EP8-RS Derestricting Torque and Boost - eMax

[ep8-rs]

Ep8-rs adjust boost to 10 and torque up to 85nm for FREE via bluetooth.

EMTB Forums has helped me in my research of this , so here's a thank you post.

Android or iOS download : eMaxMobileApp at Home EN – eMax Tuning

Unpack and run app

Allow bluetooth access

Click : connect to bike
bike information
get bike information (wait for bottom load bar to finish)
continue

main
motor performance settings

at this screeen I manually entered 85 in the "max. torque range [Nm]" as this is the true maximum Nm torque for the EP8.

program parameters to bike

profile 1 settings

here I again adjusted the max. torque [Nm] to 85
I also increased assist level of Boost to 10.

program parameters to bike

at this point I clicked on profile 2 settings and customised it as to how I felt would fit my riding for the day depending on distance to cover , elevation changes , etc... freedom to choose!

back
special settings

again here I changed the speed adjustment [%] manually to -5.0 (*** CORRECTION +5.0 ***). This will make the bike believe it is going slower than it is , thus allowing a slightly higher top speed. disadvantage to this will be inaccurate speed if you have the shimano display.

program parameters to bike
main
disconnect bike.

follow the instructions and power down the bike and then back on. Go for a ride and see what you think. I could definately feel more help from the assist without any abnormal sounds , vibrations or oddities as I have read others sometimes having. That being said , don't expect a huge jump in power , it's only an extra 25Nm , but every little bit helps.

Now I'm in the US , so I won't be paying for the speed increase as I mainly wanted that extra torque for those steep climbs and overall more support and fun. I mean , that's why I got an ebike in the first place.

I also confirmed the Nm increase by opening the Shimano eTube app and checking the settings. Sure enough , it now shows 85Nm max and also showed the 10 on the boost assist level. So yah , it's legit.

I hope this helps fellow Orbea Rise owners as I searched all over and looked at many if not all of the available ways to derestrict my bike. This one is the one I found to do what it says quickly and for FREE! No , I don't work for eMax , I just want to share my findings and hopefully save others the search and money.

Ride on

 

[ep8-rs]

Hey guys , just giving an update I felt might help people that are curious about the same things as me. Like motor noises , battery draw after derestriction of torque , and changes in riding style afterword as well.

So I noticed that the motor had a little whine in ECO mode after my eMax changes. Not in BOOST like I expected. Now I am of the thought process that whining means vibration and off frequency so not good. Noting that only ECO mode is set at 250w , I figured I'd bump it to 350w and adjust custom set the Nm. Sure enough , whine is gone. My current settings are:
ECO = 35Nm 350W , TRAIL = 60Nm 350W , BOOST =85Nm 350W

Along with this , I also found my thinking has changed on how I use the 3 assist modes. Honestly , I was a set it and forget it kind of rider before, but with the derestricting and noted warnings from others on the forum about stressing the battery at 85Nm , I decided to experiment.

So now I use the ECO mode on downhill runs , TRAIL on flat and gentle rises , and finally BOOST on hill climbs. Of course , all along side of appropriate gears , which remind me to change the mode accordingly. Today I rode 15 miles of all 3 types of slopes and easily managed the 3 mode selections accordingly. I can enthusiastically report that not only did it work perfectly , but my battery drain was virtually identical to pre-derestriction. SWEET! And the bike never made a whining peep no matter the mode or incline , and the BOOST mode was awesome! To me my Rise always had the tire noise matching the motor so close I couldn't differentiate the two anyway , and it is right back there now with the new settings.

Hope this helps anyone out there debating or wondering about these things like I was. And if anyone has any advice or additional finds , please share as I would greatly appreciate it , just like I appreciated all the advice regarding this topic to get me to this point.


Ride on

 

[cookie70]

interesting findings. I've been told by my local shop and people at shimano that any bluetooth app that connects to the motor that is non shimano will trigger the "modified" flag on the motor if it is plugged into the shop hardware shimano app they will see it. Any thoughts on that?

 

[Astro66]

Bike computers like the Garmin, connect and read data from the motor over Bluetooth. There is no modified flag after connection.

My LBS that sold me my Shimano EP600 EMTB, actually lent me a cable to modify my motor with the EMax App, to allow me to install an electronic Di2 derailleur and shifter, as these are just parameters that can be modified.

If you don't modify the firmware, you should be fine modifying the parameters. You can always put the old parameters back. But if you do modify the firmware. Then this can be detected.

Normally the only way to put factory firmware back, is to wait for a new update from Shimano, and install that over your modified firmware, using the ETube Windows App and a USB cable. You can't roll back your firmware to a previous version, as far as I know.

All @ep8-rs has done is purely modified Orbea's tuning parameters. If you put them back to factory settings. It cannot be detected. Orbea marketing claim they install an Orbea Firmware in the EP8 RS. But that's a blatant lie. They only modify tuning parameters. Not the firmware.

So you can put standard EP8 tuning into an RS motor by using eMaxMobile.

