EEb Technology, or lack of it

[Sidepod]

So digging around on various bike websites yesterday got me thinking. The state of current Eeb Technology, or lack of it is starting to annoy me.



Yes it’s a growing industry and it’s made steps, or one step. Everyone is praising the industry for moving on from bolting a battery to an existing MTB frame but really? Is that it? Batteries in down tubes, largely a styling exercise, does nothing for the dynamics of the bike. I’d say we’re out of the swamp, not quite walking upright just yet.



What really sticks in my throat is the derailleur. I know all the arguments about pro’s/cons but things have moved on since it’s inception. Materials, manufacturing methods, CAD design, 3D printing etc. Chuck it in the bin and start again. There is no way on earth it can be considered fit for purpose on a mountain bike. Take the bike out of the van in winter and the jockey wheels are jammed full of mud, twigs, grass, small animals before you’ve even set off. The current drive trains fitted to eebs are enormous. I hate them. Let’s see more electronic gearbox systems with belt drives.



Electronics. Let’s see integrated lighting on all bikes. Brake lights even? Why not. Could we have an electric horn please? I have a silly little dingy bell on my bars. Better displays. I know Rob rails on about them but why? Would you drive a car without a dashboard? Built in SATNAVS, electronic gear selection, gear position indication.



I love the Rohloff e-tranny. Integrated into the motor control to cut torque momentarily on shifting. 180m/s gear shift. Electronic shifting. Maintenance free. Automatic low gear selection on stopping ready for restart. Belt drive. My next bike will have this. FACT.



I’d like to see more choice. Make the frames/chassis more customisable. You choose the drive system, Bosch/Yam etc and it’s fitted to the bike on order. More geometry choice on the same bike. Agree on a common size shape of battery so we can all use the same ones.



Discuss.

 

[Mteam]

Electronics. Let’s see integrated lighting on all bikes. Brake lights even? Why not. Could we have an electric horn please? I have a silly little dingy bell on my bars. Better displays. I know Rob rails on about them but why? Would you drive a car without a dashboard? Built in SATNAVS, electronic gear selection, gear position indication.


Discuss.

The above is fine for a commuter bike - but I absolutely dont want this crap on my mountain bike. I want the opposite - I want a tiny unobtrusive display that tells me how much battery I have left accurately, and that tells me what mode the motor is in and thats it, better still if I could have no display and just have that data transmitted to my watch over bluetooth or ant. I dont want satnav, I dont want to know miles, speed, etc etc. - I dont want all the other shite you mention.

I think the fact that bikes are used in so many different ways means that no one solution is right for everyone, so we want choice.

 

[Zimmerframe]

It all sounds great ... but ... there's always but's

Things are still pretty new and they're still learning/developing - arguably - always will be

One side wants more "features" one side wants more simplicity/reliability. The more "features" you add, the heavier the bike, the more to go wrong.

There are moves from some to add some of the features you like. Rimac's Grape bike has some, the new Forestal Siryon has some.

Derailleurs do at first seem like some crazy clockwork solution invented by a mad man, but they work, they're efficient. They can clog up with crap, but the chain still engages most of the time. Belt drives sound like the dream, but it doesn't take much mud or crap before they lose traction so just aren't suitable for most riders/riding conditions yet.

Gearboxes would be fantastic, but they need to be light, reliable and efficient. If combined within motors, they need to be servicable or repairable otherwise a fault in one or the other and the whole thing needs replacing.

 

[Sidepod]

The above is fine for a commuter bike - but I absolutely dont want this crap on my mountain bike. I want the opposite - I want a tiny unobtrusive display that tells me how much battery I have left accurately, and that tells me what mode the motor is in and thats it, better still if I could have no display and just have that data transmitted to my watch over bluetooth or ant. I dont want satnav, I dont want to know miles, speed, etc etc. - I dont want all the other shite you mention.

I think the fact that bikes are used in so many different ways means that no one solution is right for everyone, so we want choice.

Fine, when you configure your new bike, just un-tick those boxes. Simple.

 

[Zimmerframe]

Fine, when you configure your new bike, just un-tick those boxes. Simple.

But if you design a bike to be a 50kg road bling machine with all your features, when someone "unticks" all the superfluous crap - you won't be left with the most efficient or effective possibility of the design for what most people want.

Didn't you work in F1 ? You don't start with a Mercedes G-Wagon and just take bits off. You build it and all it's parts from the ground up to be as effective as possible for what you want it for.

 

[Sidepod]

Where does 50kg come from?

 

[Sidepod]

So far all I've added is a little extra for the hub gearbox. The rest is just plastics. You guys are always saying how weight doesn't matter, it's an ebike right?

 

[Mteam]

You guys are always saying how weight doesn't matter, it's an ebike right?

I'm not - weight matters greatly ,as does the placement/location of that weight - ebike or not, its all relative.

But it not all about weight its about a machine being designed to perform a specific job - in the case of any mountain bike I would buy, that specific job is blasting downhill off road, jumps, drops, technical riding, and getting back up hill again.

