Emax iOS app available

[hokkane4]

and we actually did an experiment with a bike stand, digital bike scale, and a couple of cords to visually see (in actual numbers) the way torque is applied by the Shimano drive unit. It wasn't an ass-dyno assumption or a wild guess.
It's simple - with the current firmware, ECO and BOOST do not "self-adjust" like TRAIL does.

Great job! Could you share these actual numbers how the Trail mode differs from other modes (when set to same assist and torq. levels)? And what do you mean by Trail mode "self-adjustment"?

I have been playing with the assist level settings and I would be happy to learn something new. Currently Eco and Trail have been set for long rides to save battery and Boost is like default Trail. But based on your analysis, probably Trail would be most suitable to be set as highest assist level (Eco and Boost to 2 lowest assist levels), in case it does some magical "self-adjustment".

 

[raine]

Great job! Could you share these actual numbers how the Trail mode differs from other modes (when set to same assist and torq. levels)? And what do you mean by Trail mode "self-adjustment"?

I have been playing with the assist level settings and I would be happy to learn something new. Currently Eco and Trail have been set for long rides to save battery and Boost is like default Trail. But based on your analysis, probably Trail would be most suitable to be set as highest assist level (Eco and Boost to 2 lowest assist levels), in case it does some magical "self-adjustment".

Let's try this again, I'll try to explain it a different way. I''m going to change some words to hopefully make it easier to understand:

Starting with firmware 4.6.1, in the E-Tube software the default PROFILE is "Dynamic". In the Dynamic Profile, the assist settings are:

ECO MODE = 60% assist, maximum 30Nm torque
TRAIL MODE = 70% assist, maximum 70Nm torque
BOOST MODE = 300% assist, maximum 70Nm torque

Basically this means:
In ECO MODE (60%/30Nm), when you spin the crank, the STEPS motor will match your power output + add 60% assist. No matter how slow or fast you pedal, ECO MODE will ALWAYS give you 60% assist (no more, no less), but it will NOT produce any more than 30Nm of motor torque.

In BOOST MODE (300%/70Nm), when you spin the crank, the STEPS motor will match your power output + add 300% assist. No matter how slow or fast you pedal, BOOST MODE will ALWAYS give you 300% assist, and it will ALWAYS produce 70Nm of motor torque.

Now we move to TRAIL MODE (70%/70Nm). The simple explanation is: in TRAIL MODE (pre-4.6.1) when you spin the crank, the STEPS motor will match your power output + add 70% assist, up to 70Nm of motor torque.

However, with the 4.6.1 firmware update, there's more to TRAIL MODE as opposed to ECO and BOOST. Shimano refers to TRAIL MODE as an "intuitive pedal assist"; so although TRAIL MODE starts at 70%/70Nm, the actual pedal assist output is variable depending on the actual force you put into the pedals. So in their own words, "Pedal harder in Trail mode and your get stronger motor assist. So when you are really torquing it on something short & steep, the E8000 will match your efforts up to its max 70Nm output."

In other words, in TRAIL MODE the software is using the input torque (how hard you push on the pedal) to constantly adjust ("self-adjustment") how much motor assist - whereas in ECO and BOOST MODE are basically just preset values that always stay where they are set at.

So when used as intended, you can call ECO MODE "limited mode" in that it will limit motor assist to limit battery drain; you can call BOOST MODE "maximum mode" in that it will give you the maximum assist and torque at all times; finally, as suggested by Shimano - TRAIL MODE is the "all-around mode" in that you should be in TRAIL MODE the majority of the time you are riding your e-bike.

This is how the Shimano rep explained it to me, hopefully that is easier to understand with regards to how the STEPS system works, especially with 4.6.1.

 

[raine]

For those who prefer a visual chart, below is what I explained in the first post - everything in RED is my added notes on what the factory default values are:

 

[valium64]

In true Trail mode work on that mode since long time, for sure since August 2018 because I get my Sam2 on beginning of September and was already like that.
Maybe on 4.6.1 they improve the algorithm, but I can tell that the 4.3.2 I'm running actually the Trail mode already work with a self tuning.