 

[ep8-rs]

Exactly Astro66 , thank you for the reply. There is a one-click option in eMax that shows it will reset it to factory. I confess I have not tested it , but everything else in the app works as shown , so...

 

[Astro66]

As I do ride my EMTB on the road a bit. I have paid for the EMax license so I can set my bike to 30mph when I need to. But that does require a firmware modification, and is detectable by shimano.

But I plan to upgrade my EP600 motor to EP801 in the future. So if the motor fails. I'll just do the upgrade early.

With the EP8 motor, you'd need to upgrade the battery, and possibly the screen and switches, to do the EP801 upgrade. But the motor bolt holes are the same.

 

[ep8-rs]

This is the kind of information that I am here for. Sharing knowledge helps us all.

Thanks Astro66

 

[ep8-rs]

oops! looks like I made a small , but notable error in my original configuration post. It actually states in the eMax-possibilities pdf , that in the special settings the speed adjustment [%] manually should be to +5.0 . This will make the motor assistance remain full to peak speed , instead of gradually dropping off as it approaches. It also brings in wheel size reduction , but I cannot testify to this as my software is updated to the point it is no longer an option. C'mon Orbea , why did you disallow this simple little adjustment preventing people from going to accurate settings for mullet setups?
Anyway , if anyone out there is still following or interested I hope this helps.

Ride on

 

[Backflip]

oops! looks like I made a small , but notable error in my original configuration post. It actually states in the eMax-possibilities pdf , that in the special settings the speed adjustment [%] manually should be to +5.0 . This will make the motor assistance remain full to peak speed , instead of gradually dropping off as it approaches. It also brings in wheel size reduction , but I cannot testify to this as my software is updated to the point it is no longer an option. C'mon Orbea , why did you disallow this simple little adjustment preventing people from going to accurate settings for mullet setups?
Anyway , if anyone out there is still following or interested I hope this helps.

Ride on

Take care: The display speed adjustment value (in the range of +/- 5%) will not change the real max. motor support speed at all! This value will only adjust the speed on the Shimano bike display, noting less, nothing more.

Also when increasing max. torque (to e.g. the max. value on the standard DU-EP800 drive unit of 85Nm), then you also should increase max. peak power to e.g. the max. value on the standard DU-EP800 drive unit of 500W.
If you don´t do so, the still reduced value of the peak power most probably will prevent the drive unit from giving you the full potential of the newly programmed max. value of the torque.
This is because torque and power are physically directly related to each other by the cadence. See e.g. this link (use metric calculations):

So, in the upper picture you will find the "sweet spot" of cadence of your a DU-EP800 drive unit with the official nominal values of 85Nm and 500W which then is 56 rpm at the crank.
Below this 56rpm, you will hit the torque limit first, see e.g. next picture:

Above 56rpm, you will this the 500W limit first, see e.g. next picture:

So, depending on your cadence on the crank (pedals), either the max. peak power value or the max. torque value is limiting your drive unit.
So, you have to increase both values (torque and max. peak power) of your reduced RS drive unit to the nominal values of the (absolutely identical) DU-EP800 values (85Nm/500W) to get a real benefit.

And one last thing:
It seems like you are using a quite large font on your Android smartphone, so some values in the emax app are getting clipped or deranged.
If you go to Androids general settings and reduce the global font size a little bit, then the views should look much better in the app.

 

[ep8-rs]

Hey Backflip,
First , thank you for your input on this and all subjects you've commented on concerning the Orbea Rise.

Now , I have to say that after my own personal experience , and some very basic investigations into batteries , wattage and drain.. I have found IN MY CASE , as a 2022 Orbea Rise M10 Carbon rider , that my settings at 350w for all 3 support setting works best FOR ME in that :
1. I have no motor whine or unwanted noises.
2. I never get winded or tired IF I don't want to as the bike gives back what I put in at a very equal rate as I choose the appropriate support setting.
3. The battery drain IS more than the factory setting , BUT well within my range of my average rides with ample battery left if I decide to , or I am forced to go further than planned. Usually I end with about 60% remaining.
Now , also I have to add that I posted the +5 and -5 settings from EXPERIENCE , NOT from conjecture or only from what I have read. My experience has been very clear to me that my correction in that setting had a profound effect in that the motor provides assistance well beyond what I found a comfortable cadence. Now understand I am a 59 year old healthy male that ride for transportation and the joy of riding an e-bike. Others may want to really crank that cadence up and push the limits of their bodies. Personally , I have nothing to prove to myself or others in my riding or health , I just want to enjoy my rides. That being said , you may be correct in those really wanting to crank that cadence up , I'm not going to test it out only to experience unwanted pain. Anyone out there that's had a personal experience in really pushing the cadence up with these settings , please chime in and let us know.
Now as for the 500 wattage , again , I am obtaining all the motor support I NEED at my 350 settings , and from what I've read , bumping it up to 500 might help the short term boost , but would potentially hurt the long term in both shorter range in the immediate time , and degrade the battery life in the long term. At the risk of really overkilling this , here are my basic search findings:

Watts vs Battery Capacity​

When evaluating a battery’s performance, it’s essential to distinguish between two key concepts: watts pulled from the battery and actual battery wattage.