The problem is that the term mountain bike covers such a wide range of uses, that one mans mountain biking is commuting to work, anothers is cycling along the canal towpath, someone elses is hammering world cup DH race tracks, and someone elses is riding the redbull rampage course.

For me my mountain bike is more akin to my caterham 7, its doing one job only, I dont want my caterham to have ABS,powersteering, auto gearbox, sat nav, heater, electric seats. It would fundamentally change its ethos if my caterham had to be designed to cater for someone who wanted all that stuff as well as someone who only wanted to hammer it round the nurburgring at weekends.

 

[Sidepod]

I'm not - weight matters greatly ,as does the placement/location of that weight - ebike or not, its all relative.

But it not all about weight its about a machine being designed to perform a specific job - in the case of any mountain bike I would buy, that specific job is blasting downhill off road, jumps, drops, technical riding, and getting back up hill again.

The problem is that the term mountain bike covers such a wide range of uses, that one mans mountain biking is commuting to work, anothers is cycling along the canal towpath, someone elses is hammering world cup DH race tracks, and someone elses is riding the redbull rampage course.

For me my mountain bike is more akin to my caterham 7, its doing one job only, I dont want my caterham to have ABS,powersteering, auto gearbox, sat nav, heater, electric seats. It would fundamentally change its ethos if my caterham had to be designed to cater for someone who wanted all that stuff as well as someone who only wanted to hammer it round the nurburgring at weekends.

Ok but are you not talking about a nice nostalgic "back to basics" thrill there with the Cat which I get entirely. What I'm talking about is advancing technology not sticking with ancient tech.

 

[Mteam]

I'd be all over a gearbox on a bike to replace the derailluer, if it could be as follows:-

- Not much heavier than a derailuer,cassette etc all combined
- Not much more expensive than the derailleur
- As reliable as a derailleur
- As efficient as a derailleur

 

[Mteam]

Ok but are you not talking about a nice nostalgic "back to basics" thrill there with the Cat which I get entirely. What I'm talking about is advancing technology not sticking with ancient tech.

I dunno - there's not much modern technology in a caterham 7, ok a few bits of carbon fibre, and the engines are modern, but the chassis is still just a space frame, with an ancient rear suspension layout at the back.

 

[Zimmerframe]

OK, but where are you advancing technology ?

Chains/belts - they're not new. You're just suggesting bikes should have belts because they possible fit more with your type of riding - it's not a technological advancement ?

brake lights ? You can buy helmets and lights with these in. But why would you want these on a mountain bike ?

Would you drive a car without a dashboard ? again, this isn't advancing technology. Lots of people don't want or need a 12" display telling them where the nearest burger shop is. Uhmm .. now I'm hungry... You can mount a phone if you want to. Why double up with things ?

Agreed, we'd all love to see "advancements" - it's exciting ! .. but a the moment I think we're only getting steady evolution because the basic technology isn't there yet and real world efficiencies and reliabilities aren't there yet.

Self tuning suspension is floating about.

 

[Sidepod]

I just feel there is a huge opportunity here to do something really quite special and yet we're just polishing a turd.

 

[Rusty]

Nope, I don't want superflous crap on my bike. Love night riding, but a helmet light is the only way to go if you want to go fast. Bar lights are for backups or commuting. Don't want brake lights either. I have a light that attaches to my seat rails and if I am going on a night ride - I fit it, then remove afterwards. Until 1K Wh batteries come out that are 50% the weight of current units I don't want anything that adds weight or drains power.
I do however think a gearbox incorporated into the motor is a great idea. Rohloff hubs etc are nice - but expensive and really out weight where it is not ideal. Reducing unsprung weight does definitely help with handling and having any weight centralized also helps with handling and balance.
Belts? No thank you. I strip belts on my singlespeed so expect that with the extra torque of the motor I would strip them even easier. Oh, and stripping a Levo belt at 500 or so km had me ditching that PoS motor too.

 

[Mteam]

I just feel there is a huge opportunity here to do something really quite special and yet we're just polishing a turd.

I think bosch are trying to follow your philosophy , they have big displays, the option to drive front and rear lights from the bike battery, even ABS systems. I imagine they will go further and attempt to do the sort of things you are talking about. And the commuter/leisure market seems to love all that stuff, but just witness the noise from the more serious mountain bikers about how crap their ancilliaries are and how un suitable they are for more serious mountain bikers to see the wide gulf in what people want.

The bosch motor itself (talking specifically about the bosch gen4 cx) is probably the best ebike motor around at the moment, but all the other crap bolted to it (screens , controllers etc) , is probably the worst. My bike has the bosch system......the motor is great, but I wish they'd offer a more minimal display/controller option.

 

[Sidepod]

I think bosch are trying to follow your philosophy , they have big displays, even ABS systems. I imagine they will go further and attempt to do the sort of things you are talking about. And the commuter/leisure market seems to love all that stuff, but just witness the noise from the more serious mountain bikers about how crap their ancilliaries are and how un suitable they are for more serious mountain bikers to see the wide gulf in what people want.

