GIANT Trance "Bench Test" Rig

[Evolution Stu]

Hi folks,
Not been posting of late as been crazy busy at work and havent been able to concentrate on much else thanks to COVID giving me a pay free year off work.

Anyway...
I decided to do a quick video of my home test rig as I know many GIANT Trance E-Bike owners are plagued with reliability problems and this quite inexpensive test rig will help you identify problems very quickly.

It’s worth noting that there are more than one harness options for these bikes so you would need to identify the right one for yours.
(I’ve seen 3 and 4 pin connectors on MY19 and MY20 bikes)

The charging port is not included in my rig (yet) as it’s unneeded to power up and operate the bike.
(tried and tested by riding my bike without one for weeks)

Hope the video is of some value to someone as I know how frustrating they can be when all you want to do is ride with your pals and you can’t after shelling out thousands for the latest bikes.

This Motor has been dead since May, and GIANTS week 29 delivery schedule has just been put back to week 33.
Absolutely cured of their parts delays to be fair...

Wish I could buy a spare motor, so if anyone knows of one... I am in the market!


Edited to add:
I have another loom, controller and battery on the bike of course so this setup is specifically to test a redundant, brand new loom and controller with a 2nd battery against the motor as that is the only Item I dont have multiple units of.


Here are parts 2 and 3 I made later.



Part 2: (Bearing Play)



Part 3: (New Motor Arrived)

 

[Evolution Stu]

Purely as an update. My motor landed with the store today, so anyone waiting for motors it looks like they just landed in the UK for the first time since May.

GIANT have chosen not to answer multiple E-Mails enquitring what we are all supposed to do when the warranty expires and GIANT wont allow us to buy motors from them.

 

[John208]

Purely as an update. My motor landed with the store today, so anyone waiting for motors it looks like they just landed in the UK for the first time since May.

GIANT have chosen not to answer multiple E-Mails enquitring what we are all supposed to do when the warranty expires and GIANT wont allow us to buy motors from them.

Thanks well explained,How much are they stinging you for a motor

 

[Evolution Stu]

Thanks well explained,How much are they stinging you for a motor

Nothing pal. It’s still under warranty.
Its all done now as my LBS aare awesome and have me back on teh bike same day parts land.

She is up and running again and heading back to the mountains tomorrow ! ??

 

[John208]

Nothing pal. It’s still under warranty.
mall done now. Up and running again and heading back to the mountains tomorrow ! ??

Thats good ,mines out of warranty now but still fine,Its done 2000 miles now .I dont think with a motor you would get much change from 1K

 

[Evolution Stu]

I have been discussing the lack of motors availability with GIANT U.K. recently and they have now confirmed to me in writing that you can buy a Yamaha PWX2/GIANT Syncdrive Pro motorl outright from your local GIANT dealer.

The price of this in the UK including VAT is £1080

 

[John208]

I have been discussing the lack of motors availability with GIANT U.K. recently and they have now confirmed to me in writing that you can buy a Yamaha PWX2/GIANT Syncdrive Pro motorl outright from your local GIANT dealer.

The price of this in the UK including VAT is £1080

Crazy money,they should be able to offer a refurbishment service.I know bearing replacement is available from a company on here but If the problem is the electronics then were screwed

 

[Evolution Stu]

Crazy money,they should be able to offer a refurbishment service.I know bearing replacement is available from a company on here but If the problem is the electronics then were screwed

The chap did mention a refurbishment option being available too, but my LBS couldn’t find out anything about that.

Isuspect that as the oldest bikes are coming out of warranty this is a situation they may now be addressing.

My plan was to buy a spare and then as soon as the in use motor exhibits any bearing play get it out and new bearings installed at my leisure whilst using the spare.

Not a cheap solution to poor reliability admittedly, but good for my mential health as the mountains are kind of my church, I need them in my life weekly ?

 

[Jackware]

@Bearing Man

Are spares available for the Yamaha motors?

Are you able to work on them?

 

[Evolution Stu]

I did a quick video of the play on the bearings that eventually caused electronic failure. I suspect the bearing cavitates moisture directly into the unit with the oval cyclic action becoming a water pump.

- YouTube

Enjoy the videos and music that you love, upload original content and share it all with friends, family and the world on YouTube.

youtube.com

 

[Bearing Man]

@Bearing Man

Are spares available for the Yamaha motors?

Are you able to work on them?

Yes and yes. The only issue we have is that we cannot get Giant software. Other than that, we can fix most things Yamaha.