Watts Pulled from Battery:​

• Refers to the instantaneous power consumption of a device or load connected to the battery.
• Measured in watts (W), it represents the rate at which energy is being drawn from the battery.
• Can fluctuate depending on the device’s power requirements and usage patterns.
• Example: A smartphone might draw 5W when idle and 15W when charging its screen.

Actual Battery Wattage:​

• Represents the total energy capacity of the battery, measured in watt-hours (Wh).
• Calculated by multiplying the battery’s voltage (V) and capacity (Ah): Wh = V x Ah.
• Example: A 12V, 7Ah battery has an actual wattage capacity of 84Wh (12V x 7Ah).

Key differences:

• Watts pulled from battery is a dynamic measurement, while actual battery wattage is a static characteristic.
• Watts pulled from battery reflects the current power demand, whereas actual battery wattage represents the total energy storage capacity.

To illustrate the distinction, consider a 12V, 7Ah battery powering a device that draws 7A (84W) for an hour. The battery’s actual wattage capacity (84Wh) would not change, but the watts pulled from the battery (84W) would decrease as the device’s power requirements decrease over time.
In summary, watts pulled from battery and actual battery wattage are two separate metrics that provide valuable insights into a battery’s performance. Understanding these differences is crucial for accurately assessing a battery’s capabilities and optimizing its usage.

Based on the provided information, a 230Ah battery with a voltage of 12V (assuming a 12V system) has a total capacity of:

230Ah × 12V = 2760 Wh (watt-hours)

When a 500W load is applied, the battery’s capacity is depleted at a rate of:

2760 Wh ÷ 500W = 5.52 hours

This means the battery would last approximately 5 hours and 32 minutes before being fully discharged.

Important Notes​

• This calculation assumes a constant 500W load and does not account for any battery internal resistance, age, or condition.
• It’s recommended to avoid deep discharging (below 50% capacity) to prolong the battery’s lifespan.
• A more accurate calculation would require knowledge of the battery’s C-rating, which determines its ability to supply current. If available, this information would help refine the estimated run time.

Keep in mind that these calculations are based on the provided data and might not reflect real-world performance, which can be affected by various factors, including battery quality, temperature, and usage patterns.


Again , a sincere thank you for your input and information on this subject. Everyone's experiences and input on these subjects are both wanted and needed to keep us all wise to the long term ownership of these bikes.


Ride on

 

[Backflip]

Hey Backflip,
First , thank you for your input on this and all subjects you've commented on concerning the Orbea Rise.

Now , I have to say that after my own personal experience , and some very basic investigations into batteries , wattage and drain.. I have found IN MY CASE , as a 2022 Orbea Rise M10 Carbon rider , that my settings at 350w for all 3 support setting works best FOR ME in that :
1. I have no motor whine or unwanted noises.
2. I never get winded or tired IF I don't want to as the bike gives back what I put in at a very equal rate as I choose the appropriate support setting.
3. The battery drain IS more than the factory setting , BUT well within my range of my average rides with ample battery left if I decide to , or I am forced to go further than planned. Usually I end with about 60% remaining.
Now , also I have to add that I posted the +5 and -5 settings from EXPERIENCE , NOT from conjecture or only from what I have read. My experience has been very clear to me that my correction in that setting had a profound effect in that the motor provides assistance well beyond what I found a comfortable cadence. Now understand I am a 59 year old healthy male that ride for transportation and the joy of riding an e-bike. Others may want to really crank that cadence up and push the limits of their bodies. Personally , I have nothing to prove to myself or others in my riding or health , I just want to enjoy my rides. That being said , you may be correct in those really wanting to crank that cadence up , I'm not going to test it out only to experience unwanted pain. Anyone out there that's had a personal experience in really pushing the cadence up with these settings , please chime in and let us know.
Now as for the 500 wattage , again , I am obtaining all the motor support I NEED at my 350 settings , and from what I've read , bumping it up to 500 might help the short term boost , but would potentially hurt the long term in both shorter range in the immediate time , and degrade the battery life in the long term. At the risk of really overkilling this , here are my basic search findings:

Watts vs Battery Capacity​

When evaluating a battery’s performance, it’s essential to distinguish between two key concepts: watts pulled from the battery and actual battery wattage.

Watts Pulled from Battery:​

• Refers to the instantaneous power consumption of a device or load connected to the battery.
• Measured in watts (W), it represents the rate at which energy is being drawn from the battery.
• Can fluctuate depending on the device’s power requirements and usage patterns.
• Example: A smartphone might draw 5W when idle and 15W when charging its screen.

