Haibike FLYON, 120Nm motor, 630Wh battery with quick charge

[Marke]

250w nominal does not mean anything, there is no limit on the maximum output. Yet.
It is not unthinkable the next e-bike limitation will be on maximum motor wattage instead of nominal.

I have a a specialized enduro with a 3000w after market kit which peaks at 7000w. Maybe I'll just stick a 250w nominal sticker on it? After all it put out 250w at 10% throttle so it's ok isn't it. Must be ok i think so. Come to think of it I might get a 250w sticker for my KTM 2 stroke dirtbike.

If the manufacturers start bending the law by producing more and more powerful motors eventually someone will hit a hiker or a child or something, it'll end up in court and ebikes will end up severely restricted/ banned.

Imho they should be competing on something other than motor power.

 

[Dax]

I have a a specialized enduro with a 3000w after market kit which peaks at 7000w.

Sorry for going off topic, but please can you post up some more info, maybe in a new thread? Sounds fascinating, I've been wanting to build an emoto for a while but haven't found the right setup.

Good point about the risk of elevated nominal powers BTW, although this thread is talking about torque not power and you could potentially build a high torque motor that is restricted to 250w by cutting torque as rpm increases.

 

[Marke]

Sorry for going off topic, but please can you post up some more info, maybe in a new thread? Sounds fascinating, I've been wanting to build an emoto for a while but haven't found the right setup.

Good point about the risk of elevated nominal powers BTW, although this thread is talking about torque not power and you could potentially build a high torque motor that is restricted to 250w by cutting torque as rpm increases.

I work in a bank so I'm not an expert but as far as i'm aware more torque requires more power measured in watts (volts *amp). Torque is just turning force, more force requires more power. There is a website called the endless-sphere.com which is what you need, thousands of threads on diy high power ebike builds.

 

[Dax]

Ahh I was thinking about power as in bhp, which is a function of tourqe and rpm. Time to revisit my high-school physics class.

 

[Marke]

Ahh I was thinking about power as in bhp, which is a function of tourqe and rpm. Time to revisit my high-school physics class.

I might be wrong and I'm always happy to learn something new Good luck with your diy ebike build!

 

[Dax]

You're entirely correct, P=IV. I'm waiting for someone more knowledgeable than me to come and explain this

How does your emoto ride? Hub motor?

 

[eFat]

There are 2 "sides", the electrical input and the mecanical output.

To generate a current you must apply a voltage. So the electrical power[W] = voltage[V] * current[A].

In an electrical motor torque is more or less a direct relation to current.

On the other "side" you get the mecanical power[W] = torque[Nm] * angular speed[rad/s].

 

[Dax]

So is the 250w limit refer to input electrical power or output mechanical power?

 

[eFat]

I would think it's the output power. It's the significant data for the user.

But again it's the maximum continuous rated power, i.e. a power that the motor can deliver "indefinitely".

 

[Dax]

So therefore the point about throttling torque to continuously provide 250w output stands? It should also be possible to calculate the maximum torque that motors would be able to legally produce, so we can identify when this arms race is done?

 

[Blackbird]

No you cannot calculate that, since you can increase torque delivered to the rear wheel by gearing. So you could have a motor that delivers 200 nm, but only at 10 rpm. That is also why just a nm figure does not tell us a great deal about actual performance.

 

[Dax]

No you cannot calculate that, since you can increase torque delivered to the rear wheel by gearing. So you could have a motor that delivers 200 nm, but only at 10 rpm. That is also why just a nm figure does not tell us a great deal about actual performance.

Is the 250w limit at the wheel or motor?

 

[eFat]

Is the 250w limit at the wheel or motor?

Motor.

 

[Ade]

Thats an awesome looking bike, I know I couldnt afford it, but I can dream

 

[Interpaul]

I think that bike looks hideous, over engineered and heavy looking. Hate the front and tail lights. I love motos, two KTMs in the garage but that bike is trying too hard to look like a Moto. It’s a MTB.

The eZesty on the other hand looks sweet,
Light and agile and gets my vote, will be interesting to see how it performs next year.

 

[Interpaul]

And I also really hate the crank/motor housing thing

 

[R120]

Looks a lot less like a moto than most downhill bikes, non?

I have had loads of off roaders, from Huskys to Hondas and i still don't think e-mtbs are remotely similar, either in looks or what they do. DH bikes are the closet thing to a MC visually and in terms of thing you do on them that crossover to motor (whips etc), and of those the Brooklyn Machine works, and HondaDH bike are probably the closest to a moto we have come.

Haibikes generally are not my cup of tea, mainly because i always think they look like a dogs dinner of parts shoved on a frame with a bad paint job, but there are a lot of features on this that i think are good, if you look at the videos of it its very well integrated and sleeker than it appears in the pics, especially when the optional headlight removed, and the lights appeal as most of my riding from October till April is done at night, and one of the great things about ebikes is the ability to power lights off the battery.

Like you the la pierre appeals more, but will really be interested in the first reviews of the Flyon

Haibikes existing EMTB Downhill bike is a lot more moto like!

 

[Interpaul]

I like the haibike DH bike, it looks similar to a conventional DH bike. The Flyon front and rear lights, the horrible crank thing and the air intakes on the front are just too non MTB for me. I read the review On ebike mag and it shows the front air intakes which seem stylistic overkill. Haibike FLYON bikes with TQ motor usher in a new era of integration | E-MOUNTAINBIKE Magazine

 

[eFat]

they look like a dogs dinner of parts shoved on a frame with a bad paint job

 

[Mabman]

250w nominal does not mean anything, there is no limit on the maximum output. Yet.
It is not unthinkable the next e-bike limitation will be on maximum motor wattage instead of nominal.