 

[Eckythump]

Like @valium64 just said, trail mode has always had this behaviour, Shimano refine it as time goes on.
@raine is spot on about how it varies assist dependent on pedal pressure/rider input and it being the de facto mode to be using for general riding unless range is your thing or you are struggling up a hill.

On introduction trail mode was the stand out feature of E8000. A while after Bosch copied it calling it emtb mode. The only way you can get anything similar on the Levo/Brose is to use Blevo.

 

[hokkane4]

@raine Don't forgot to share your measurement numbers you mentioned on post #30

As an experiment I set ECO, TRAIL, and BOOST all to 300% assist / 70Nm torque. ECO and BOOST would give me the full 300% as soon as I starting turning the crank. But in TRAIL the amount of assist was relative to how hard I was pushing on the cranks.

Also after all you long explanation (for points that have been clear since beginning) , this above is still unclear. Probably every one wants to know how you get different power output from your motor when the assist settings for torque and support level are the same?

 

[Eckythump]

In eco and boost you get what you have set the figure to.
In trail you have variable assistance up to the maximums you have set.

So in your example of 300%/70nm in eco & boost you put 1nm of force on the pedals the motor provides an additional 3nm of assist, it gives three times your input until the maximum of 70nm, nothing more, nothing less.

In trail, an algorithm looks at the load on the pedals and the motor and adjusts the % assist level based on what it thinks you really need. The % assist level you set is the maximum % it will assist however it is variable below that dependent on load applied to the pedals and the load felt by the motor at the chainring.
It gives a natural assist and is the killer feature of the STEPS system. (Now copied by Bosch)

 

[hokkane4]

In trail you have variable assistance up to the maximums you have set.

Even when assist levels in ECO, TRAIL, and BOOST modes have been set to _same_ values ( 300%/70nm)? Did you get the point? Did you try it? I did, but could not feel any difference with my "ass dyno". @raine, however said that there is difference and he even measured it (waiting for those numbers).

 

[Eckythump]

Up to this point, no I hadn’t tried it.
Being interested in the results I have just been out and done some in the saddle testing.
With the assist & torque levels set to max (300%/70nm) I agree it is difficult to feel the difference as you immediately get full assistance at the very lightest pedal pressures. It is almost impossible to apply even pressure around the full pedal stroke so the assist level doesn’t shoot up at some point but if you are really careful you can feel the difference.
The effect is far more noticeable if you set the assistance level to 150% across the three modes.
Try pedalling with the power bar sitting at the bottom right corner of the display before it starts rising up the right hand side. Keeping you cadence and effort at the same level (can swap the display to cadence to assist) try cycling through the modes. You will feel a distinct drop in assistance when you go from eco or boost into trail. I particularly noticed it going from eco to trail as you are naturally expecting an increase and it does the reverse.

 

[S D]

Up to this point, no I hadn’t tried it.
Being interested in the results I have just been out and done some in the saddle testing.
With the assist & torque levels set to max (300%/70nm) I agree it is difficult to feel the difference as you immediately get full assistance at the very lightest pedal pressures. It is almost impossible to apply even pressure around the full pedal stroke so the assist level doesn’t shoot up at some point but if you are really careful you can feel the difference.
The effect is far more noticeable if you set the assistance level to 150% across the three modes.
Try pedalling with the power bar sitting at the bottom right corner of the display before it starts rising up the right hand side. Keeping you cadence and effort at the same level (can swap the display to cadence to assist) try cycling through the modes. You will feel a distinct drop in assistance when you go from eco or boost into trail. I particularly noticed it going from eco to trail as you are naturally expecting an increase and it does the reverse.

This is definitely my experience, I first thought the bike was faulty,
Thanks for the explanation

 

[raine]

@raine, however said that there is difference and he even measured it (waiting for those numbers).

@raine Don't forgot to share your measurement numbers you mentioned on post #30

First of all - Where did I say I recorded measurement numbers? I said:

...we actually did an experiment with a bike stand, digital bike scale, and a couple of cords to visually see (in actual numbers) the way torque is applied by the Shimano drive unit. It wasn't an ass-dyno assumption or a wild guess.