Actual Battery Wattage:​

• Represents the total energy capacity of the battery, measured in watt-hours (Wh).
• Calculated by multiplying the battery’s voltage (V) and capacity (Ah): Wh = V x Ah.
• Example: A 12V, 7Ah battery has an actual wattage capacity of 84Wh (12V x 7Ah).

Key differences:

• Watts pulled from battery is a dynamic measurement, while actual battery wattage is a static characteristic.
• Watts pulled from battery reflects the current power demand, whereas actual battery wattage represents the total energy storage capacity.

To illustrate the distinction, consider a 12V, 7Ah battery powering a device that draws 7A (84W) for an hour. The battery’s actual wattage capacity (84Wh) would not change, but the watts pulled from the battery (84W) would decrease as the device’s power requirements decrease over time.
In summary, watts pulled from battery and actual battery wattage are two separate metrics that provide valuable insights into a battery’s performance. Understanding these differences is crucial for accurately assessing a battery’s capabilities and optimizing its usage.

Based on the provided information, a 230Ah battery with a voltage of 12V (assuming a 12V system) has a total capacity of:

230Ah × 12V = 2760 Wh (watt-hours)

When a 500W load is applied, the battery’s capacity is depleted at a rate of:

2760 Wh ÷ 500W = 5.52 hours

This means the battery would last approximately 5 hours and 32 minutes before being fully discharged.

Important Notes​

• This calculation assumes a constant 500W load and does not account for any battery internal resistance, age, or condition.
• It’s recommended to avoid deep discharging (below 50% capacity) to prolong the battery’s lifespan.
• A more accurate calculation would require knowledge of the battery’s C-rating, which determines its ability to supply current. If available, this information would help refine the estimated run time.

Keep in mind that these calculations are based on the provided data and might not reflect real-world performance, which can be affected by various factors, including battery quality, temperature, and usage patterns.


Again , a sincere thank you for your input and information on this subject. Everyone's experiences and input on these subjects are both wanted and needed to keep us all wise to the long term ownership of these bikes.


Ride on

Thanks for the valuable information.
However, I think there are some misunderstandings.
All written information about "wattage and batteries" is absolutely correct, but is purely basic physics and in my eyes is not really relevant for the discussed topics (but maybe nice to have for some readers).

So, first of all:
The speed correction value of +/-5% has nothing to do with the cadence you are riding.
Again, the speed correction value only corrects the indication of the speed value on your Shimano bike display and it does not matter in which gear you are riding or which cadence you are using. Also this value does not change the max. motor support speed of the drive unit or your bike at all and also does not change the behaviour of the drive unit at the programmed max. speed limit.

Second:
If you increase your max. torque on your Orbea to 85Nm however, you are still limiting the max. peak power to 350W, then you will get the full 85Nm which your drive unit in this case is able to deliver only when your cadence is lower than 40rpm at the crank (which is quite low):

If you are riding with a cadence of more than 40rpm (which normally is quite often the case), then you always will hit the 350W limit first which then will prevent the drive unit to give you some more torque (because you already have hit one ot the 2 possible limits of the drive unit, in this case max. peak power of 350W)...

Sure, it also can make sense to get full torque only if you are going really slow with extreme low cadence (e.g. in a sophisticated trial or uphill), but normally such low cadence is not the case on a "normal cummute ride" where you easily use a cadence of 60rpm or more.

So, maybe it is a good idea to keep that simple physics in mind - for me these basics create a very strong confidence towards my bikes.

BTW: I am more than 60 years old, also still healthy and in fairly good shape and happy to be able to ride e-bike on a daily basis. Keep on ridin´

 

[Tony4wd]

Regarding the +5% speed adjustment, I've found that the EP8 speed does increase to approximately match the speed of our Bosch CX powered bike. I asked my wife to sit at 26km/h on a rail trail with the CX powered bike and the Rise was similar (riding beside her and watching both speedo's)
Previously I'd get left behind with the EP8 cutting out and the Rise speed reading would be ~24.5 km/h.

I've done a dozen rides on steep terrain with the Rise set to 500W and it's performing nicely so far.

 

[Backflip]

Regarding the +5% speed adjustment, I've found that the EP8 speed does increase to approximately match the speed of our Bosch CX powered bike. I asked my wife to sit at 26km/h on a rail trail with the CX powered bike and the Rise was similar (riding beside her and watching both speedo's)
Previously I'd get left behind with the EP8 cutting out and the Rise speed reading would be ~24.5 km/h.

I've done a dozen rides on steep terrain with the Rise set to 500W and it's performing nicely so far.

The display speed adjustment definitely will NOT increase real max. motor support speed at all!
It is absolutely correct that without any display speed adjustment the bike will cut out at an indicated speed of approx. 24km/h on the bike display.
If you will increase display speed adjustment to +5%, then the real cutout speed will be exactly the same (approx. 24km/h), but the indicated speed on the bike display then will be around 25km/h (24km/h + 5%).