 

[John208]

I did a quick video of the play on the bearings that eventually caused electronic failure. I suspect the bearing cavitates moisture directly into the unit with the oval cyclic action becoming a water pump.

- YouTube

Enjoy the videos and music that you love, upload original content and share it all with friends, family and the world on YouTube.

youtube.com

How many miles did that engine last before you noticed the bearing failure

 

[Evolution Stu]

How many miles did that engine last before you noticed the bearing failure

I am averaging around 700miles per motor if I remember correctly. The play starts to become an issue at around 500 or so.

The problem for me is that isn’t a long time period. I have done 97miles and 18’000 ft of off road Lake District descent since I got this new motor back 11 days ago.

 

[malc101]

Great job on the test rig and especially the video. I'm thinking of buying a harness to modify by adding some telemetry to the bike to see how much current I use in different places, and figure out how and when the EnergyPack Plus does it's work. I must say I am a bit scared of posts like this since I ride deep into back country. Having a motor shut off would be a major problem. Pushing an adventure ride loaded trance at 70 lbs plus would be close to impossible. I guess, for month long van trips with the ebike I will need $2k worth of spares, including a spare battery and motor.

 

[Evolution Stu]

Great job on the test rig and especially the video. I'm thinking of buying a harness to modify by adding some telemetry to the bike to see how much current I use in different places, and figure out how and when the EnergyPack Plus does it's work. I must say I am a bit scared of posts like this since I ride deep into back country. Having a motor shut off would be a major problem. Pushing an adventure ride loaded trance at 70 lbs plus would be close to impossible. I guess, for month long van trips with the ebike I will need $2k worth of spares, including a spare battery and motor.

Fingers crossed she will be ok for you mate.
Pretty sure every issue i have ever had has been moisture related.

I suspect water / humidity makes it to the motor circuitry itself because this time I bought new everything. Motor, bettery main connector, loom and Ride Control 1. Whole electrical system brand new, then rubberised with this stuff...

And still she shuts down from time to time and I lose her for a couple of hours.

 

[malc101]

That's quite a waterproofing job! I ride in the cold a lot. So, I guess, I will treat this bike like my camera equipment to prevent condensation, which can be just as bad as water infiltration. I will bring bike into 45 degree garage first, then at some point bring the whole bike or battery indoors. I am hoping that mine, being a just produced one, has some refinement based on the trouble others have had. I suspect that the thousands of people with good luck do not post, so, as usual, most people are happy with their bike. Note that my Haibike Full Seven had a weird yamaha motor issue after 250 miles, where manual pedalling would become very difficult once in a while. The motor was replaced without down time. Question: Do you know if the Sport version of the motor is electrically and mechanically compatible with the Pro version?

 

[Evolution Stu]

I am sure most are ok to be fair.
I guess it’s a useage / level of abuse thing coming into play also. Mine does big miles on rough terrain with a pretty heavy guy aboard. That plays hell with the motor bearings.

Question: Do you know if the Sport version of the motor is electrically and mechanically compatible with the Pro version?

I am afraid I’ve no clue.
Would be interested to know myself.

 

[Bearing Man]

I am sure most are ok to be fair.
I guess it’s a useage / level of abuse thing coming into play also. Mine does big miles on rough terrain with a pretty heavy guy aboard. That plays hell with the motor bearings.



I am afraid I’ve no clue.
Would be interested to know myself.

Don't worry Stu, no one is heavy enough to cause any noticeable bearing wear, no matter how rough the terrain. The bearings in your motor are large enough to withstand twice what you could ever throw at them.

To answer malc101's question: The 'Giant SyncDrive Sport' is based in a Yamaha PW-SE and the 'Giant SyncDrive Pro' is based on the Yamaha PW-X and X2. They are very different motors, both electronically and mechanically.

 

[Evolution Stu]

Don't worry Stu, no one is heavy enough to cause any noticeable bearing wear, no matter how rough the terrain. The bearings in your motor are large enough to withstand twice what you could ever throw at them.

Morning pal,
Sorry, i probably should have elaborated.
I was referring more to the difference in wear between different bike useage scenarios:

To try and elaborate further.

Scenario 1:
A 50 Kg Rider does 500 miles, 90% fully seated, on fireroads and tarmac.


Scenario 2:
A 50 Kg rider does 500 miles 50/50 bike parks and fireroads so around 70% of the time his weight is seated.


Scenario 3:
A 50 Kg Rider does 500 miles downhill, in full attack position, almost never seated.