So I'm sorry if you were waiting for measurement numbers to somehow contradict your "ass-dyno" feeling... but there isn't any. The experiment was to see movement - not record values. Imagine if I used an analog gauge instead - the point of the experiment was to see the needle move, and if it moved differently - regardless of what number the needle was pointing at.

 

[raine]

The effect is far more noticeable if you set the assistance level to 150% across the three modes. Try pedalling with the power bar sitting at the bottom right corner of the display before it starts rising up the right hand side. Keeping you cadence and effort at the same level (can swap the display to cadence to assist) try cycling through the modes. You will feel a distinct drop in assistance when you go from eco or boost into trail. I particularly noticed it going from eco to trail as you are naturally expecting an increase and it does the reverse.

Thanks @Eckythump - I agree, this is absolutely true, and an easy experiment that anyone can do in real-world (at standard E-TUBE values). It caught me off-guard at first because I was expecting a linear boost in assistance level when keeping my normal cadence and pushing the button to switch from ECO to TRAIL. Then I noticed that TRAIL MODE got easier the more I raised my effort at the pedals.

@hokkane4 try this experiment above, but set all three modes to 100%/70Nm first. Your "ass-dyno" won't feel any difference, but your legs will

 

[raine]

There was a huge Firmware update overnight:
ファームウェア更新情報一覧（日付順/モデルタイプ別）｜E-TUBE PROJECT｜シマノ

New firmware is 4.7.0.
Of course anyone using the eMax app should NOT update yet.

EDIT: Found this from eMax, translated from a German forum:

ATTENTION: None of our programs eMax , miniMax , freeMax , eMaxMobileApp can currently carry out a modification on a bike equipped with motor firmware 4.7.0! We're working on it, but this could be a hell of a nutshell, as apparently a completely new authentication method was introduced by Shimano. As soon as there is news we will contact you again.

So if you like having the ability to make adjustments with the eMax App, again DO NOT UPDATE TO FIRMWARE 4.7.0 until eMax (hopefully) can sort it out.

 

[hokkane4]

So I'm sorry if you were waiting for measurement numbers to somehow contradict your "ass-dyno" feeling... but there isn't any.

It was rhetoric question, I did not expect that you could have measured it

Anyway, I did another test ride yesterday with lower assist level settings (50%/50Nm, 150%/70Nm set to all modes) and I can not feel nor see in the power meter any difference while toggling between the modes and going uphill.

 

[Eckythump]

Oh well.....

 

[StuE]

There was a huge Firmware update overnight:
ファームウェア更新情報一覧（日付順/モデルタイプ別）｜E-TUBE PROJECT｜シマノ

New firmware is 4.7.0.
Of course anyone using the eMax app should NOT update yet.

EDIT: Found this from eMax, translated from a German forum:


So if you like having the ability to make adjustments with the eMax App, again DO NOT UPDATE TO FIRMWARE 4.7.0 until eMax (hopefully) can sort it out.

Notes from Shimano site
Note
May 22, 2019 4.7.0 -Added interchangeability between SHIMANO STEPS with Road components.
Can't see any need to update if this is all it does

 

[raine]

Notes from Shimano site
Note
May 22, 2019 4.7.0 -Added interchangeability between SHIMANO STEPS with Road components.
Can't see any need to update if this is all it does

Edit: removed comment

 

[valium64]

Notes from Shimano site
Note
May 22, 2019 4.7.0 -Added interchangeability between SHIMANO STEPS with Road components.
Can't see any need to update if this is all it does

The biggest addition with this newest 4.7.0 firmware update is that you now have low/med/high options for ECO in the E-Tube app... which we already have with the eMax app and 4.6.1, so yeah...

One more time... the Eco setting are connected to E-Tube and not to the firmware.
It you update E-Tube even connecting a Motor with firmware from 4.3.2 to 4.6.1 you will be able to set Eco in one of the 3 level.
Tested personally on my E-8000 motors yesterday with both the firmware mentioned.
...
So, please stop to say that the 3 level of eco come with E-Tube only installing firmware 4.7.0 on the motors because people maybe upgrade to that version just to get this option and lose other adjustmen that can be done on previous firmware for nothing.