This feature of the display speed adjustment was released from Shimano long time ago on May 22, 2019 in their Windows based E-Tube-Project version 3.4.3 and it is explicitly written in the version description: "Display seed adjustable function added for cycle computer: (Dirve unit is controlled by the actual speed)" (see down below) =>

https://bike.shimano.com/en-NA/products/apps/e-tube-project-professional.html:

So if your bike display now shows a cut out speed of 25km/h (and before 24km/h) it does not mean that the bike goes faster now! The bike has still the exact same cutout speed, but now shows a higher speed at the display, that is all. However, psychologically, the human brain then mostly thinks you are going faster because the display indicates a higher speed, but you are not... This is just an illusion.
So, there is no chance to speed up your bike with the display speed adjustment function!
If you would have the ability to change the real speed of the bike with this functionality, this function would have been called "speed adjustment function". However, this function is calles "display speed adjustment function" and the reason for this is that it only changes the indicated speed of the display to match e.g. with other bikes if your have a worn out tire with a lower wheel circumference...
Any increase of the real motor support speed in that range of +/-5% is legally not allowed in most countries.
So, if you really want to increase max. motor support speed of your bike you e.g. have to use EMAX - tuning software...

One more thing: In the past most Shimano STEPS based bikes seems to have cut out at around 24km/h, but they were not. They have cut out at exactly 25km/h (at least if the wheel circumference was programmed correctly), however they have reduced power output extremely at around 24km/h already to reduce the mechanical stress due to instant torque changes at exactly 25km/h. However, the drive unit still has supported up to 25km/h, but with reduced power.

Just with the latest motor firmware 4.3.0 of the new DU-EP801 and DU-EP600 Shimano has changed this soft behaviour and now (only with these new drive units) you can configure the cut out functionality by yourself with the new "assist cutoff function" in 3 steps from "soft" to "aggressive":

 

[Tony4wd]

Backflip, I used the eMaxmobile app referred to in the original post, not the Shimano E-Tube.

 

[Backflip]

Backflip, I used the eMaxmobile app referred to in the original post, not the Shimano E-Tube.

The functionality of "display speed adjustment" in eMaxMobileApp is absolutely identical to the same functionality in Shimano E-Tube-Project!
I am not writing this because it is a pure guess by myself - I am writing this because I have quite good connections to the guys from eMax since quite some time and so I know this for sure.
The guys from eMax are writing quite a lot in some German bike forums, however, they currently do not have enough time to actively do some more actively writng posts in this forum here or some other English spoken forums.
However, they at least read my posts all the times and they do correct me as soon as I will be wrong instantly.
So, whenever I have some time left I will try to help the guys from eMax to clarify situations in this forum related to eMax and help them as best as I can.
So, this "display speed adjustment" functionality was included (purely copied) also to the eMax-Tuning software to overcome the "soft cut off" (described in my previous post) in the earlier Shimano software and firmware versions and drive unit types via increasing "display speed adjustment" by +5% in combination with decreasing the programmed wheel circumference by -5% in the same app so that you then will have real 100% power up to REAL 25km/h (and have reduced power up to approx. 26,5km/h).
In activated US mode (which can be done with eMax and a bike related licence key) you then will have real 100% power up to REAL 32km/h (and have reduced power up to approx. 33,5km/h).
Normally the guys from eMax refuse to "purely copy" functionality which is already included in the E-Tube-Project software, but in this case it was a trade off to be able to process 2 tightly related functions in the same app.
As an end user (owner of the bike without high level privileges) you cannot change wheel circumference in the E-Tube-Project software from Shimano, however, with a bike related licence key in this way you can do both relating adjustments in the same software (eMaxMobileApp).
I hope this will clarify the situation and topic.

 

[mallo]

Take care: The display speed adjustment value (in the range of +/- 5%) will not change the real max. motor support speed at all! This value will only adjust the speed on the Shimano bike display, noting less, nothing more.

Also when increasing max. torque (to e.g. the max. value on the standard DU-EP800 drive unit of 85Nm), then you also should increase max. peak power to e.g. the max. value on the standard DU-EP800 drive unit of 500W.
If you don´t do so, the still reduced value of the peak power most probably will prevent the drive unit from giving you the full potential of the newly programmed max. value of the torque.
This is because torque and power are physically directly related to each other by the cadence. See e.g. this link (use metric calculations):

View attachment 149238
So, in the upper picture you will find the "sweet spot" of cadence of your a DU-EP800 drive unit with the official nominal values of 85Nm and 500W which then is 56 rpm at the crank.
Below this 56rpm, you will hit the torque limit first, see e.g. next picture:
View attachment 149239

Above 56rpm, you will this the 500W limit first, see e.g. next picture:
View attachment 149240

So, depending on your cadence on the crank (pedals), either the max. peak power value or the max. torque value is limiting your drive unit.
So, you have to increase both values (torque and max. peak power) of your reduced RS drive unit to the nominal values of the (absolutely identical) DU-EP800 values (85Nm/500W) to get a real benefit.