In these scenarios i expect the seated percentage to weigh heavily on the bearings life expectancy.
Rider 3 has his full bodyweight on the motor bearings at all times and the rougher the terrain the more impacts per minute are going through that bearing set as the bike and body work against each other to absorb terrain features in attack position.


I would expect rider 1 to probably get in excess of 10x the mileage from a set of motor bearings.
I hope that qualifies my train of thought a little better.

 

[Evolution Stu]

To answer malc101's question: The 'Giant SyncDrive Sport' is based in a Yamaha PW-SE and the 'Giant SyncDrive Pro' is based on the Yamaha PW-X and X2. They are very different motors, both electronically and mechanically.

I look forward to the day a 3rd party brings out a compatible motor we can fit to these bikes. £1100 is crazy to buy a spare!

 

[Bearing Man]

Morning pal,
Sorry, i probably should have elaborated.
I was referring more to the difference in wear between different bike useage scenarios:

To try and elaborate further.

Scenario 1:
A 50 Kg Rider does 500 miles, 90% fully seated, on fireroads and tarmac.


Scenario 2:
A 50 Kg rider does 500 miles 50/50 bike parks and fireroads so around 70% of the time his weight is seated.


Scenario 3:
A 50 Kg Rider does 500 miles downhill, in full attack position, almost never seated.

In these scenarios i expect the seated percentage to weigh heavily on the bearings life expectancy.
Rider 3 has his full bodyweight on the motor bearings at all times and the rougher the terrain the more impacts per minute are going through that bearing set as the bike and body work against each other to absorb terrain features in attack position.


I would expect rider 1 to probably get in excess of 10x the mileage from a set of motor bearings.
I hope that qualifies my train of thought a little better.

I totally get your thinking Stu, and if you managed to ride one of these motors far enough, I guess we may see a slight difference between the scenarios you mention above.
The real truth of the mater is: The bearings are genuinely good for 60,000 miles + on road or off (well maybe not the Pro bearings). The bearings would probably far outlast every other component on an off road bike! But, they would need to be kept clean and dry. This is not going to happen on any off-road bike, so weight and terrain should be last on the list of things to worry about.
For further re-assurance, we see these motors after some severe pedal strikes. Hard enough to snap the solid steel crankshaft! Still no issue with the bearings though.
And for a bit of perspective: The PW-SE or "Sport" has bearings 3 to 4 times the size of a standard peddle bikes bottom bracket.

 

[Bearing Man]

I look forward to the day a 3rd party brings out a compatible motor we can fit to these bikes. £1100 is crazy to buy a spare!

You would be able to fit the identical Yamaha equivalent motor into your bike for half the price... We have loads of them. But because Giant use their own proprietary software, you would also need to change the controller and battery. Giant also use their own battery fitments sometimes, so again, not easy. Shame really because every other Yamaha bike is easily fixable but Giant have completely nailed this down so you are beholden to them unless it's a mechanical motor issue, then this can still be fixed.

 

[Evolution Stu]

I totally get your thinking Stu, and if you managed to ride one of these motors far enough, I guess we may see a slight difference between the scenarios you mention above.
The real truth of the mater is: The bearings are genuinely good for 60,000 miles + on road or off (well maybe not the Pro bearings).

That would be nice...
I do get your point about bearing size and visually would agree with you. But my personal (And professional) experience tells me the bearings are proving to be problematic on these pro motor bikes when used off road.

Example:
I am on my 2nd bike.

First Bike (MY19 Trance E+3Pro) had a motor in the first at 817 miles. I later rejected the entire bike for wiring dramas at 1200miles.

The 2nd bike (MY20 Trance E+2Pro collect Feb20) has just had its 3rd motor due to bearing failure at 2500 miles.
2 motors were swopped out in the 700 mile region but the second one lasted a lot longer, in my opinion, due to lockdown and me riding the thing on Blackpool prom daily just to get out of the house.

The 1st in July 20 around 700 miles
The 2nd November 20 and that lasted about 1100 miles (Lockdown)
The 3rd was in May 21 at around 700 miles.

She is on 2880 miles today in December 21.
I seem to pretty religiously get to massive bearing play at around 7-800 miles (4-5months riding).


Edit:
I can note one thing though.
This last motor is MUCH quieter than any of my other 3 or my mates (Who have had 4 motors between them too. All Pros) and it seems to still have minimal play at 350miles and have stayed quiet. Maybe i finally got a good one?!

