer. Go elsewhere and get what you want. It’s you who will ride it not them. And your money paying for it. As for specialized discounting older models I don’t know why you care that much. Just go enjoy your bike now and they’ll do whatever they will. Life is short not worth missing out on because of what might happen in a future you don’t even know if you’ll be lucky enough to enjoy.
By the way I had your same exact experience. I just went online looked for other dealers around, read reviews and picked one went to check them out. As it turned out they were great and not once did they try to steer my purchase. I had a great experience and am glad to give them my business
Marke
Member
To be road legal it needs to be 250w nominal same as every other ebike, otherwise its a motorbike. Torque number is marketing bs. To increase the torque number all they need to do is reduce the speed of the motor output shaft.
Galvo
New Member
Last thing you would want surely on a performance emtb is a large display and a headlight? Is it easily removable? Everybody raved about it but it seems to be going the wrong way in regards to weight. To much tech means more things to go wrong. Now other bikes have come out a few kg lighter I wonder if they can manage to shave some weight on the final production model? ut of my price range anyway but I think even if it was in there is look elsewhere or at there other models.
This site now says expected first delivery in July/September 2019.
Ouch
Why not?
Headlight is very handy when you ride in the dark?
And in Finland at least bike has to have front and rear light when you ride in the dark.
Haibike Flyon has integrated rear lights, which is a big plus, imo.
When @Rob Hancill visited them last month I believe he was told June, if it has now moved again that sort of implies they have production challenges which is a real shame. I can see loads of people cancelling their pre orders now
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