And one last thing:
It seems like you are using a quite large font on your Android smartphone, so some values in the emax app are getting clipped or deranged.
If you go to Androids general settings and reduce the global font size a little bit, then the views should look much better in the app.

Hello,

I am a new owner of Orbea Rise 2023, 520W, EP6 RS

Your post about the torque/watt/rpm relationship interests me a lot to best configure my assistance levels. I understand that the max torque can only be reached if the watts are sufficient, and that beyond a certain RPM, the motor will not give more energy according to the Torque/Watts setting ?

 

[Backflip]

Hello,

I am a new owner of Orbea Rise 2023, 520W, EP6 RS

Your post about the torque/watt/rpm relationship interests me a lot to best configure my assistance levels. I understand that the max torque can only be reached if the watts are sufficient, and that beyond a certain RPM, the motor will not give more energy according to the Torque/Watts setting ?

Yes, that´s mostly correct. See my previous posts in this thread with all the included information and links. Everything you need to know about this topic is already covered in there. Just take your time and digest. I cannot explain any better than I already did...
Also please try not to mix physical names with their units because this easily can lead to misunderstandings.
There is power which is measured in the phyiscal unit W (Watts).
There is energy which is measured in the phyiscal unit Wh (Watts * hours).
There is torque which is measured in the phyiscal unit Nm (Newton * meters).
There is cadence which is measured in the phyiscal unit rpm (rounds per minute).

 

[ep8-rs]

So...been a while since I've logged on to see what's happening to my posts. I feel I need to clarify a few things as there is a bit of a debate on the +5 setting bit.
First , I am NOT a super high cadence cranker.. I am a casual rider and in MY experience , the speed adjustment of +5.0 definitely has an effect as I run out of cadence spin before the motor cuts off in top gear at max speed with eMax. When I rode pre-eMax it definitely cut off , as well as with eMax and -5.0 setting.
Again , just MY experience and your mileage may and probably will vary. To me this is all kinda funny as eMax is FREE , yah , absolutely FREE , as well as the +5.0 setting , FREE!! So no need to just trust posts. Try it out and see. I did , and I am personally amazed that eMax is free and I thank the programmers every time I feel that extra help from my ep8-rs.


Ride on

 

[Backflip]

First , I am NOT a super high cadence cranker.. I am a casual rider and in MY experience , the speed adjustment of +5.0 definitely has an effect as I run out of cadence spin before the motor cuts off in top gear at max speed with eMax. When I rode pre-eMax it definitely cut off , as well as with eMax and -5.0 setting.

I am sorry, but I disagree.
Sure does the display speed adjustment of +5,0% will have an affect, but only on the value of the speed which is shown on the bike display, but nowhere else...
The display speed adjustment which is possible in the range of +/-5% will definitely NOT change the real max. motor support speed of a Shimano STePS based bike at all!

Again: This "Display speed" - parameter only changes the indication of the speed on your bike display, hence the name "Display Speed" (which is an official wording from Shimano, see down below).

So, maybe you psychologically think you are going faster as soon as the bike display shows 27km/h instead of 25km/h at the same real speed, but it is still the same speed (this is a quite natural human behaviour).
This also has nothing to do if you are a "high cadence cranker" or not, cadence is not relevant in this case.

So, to give you another kind of proof again:
The functionality of the display speed adjustment was integrated from Shimano already in 2019 to the motor firmware of all Shimano STePS drive units (see the first picture in this forum post) and down below again.
See ""Display speed adjustable function for cycle computer" and also see the note: "Drive unit is controlled by the actual speed"):

BTW.: "cycle computer" is the wording convention from Shimano for their displays, "drive unit" is their wording convention for the motor.

Also you can use the same functionality in the official E-Tube-Project-software from Shimano (Bluetooth based Cyclist app and Windows based Professional program), see e.g. here in the E-Tube-Project-Cyclist app:

The shown parameter "Display Speed" will exactly represent the value which you also can change in the EMAX software.

So do you really think Shimano will integrate a functionality that will allow you to speed up your bike by 5% which in most countries is not legal?
Definitely not...

The EMAX team has integrated (copied) this functionality only to their software because in combination with a slightly decrease of the wheel circumference (which only is possible in the EMAX software with a valid licence key) you then can in fact increase motor support speed a bit more (due to the decreased wheel circumference) and still get correct speed values (due to the increase display speed adjustment) on the bike display.
So, in this case you decrease wheel circumference by -5% and increase display speed adjustment by +5%.

Believe it or not - it´s fact and I definitely know this for sure.
As written before I know these guys from EMAX quite well and they agreed to my writing...
Anyhow, they appreciate very much that you like their software a lot, so best regards from them.
As soon as they have some more time left in the (far) future, they will try to join this forum too.

So, if you don´t believe in my words, just write an email to the guys from EMAX and see what they will write about this topic. I think these guys know the Shimano system quite well...