 

[raine]

One more time... the Eco setting are connected to E-Tube and not to the firmware.
It you update E-Tube even connecting a Motor with firmware from 4.3.2 to 4.6.1 you will be able to set Eco in one of the 3 level.
Tested personally on my E-8000 motors yesterday with both the firmware mentioned.
...
So, please stop to say that the 3 level of eco come with E-Tube only installing firmware 4.7.0 on the motors because people maybe upgrade to that version just to get this option and lose other adjustmen that can be done on previous firmware for nothing.

Your English comes off a bit as weird - but I get what you're trying to say.

And you're right - after reading the update notes on Shimano website, 4.7.0 drive unit firmware doesn't have anything to do with the new 3-level ECO adjustments in E-Tube.

However 4.7.0 is still NOT compatible with the eMax app (which this is the subject of this thread) so still relevant NOT to update to 4.7.0 yet.

 

[R120]

I am getting confused by this thread - are there now 3 power level options within ECO via the official Shimano app, or via the EMAX software?

 

[Eckythump]

EMax has totally variable settings for eco.
Shimano has just released an update for the PC software so you can vary the eco settings, I believe three levels.
There is a new firmware which accompanied the Shimano PC update which will disable the EMax app. That new firmware does not appear in the E-TUBE iPhone app as yet.

 

[valium64]

I confirm, E-Tube for PC now allows you to set 3 ECO levels which are the same as the values below:

ECO:
- Low 20% 30Nm 500W
- Medium 40% 30Nm 500W
- High 60% 30Nm 500W

TRAIL:
- Low 70% 70Nm 500W
- Medium 90% 70Nm 500W
- High 110% 70Nm 500W

BOOST:
- Low 150% 70Nm 500W
- Medium 200% 70Nm 500W
- High 300% 70Nm 500W

It is however possible to update E-Tube to the 3.4.3 version which is the last with ECO settable and use it in all its functions without having to update the firmware version of the motor to 4.7.0.
Personally verified using the latest version of E-Tube with motor firmware 4.3.2 and 4.6.1

 

[R120]

Thanks - are there now 3 eco settings on the IOS App too?

 

[Eckythump]

No, not at this time.

 

[raine]

So just curious what's the default ECO settings in "Dynamic" and "Explorer" mode?

 

[raine]

I confirm, E-Tube for PC now allows you to set 3 ECO levels which are the same as the values below:

ECO:
- Low 20% 30Nm 500W
- Medium 40% 30Nm 500W
- High 60% 30Nm 500W

TRAIL:
- Low 70% 70Nm 500W
- Medium 90% 70Nm 500W
- High 110% 70Nm 500W

BOOST:
- Low 150% 70Nm 500W
- Medium 200% 70Nm 500W
- High 300% 70Nm 500W

It is however possible to update E-Tube to the 3.4.3 version which is the last with ECO settable and use it in all its functions without having to update the firmware version of the motor to 4.7.0.
Personally verified using the latest version of E-Tube with motor firmware 4.3.2 and 4.6.1

So what's the default ECO settings in "Dynamic" and "Explorer" mode?

 

[valium64]

I don't know, I tried only to see the various levels but not to set the presets. However I think it is enough to select and use them then return to manual mode and see on which level Eco is set.

 

[S D]

Out of curiosity, does the emax iOS app allow the USA location settings to enable a slightly higher max speed and retain correct speedo info.
Another 2-3 mph would be right in the spot for cruising with non ebike wives etc ?

 

[raine]

Out of curiosity, does the emax iOS app allow the USA location settings to enable a slightly higher max speed and retain correct speedo info.
Another 2-3 mph would be right in the spot for cruising with non ebike wives etc ?

http://www.emax-tuning.com/brief_intro_to_eMaxMobileApp.pdf

There's some settings with "Maximum Support Speed" and "Wheel Size" and "Destination Limit" - but you have to be on specific motor firmware + you need the paid version to access these extra settings

 

[Shog46]

Any news on when a update for EMaxMobileApp to work with the e7000 display?