The bosch motor itself (talking specifically about the bosch gen4 cx) is probably the best ebike motor around at the moment, but all the other crap bolted to it (screens , controllers etc) , is probably the worst. My bike has the bosch system......the motor is great, but I wish they'd offer a more minimal display/controller option.

Agree with all of that. Every bike could be offered with a "No frills" option for the purists, again it's down to ticking those boxes when yuo configure. Development needs to go forward to make the ancillaries bullet proof and fit for purpose.

 

[Zimmerframe]

I just feel there is a huge opportunity here to do something really quite special and yet we're just polishing a turd.

It's perspective ..

For some it's a life long mission to end up with that perfect Turd.

Others just want to admire a shiny Turd.

Some want a Turd which stands out and want everyone to see their Turd.

Lots of people want anti theft or tracking built into their Turds.

For many, they love their Turds and wouldn't want the Turd re-inventing.

 

[Sidepod]

 

[Deleted member 7464]

I'm happy if my bike works okay.it does everything I want it to and more,my reason for getting an ebike is to keep me riding the way I did 20 years ago....it certainly does that so no need for more.

 

[Zimmerframe]

View attachment 54854

Mclaren F1, Ferrari F40. Sometimes the best solutions are the simplest, rather than just using technology for technology's sake.

Think of the marketing side too ..

The new Specialized Behemoth. €20,000 with more flashing lights than a filipino jeep. Please de-select options 4-2743 if you want to use this bike as a mountain bike.

You don't search for a product you don't like and then de-select all the crap options off it. You buy a product which you do want. If you want something different, you buy that base product and bolt lots of crap onto it - which is exactly what you can do now.

 

[Sidepod]

Think you're missing the point. I'm out.

 

[Pigin]

I love tech, I love choice but mostly I hate the fact that we have not got out of the 19th century and still use a chain!

Right so I'm off to buy this weeks best lube for wet, for dry, for mixed and for everyday of the week.

 

[Zimmerframe]

Think you're missing the point. I'm out.

That's not much of a discussion if you're out because the Luddites don't see your point ?

You said you wanted to advance technology and discuss it. Sounds like a great call. But what you suggested wasn't advancing technology - or at least I, and maybe others, didn't interpret your suggestions that way.

 

[Sidepod]

My point was not necessarily adopting existing Rohloff tech but taking the opportunity to do something new and exciting read better. That aside, can we not at the very least have an eclectic horn!

 

[Mteam]

Think you're missing the point. I'm out.

Thats the difference in what people want right there - we're not missing the point, we (or certainly I) just dont want or need a lot of what you cited as improvements.

I think most mountain bikers would love anything that improves how fast they can go, how far they can go, the kind of terrain they can ride etc etc, So gearboxes - yep I'd be all over those if they're actually better than what we have now, same goes for most drivetrain 'improvements' if its a genuine improvement I'd be all over it.

Do not want or need integrated lights, brake lights, sat nav systems, large displays, integrated horns (FFS!) , gear position indicators etc etc.

 

[Sidepod]

Thats the difference in what people want right there - we're not missing the point, we (or certainly I) just dont want or need a lot of what you cited as improvements.

I think most mountain bikers would love anything that improves how fast they can go, how far they can go, the kind of terrain they can ride etc etc, So gearboxes - yep I'd be all over those if they're actually better than what we have now, same goes for most drivetrain 'improvements' if its a genuine improvement I'd be all over it.

Do not want or need integrated lights, brake lights, sat nav systems, large displays, integrated horns (FFS!) , gear position indicators etc etc.

These are just my thoughts/examples. What I'm trying to say is I don't feel the bike designers are trying very hard.

 

[Pigin]

These are just my thoughts/examples. What I'm trying to say is I don't feel the bike designers are trying very hard.

I think they do try very hard but the commercial influences are too great. PROFIT,PROFIT,PROFIT. How many belts versus chains do you think they would sell?

 

[Sidepod]

I got involved recently with some bike design for a high end brand. Basically we were told they've not yet found the ceiling for what people will spend on a bike.

 

[Pigin]

not yet found the ceiling for what people will spend on a bike.

Says it all. Manufacturing costs between a different models, forks for example, is insignificant compared to the mark up thats put on them. They try the market to see just what can be got away with. Us blokes just love bragging rights where as Ladies you are safe in the knowledge that your designer shoes and handbags are worth every penny. Please try and understand my attempt at humour/sarcasm.

 

[Paul Mac]

For me who generally rides his mountain bike all year round in the UK, my wish lost would be.
1. Yes the current transmission systems are a weak point on EMTBs and need a re think. I would love a gearbox system, but with current technology I can only see this being very draggy especially when over the speed limiter, but in my opinion this is the direction we should head in.
2. Lighter more efficient batteries, I know these are coming with the up take of electric vehicles, watch this space ?
3. Bearings that can last a whole winter, all the chassis bearing are just regular tat on £10000 ebikes.
As for a chain drive, I still think it's the best solution, it's light robust and reliable.
You only have to look at the pinnacle of 2 wheeled race machines I.e moto gp bikes and everyone is using a chain, and they have all the money in the world to throw at it.