 

[ep8-rs]

I'm not here to argue , I am simply stating my experience. I am NOT only looking at the speed for my experiential reference. I am talking direct feedback on my legs effort . IT DOES MAKE A DIFFERENCE. Try it and see , plain and simple. Not sure why you are so invested in saying otherwise when it is free to try? I am neither gaining nor loosing anything in this. I am only here to share with those interested in maximizing the experience.

If you choose to reply , I would ask one question:
Which do you feel is correct - Authority or Authenticity?
...think about it


Ride on

 

[Backflip]

I'm not here to argue , I am simply stating my experience. I am NOT only looking at the speed for my experiential reference. I am talking direct feedback on my legs effort . IT DOES MAKE A DIFFERENCE. Try it and see , plain and simple. Not sure why you are so invested in saying otherwise when it is free to try? I am neither gaining nor loosing anything in this. I am only here to share with those interested in maximizing the experience.

If you choose to reply , I would ask one question:
Which do you feel is correct - Authority or Authenticity?
...think about it


Ride on

Why do you think that I never have tested this?
I have tried this functionality many times with different Shimano STePS based bikes (and I have access to many of them).
And the "display speed adjustment" works exactly like I have described in detail before.
And I did not only test this by my own "body sensing", I instead have used proper measurement gear like 2 sophisticated independant external speedometers (one GPS based and another one which is track based) for comparison.
However, it seems like you just don´t want to understand.
Otherwise you would have read my previous statements thoroughly and maybe would like to think and explain why you could change display speed adjustment also in the same way in the official E-Tube Shimano software (which definitely will not let you allow to go faster than allowed).
So if you change this display speed adjustment value in the emax software, the same value will also be changed in the Shimano software and vice versa.
So why don´t you just test and verify this also by yourself?
And so if this display speed adjustment value would increase real max. motor support speed of your bike (instead of "just" the indicated speed of the bike display) everybody who is riding a Shimano bike would just increase this value with the official Shimano E-Tube software to +5% so that the bike would go faster.
It is great that you share your experience here - this is what a forum is all about. However if it is not correct what you are posting, at least it should be allowed to give some hints for other ones not falling into a trap.
But ok, I am definitely not here to convince you.
There are other things to do which are more important.
So, maybe you should ask youself about your statement "Authority or Authenticity?"...

However, I am out in this topic. Have a good time and enjoy life.

 

[goldencore]

Yes, that´s mostly correct. See my previous posts in this thread with all the included information and links. Everything you need to know about this topic is already covered in there. Just take your time and digest. I cannot explain any better than I already did...
Also please try not to mix physical names with their units because this easily can lead to misunderstandings.
There is power which is measured in the phyiscal unit W (Watts).
There is energy which is measured in the phyiscal unit Wh (Watts * hours).
There is torque which is measured in the phyiscal unit Nm (Newton * meters).
There is cadence which is measured in the phyiscal unit rpm (rounds per minute).

As a physics teacher I am very grateful for this post

And arguing with personal feelings against physical/technical proof is, well...
I also think that "felt" increase in speed is a psycological phenomenon.

 

[ep8-rs]

Okay...so , Id ask those that are actually still reading this thread and have not become annoyed at the pointless debate. Have you personally tried this? eMax , increase your Orbea Rise to 85nm , change speed to +5 and or -5 for comparison?

If you personally have , I ask that you reply with NO , it does not make any difference , or YES it does make a difference.

If no one else has had the personal result I have had , I will write it off as I must be experiencing "a psycological phenomenon" as per the authority.

If anyone else has had the personal result I have , well I guess I'll know my personal experience is authentic and those seeking this information will possibly try it for themselves , and people trusting those they place above themselves as the authority they must obey , well that's their choice... c'est la vie

At any rate , I simply wanted to show my appreciation for this forum which helped me try all this in the first place , and to share it with others that are seeking the same.

For the record , I place no one above nor below. Each is unique , not more , not less. Uniqueness is of the experiencer , to be judged not by any other.

 

[goldencore]

The laws of nature are not an "authority" that oppresses you!

You could for once respond to the arguments that the other user wrote in great detail than just say "But I feel it!".

 

[ep8-rs]

My reply asked for input from those with experiences , not from those that read something in a book or was TOLD what IS by someone else that was told what is , who , in turn was told , etc etc... I would hope your interest in physics would be open to theory as , as I hope you know , a very Very VERY small percent of the universe has been "explained" by the current physics by THEORIES.
So an attempt at belittling me by saying I felt it , okay , yep I felt it , I actually experienced it.
As I can sense I hit a nerve with an authorized authority of authorization, I can only give my experience and in MY Theoretical reality , which is only my own.... so I would ask you only to ponder:
Can anything actually be KNOWN in this reality , or only EXPERIENCED by the individual?
you need not reply , as your previous reply already has founded your system of BELIEF in the KNOWN , and anything else is a "a psycological phenomenon" if it does not COMPLY.
Physics is closer to a religion than you seem to acknowledge. Of course , only my OPINION
Who would have imagined a simple e-Bike modification thread would turn into a completely unanswerable debate on hard grit vs feeling of experience? Kind of entertaining me at this point actually.