P.S:
I build race engines for a living so know better than to jetwash a bearing pack or electrical system.
This bike is wheels off hand washed whenever its washed at all. (rarely - i normally let the crap dry and just brush it down)

 

[Evolution Stu]

You would be able to fit the identical Yamaha equivalent motor into your bike for half the price... We have loads of them. But because Giant use their own proprietary software, you would also need to change the controller and battery. Giant also use their own battery fitments sometimes, so again, not easy. Shame really because every other Yamaha bike is easily fixable but Giant have completely nailed this down so you are beholden to them unless it's a mechanical motor issue, then this can still be fixed.

I recall you telling me this before when we were chatting about my Miss Friday as I call her.
Can the internal circuitry be swopped over to make it compatible witha Giant frame?

Example:
Take a proprietary Yamaha Motor from you brand new.
Install my GIANT circuit board and harness to it.

 

[DrStupid]

You would be able to fit the identical Yamaha equivalent motor into your bike for half the price... We have loads of them. But because Giant use their own proprietary software, you would also need to change the controller and battery. Giant also use their own battery fitments sometimes, so again, not easy. Shame really because every other Yamaha bike is easily fixable but Giant have completely nailed this down so you are beholden to them unless it's a mechanical motor issue, then this can still be fixed.

Have you confirmed that a standard Yamaha motor, will not turn ON the Giant battery?

I'd be willing to try a full swap from the Syncdrive system to a Yamaha, but the battery is a sticky issue.

I can confirm Giant will sell a spare motor...I have one.

 

[Evolution Stu]

I'd be willing to try a full swap from the Syncdrive system to a Yamaha, but the battery is a sticky issue.

Me too, as I have bought two of the damn things!

 

[DrStupid]

I'm curious now, would a US motor, in an otherwise English bike go 15 or 20 MPH?

 

[DrStupid]

Me too, as I have bought two of the damn things!

That's terrible luck.

My first Giant went at least 4000 miles before I sold it, with 100% of its original motor drive system. My second one has about 1500 miles so far.

I bought spare bearings from bearing-man, and a spare motor from Giant... so I never have to use them

 

[Bearing Man]

That would be nice...
I do get your point about bearing size and visually would agree with you. But my personal (And professional) experience tells me the bearings are proving to be problematic on these pro motor bikes when used off road.

Example:
I am on my 2nd bike.

First Bike (MY19 Trance E+3Pro) had a motor in the first at 817 miles. I later rejected the entire bike for wiring dramas at 1200miles.

The 2nd bike (MY20 Trance E+2Pro collect Feb20) has just had its 3rd motor due to bearing failure at 2500 miles.
2 motors were swopped out in the 700 mile region but the second one lasted a lot longer, in my opinion, due to lockdown and me riding the thing on Blackpool prom daily just to get out of the house.

The 1st in July 20 around 700 miles
The 2nd November 20 and that lasted about 1100 miles (Lockdown)
The 3rd was in May 21 at around 700 miles.

She is on 2880 miles today in December 21.
I seem to pretty religiously get to massive bearing play at around 7-800 miles (4-5months riding).


Edit:
I can note one thing though.
This last motor is MUCH quieter than any of my other 3 or my mates (Who have had 4 motors between them too. All Pros) and it seems to still have minimal play at 350miles and have stayed quiet. Maybe i finally got a good one?!

P.S:
I build race engines for a living so know better than to jetwash a bearing pack or electrical system.
This bike is wheels off hand washed whenever its washed at all. (rarely - i normally let the crap dry and just brush it down)

Hence my comment Stu "(well maybe not the Pro bearings)" Sadly, in my opinion, the Pro or PW-X motor was a real step backwards! Yamaha designed this motor to be the all new eMTB motor. They made it smaller and lighter for the off-road market, but did not add any water resistance and on top of that, fitted relatively tiny bearings in the thing! They do only last 5 minutes off road.
The motors range from horrendously noisy to totally silent! This is usually caused by poor fit on the gears. We sometimes swap gears around until we find two that mesh quietly. Sometimes we have found bad gear support bearings fitted from new too.

To those who don't know: If you ignore any bearing play, water will enter the motor and as the PCB is fitted at the bottom of the motor, not the top, the water soon destroys it! Game over!

 

[Bearing Man]

I recall you telling me this before when we were chatting about my Miss Friday as I call her.
Can the internal circuitry be swopped over to make it compatible witha Giant frame?

Example:
Take a proprietary Yamaha Motor from you brand new.
Install my GIANT circuit board and harness to it.

The motor will fit, as will the board in the motor. I would be 99% sure it would work, but must be honest, I have not tried this yet?