That's funny I have always been of the understanding that the law already had the limit set at maximum wattage?

"European Union directive 2002/24/EC exempts vehicles with the following definition from type approval: "Cycles with pedal assistance which are equipped with an auxiliary electric motor having a maximum continuous rated power of 0.25 kW, of which the output is progressively reduced and finally cut off as the vehicle reaches a speed of 25km/h (15.5mph) or if the cyclist stops pedaling." This is the de facto definition of an electrically assisted pedal cycle in the EU. As with all EU directives, individual member countries of the EU are left to implement the requirements in national legislation.

European product safety standard EN 15194 was published in 2009. The aim of EN 15194 is "to provide a standard for the assessment of electrically powered cycles of a type which are excluded from type approval by Directive 2002/24/EC"."

As an across the ponder that rides legal limit here bikes I don't have any skin in that game but just have always been curious how that works? I'm sure it is hashed out on here somewhere.

What sucks here is the Class I,II,III laws that are being enacted due to the influence of the manufactures and thier mouthpieces at the Bicycle Product Sales Association. We have existed just fine for years with the Federal and most states regs of 750w, doesn't specify nom or max, and speed limited to 20mph. All states can choose to either follow this or enact their own laws though they must adhere to the amendment to the Consumer Product Safety Commission known as HR 727.

"The text of HR 727 includes the statement: "This section shall supersede any State law or requirement with respect to low-speed electric bicycles to the extent that such State law or requirement is more stringent than the Federal law or requirements."

At speeds over 20mph bikes are subject to our Department of Transportation. Long list of shite to do there. Approved this, approved that, lights, horn, vin number, registration, far and above what the Speed Pedelec requirements over there are. So on the one end with the Class I pedelec only rating separating it from Class II for no other reason than it has a throttle is one thing. I know nobody likes throttles but in concert with a good TA and set to high torque/low speed they are very useful I find. I call it Class I.5. The Class II designation seems to allude to the fact that all anyone is going to do is ride the throttle exclusively. Which of course they can but they won't be going far as throttles are wh ogs and missing out on the best part of riding a bicycle. Pedaling it.

Class III clearly is non-compliant with HR 727 in that it is rated for 28mph putting it into the DOT zone.

Ebikes, while not as popular here as there, have been in use for just as long and the more generous wattage has led to all sorts of over volted bikes that haven't killed anyone yet to the best of my knowledge, and I've been hip to motor assist bikes for the last 18 yrs., but I am sure there has been plenty of road rash and broken bones. Some of the things I have seen are absolutely ridiculous but harmless in the fact that they wouldn't make it 50' on a trail system. Most of them stay on the road. There are exceptions for sure but so heavy and unwieldy that they wouldn't be much fun to ride. With the advent of access to dependable trail worthy legal wattage systems that do meet the regs it seems like those efforts are dwindling.

 

[Blackbird]

The maximimum continuous power or the nomimal power is the power a motorsystem can put out indefinitely.
The maximum peak power is the maximum power a motorsystem can put out for short periods of time.
For instance:
A Bosch classic line motor has a nominal rating of 250 watts, a maximum power of 295 and puts out 40 nm.

A Bosch performance line cx has a nominal rating of 250 watts, a maximum power of 600 watts and puts out 75m.

There is no limit to the maximum power and no real test for nomimal power.

But hey i'm not complaining, i love power.

 

[Mabman]

Thanks for that clarification Blackbird.

 

[jfkbike]

No interest here from me. Lapierre seems to be heading in the direction as does Focus that interests me. But I may be an outlier!

 

[Rob Rides EMTB]

If anyone has a disqus account can you post in the comments for them to remove my pictures (this is why I’ve started watermarking everything now!) Haibike’s new FLYON electric bicycles are so powerful they need an air intake

 

[Rob Rides EMTB]

If anyone has a disqus account can you post in the comments for them to remove my pictures (this is why I’ve started watermarking everything now!) Haibike’s new FLYON electric bicycles are so powerful they need an air intake

No worries I’ve emailed them directly ?

 

[Blackbird]

What a bunch of b.... well let them at least link to this site, that way everybody profits!

 

[Mabman]

Life's changing and so are it's lessons.

 

[Rob Rides EMTB]

All sorted ?

 

[MattyB]

Changing back to an earlier topic...

80% charge on a 630Wh battery in one-hour... These are some impressive claims.

Useful yes, impressive, not so much. When I started to read about ebikes I was amazed at how slow the batteries are being charged - my Dad's Bosch powered Trek takes 4 hours, a 1/4C charge rate. By contrast my RC lipo batteries (admittedly a slightly different chemistry, but still lithium) can be charged at 5C - that's a full charge from flat in 12 mins! I prefer to charge larger numbers of packs of the same voltage in parallel at lower rates, but with modern lipos 2C charge rates (a full charge in 30 mins) are considered standard without shortening cycle life or capacity.

So why have ebikes historically been charged so slowly? I may be to do with the high capacities meaning there are a lot of cells to balance internally during the charge, but my more pessimistic guess is that manufacturers didn't want to increase the sticker price further by adding in a high capacity (500W+) PSU and charger. Either way whilst this increase in charge speed is welcome don't be fooled into thinking it's innovative - it has always been possible from the moment lithium based cells were used in ebikes.

 

[Mabman]

Charge rate is determined by the maximum charge rate of the individual cells. The LG 21700 is rated for 7A so you could charge a 15ah battery 50% in one hour and 85% if you take a longer break by 45 minutes or so. Depends on how many V your motor is how many watt hours if will be.