Nature is not governed by laws , it is not governed at all. Nature may follow the current frequency of input and output , but as frequency of the reality it experiences itself within varies , it will most likely move in what experientially feels best. But nature all too often will push the seeming boundaries of the reality and , huh what do you know ... Authoritarian much?

So yep , I DO NOT COMPLY.
If you are actually still reading this , 1st , I am amazed as it is all just my opinion , nothing more nothing less. In your world , your reality dictates you are right via YOUR EXPERIENCES of what you accept as true for you and what is not. To project your experiential beliefs upon others as factual for them IS AUTHORITARIAN.
Todays "expert" is tomorrows fool.

 

[ep8-rs]

Why do you think that I never have tested this?
I have tried this functionality many times with different Shimano STePS based bikes (and I have access to many of them).
And the "display speed adjustment" works exactly like I have described in detail before.
And I did not only test this by my own "body sensing", I instead have used proper measurement gear like 2 sophisticated independant external speedometers (one GPS based and another one which is track based) for comparison.
However, it seems like you just don´t want to understand.
Otherwise you would have read my previous statements thoroughly and maybe would like to think and explain why you could change display speed adjustment also in the same way in the official E-Tube Shimano software (which definitely will not let you allow to go faster than allowed).
So if you change this display speed adjustment value in the emax software, the same value will also be changed in the Shimano software and vice versa.
So why don´t you just test and verify this also by yourself?
And so if this display speed adjustment value would increase real max. motor support speed of your bike (instead of "just" the indicated speed of the bike display) everybody who is riding a Shimano bike would just increase this value with the official Shimano E-Tube software to +5% so that the bike would go faster.
It is great that you share your experience here - this is what a forum is all about. However if it is not correct what you are posting, at least it should be allowed to give some hints for other ones not falling into a trap.
But ok, I am definitely not here to convince you.
There are other things to do which are more important.
So, maybe you should ask youself about your statement "Authority or Authenticity?"...

However, I am out in this topic. Have a good time and enjoy life.

I do enjoy life as much as possible. Especially since I can say the +5 has actually improved my experience. View attachment 151908
Since goldencore brought physics into the convo , maybe I'm the observer in the double slit experiment and you're the scientist doing the experiment without the observer...or maybe visa versa , does it really matter?

 

[ep8-rs]

Sorry for that rant , so called elitist authority is messing up this world so , yah , sorry for that goldencore , more directed at them and not you. I am actually the one that had a nerve hit when maybe you never intended it that way.

On that note , I did take your advice and go back and read previous posts , annnndddd... well look at that , Tony4wd has actually already confirmed what I asked for , an actual other experience.
Now the funny thing is I was actually going to post that I never said it increased my speed , but that I no longer had the cutoff I experienced at 0 and -5. I was going to say that I believe it was simple miscommunication that was the cause of the disagreement , but now I wonder?... I mean , yah , maybe it goes faster , but I don't rely on the speedo since I did that +5 adjustment anyway. I just know I run out of constant cadence spin before the ep8rs does at top speed on a flat road now.
Again , I only ever posted this information I found in this forum as a consolidation of the info I found here and elsewhere as a thankyou and to maybe shorten the search for others seeking that info.

Ride on

 

[Moderator]

have not become annoyed at the pointless debate

Please remember that the forum is normally used for discussion.

To declare everyone else's comments as "pointless debate" merely because they don't conform to your own views does not mean that they're not relevant.

well look at that , Tony4wd has actually already confirmed what I asked for , an actual other experience.

Yes, someone else has also found a similar result to yourself, though one result doesn't confirm things, it could be subjective, different weather, different tyres the other bike riding slower for similar reasons.

Rather than playing some table tennis discussion based on "feeling" why not actually test the bike on the flat, with no wind, on the same day, where there are no trees or obstructions, in the same direction with a GPS device running to give actual speed. Make repeated runs to get averages using the different settings.

 

[SuperFastBiker2019]

For sure there is a difference if you will change the display speed adjustment value!
However, the only difference is the speed which is shown on the display, but as @Backflip already wrote, the real max. motor support speed of the bike does not change at all.
You even can change this display speed solely with your bike display – you don´t even need any smartphone or app!
Just enter the display menu and change the value and you will see that the motor support speed will not change at all:

 

[ep8-rs]

Okay , I'll stop volleying.
I only defended my experience as I took it as accusation of being intentionally misleading , which I was not and am not being.
The specific setup I performed on my own 2022 Orbea Rise M10 works as I described above for me as stated and defended.
Foolish me forgetting this is a forum where I can get sucked into a back and forth I never wanted or intended.
I have simply stated my case and others have stated theirs. In the end , my goal was to share my findings and I have done that.
For any seeking what I was when I wondered what was possible , they will do with what is in this post what they will.
Freedom of choice for those fortunate enough to have it.
No point in my saying any more than that really.

Thank you for those that created a means to find and share information here.