Ebike racing - E-EWS is apparently its cool...

[notaninfluencer]

I am honestly a sceptic; I was thinking that ebike racing is more about motors and just another marketing method for bikes, but after chatting to Fontana, he might have changed my mind. Of course I have not tried racing on ebikes, Ive seen small skirmishes lets say, when its been added in as an extra category, those seemed to me to be more about making ebike people happy and getting a few extra subs. I wonder if it will really improve in the next years and everyone will be doing it?

 

[RickBullotta]

Honestly, I went from a big supporter of eMTB racing to more of a skeptic after doing a couple races and watching the evolution of the bikes. The reality is that there is simply too much variability in the technology (and the ability to tweak/manipulate the bikes) to enable "fair racing" at this stage. Yes, I know there is tech inspection and such, but easily gamed (I am 100% certain that a few of the racers in the podium in my races tweaked their Levos to maintain assistance past 20 MPH). For eMTB racing to be more interesting, I think it will require more homologation and standardization as in F1/Formula E or even "class racing" with identical bikes. The other approach is to make the course so technical that the impact of rider outweighs impact of bike. I'm not suggesting that teams/riders shouldn't seek advantage through better bike design and setup, but today it's just too widely distributed to make general eMTB racing a fair context. Enduro is certainly the best area to target initially (vs XC), and I like the way they made the uphill segment very technical.

 

[B1rdie]

I totally agree:

We need more climbing trails!

 

[Slowroller]

I totally agree:

We need more climbing trails!

Which would make it even more boring to watch and impossible to sell.

 

[Slowroller]

E-enduro or e-xc racing could succeed on a local level where people are mainly racing for the experience and results only matter in the pub afterward. At an elite level, who would you rather watch race XC or Enduro, the best riders in the world or racers a few tiers down on ebikes? Until the best of the best are paid to race on ebikes, the only way to create a marketable format for emtbs is to make it very unlike what already exists and make that format interesting to a casual viewer. If it doesn't get eyeballs, it doesn't much matter.

 

[RickBullotta]

E-enduro or e-xc racing could succeed on a local level where people are mainly racing for the experience and results only matter in the pub afterward. At an elite level, who would you rather watch race XC or Enduro, the best riders in the world or racers a few tiers down on ebikes? Until the best of the best are paid to race on ebikes, the only way to create a marketable format for emtbs is to make it very unlike what already exists and make that format interesting to a casual viewer. If it doesn't get eyeballs, it doesn't much matter.

Does XC get eyeballs? I find it to be the second most unwatchable form of bike racing.

 

[B1rdie]

Which would make it even more boring to watch and impossible to sell.

And who is talking about watching?

 

[Rob Rides EMTB]

I hope we don’t get to the point where it’s like horse racing jockeys. Anyone over 75kg is at a distinct disadvantage on the climbing stages due to power to weight.

 

[R120]

I think EMTB racing on a local grass roots level is a lot of fun, mainly because larking about on bike is always fun, but at a "serious" level its still fun enough to watch (EWS-E, not some of the other more laughable efforts) but to my mind is more pushed form a marketing of the bikes perspective than any sort of real racing.

 

[GrandPaBrogan]

I hope we don’t get to the point where it’s like horse racing jockeys. Anyone over 75kg is at a distinct disadvantage on the climbing stages due to power to weight.

I think racing will only improve the quality and efficiency of the current crop of eMTBs. If anything else, it should accelerate development. The race format, rules and restrictions are just things that need to be ironed-out over time.

Cheating? Well, wherever there's racing (of any sort)... there's always going to be cheating. Someone mentioned F1 motorsport... sheesh the level of surreptitious circumvention of the rules in that environment would make our eyes water. BUT that's the incubator for leading edge thinking and our modern passenger cars have gained so much as a result. Many people don't realise this, but in racing... innovating and cheating are often times the one and the same thing.

Glad you mentioned power to weight relationship... but there's one other factor that's part of that equation - and that's distance. It's the triumvirate balance of all three that should make a good race. Racing will force the manufacturers to reach the pinnacle of this balance a lot quicker. Rider skill and prowess will still outshine all three obviously. Apparently a 75kg rider is considered heavy in the last EWS-E championship where 65kg riders had a clear advantage on the climbs. But a 75kg rider still beat quite a few of the lighter riders because he was able to make it up on the downhill sections where his skill was supreme.

Race organisers should therefore carefully design and introduce certain race track features to level the playing field - BUT in such a way that manufacturers can still have a level of freedom to experiment with the triumvirate balance of power vs weight vs distance. But getting the appropriate racing distance - is key... because using more power too early (for an early gain in race position) also drains the battery quicker.

The most exciting FormulaE race I watched was when the top finishers were all running on empty battery on the last lap - some actually stopping short of the finish line. Why was it exciting? It's because the battery level, speed, and power draw being used by each car was being transmitted onto a public display monitor for ALL spectators to see - in real time. This may work to discourage cheating and also improve spectating at the same time in an eBike race. And I certainly hope some eMTB racing team can find a way to cheat - by figuring out a way to regenerate their battery from braking a freewheeling drive system (different from cars). Slap their hands when caught in the here and how, but that's technological progress in my book.
.

 

[Gary]

I hope we don’t get to the point where it’s like horse racing jockeys. Anyone over 75kg is at a distinct disadvantage on the climbing stages due to power to weight.

Get to the point?
A heavier rider will always be at a disadvantage in a hill climb, motor or not. That's just basic physics.
adding hill climb time trial stages in emtb multistage gravity racing is just stupid. but even more so with the riders on different power/torque/eficiency motors. most powerful motor + light rider = massive advantage
It's not like any of the top contenders don't have the skill to get up the stages so it's simply a power to weight race.
makes (even more of) a gong show of the whole thing.

 

[Rosemount]

If that was the case most torque wins ?
Where were the 120 NM TQ motors and Haibike Flyons ?

Surely privateers would all ride Haibike to get the most powerful motors and leave the old world champ Factory riders in their dust ? lol .

 

[Gary]

no mate.
power to weight needs 2 variables. (well actually 3 when a motor is also involved)

Plus you still need a competitive well handling bike for the decent stages

 

[R120]

EMBN did some interviews at the EWS-E and most of the rider they interviewed said they would never be able to compete with the guy who won the uphill stage simply because he sighed about 20kg less than the rest of them

 

[R120]

One thing I do find interesting about the racing is looking at how the builds of their bikes, I would suggest its surprising how many of the riders dont go for the "burliest" components, which we the punter seem to be constantly told as essential.

 

[Rob Rides EMTB]

Maybe they should add in some hike an ebike stages, and an overhead press the ebike for as many reps as you can for the heavier more muscular riders to level it out a bit ?

 

[ggx]

"adding hill climb time trial stages in emtb multistage gravity racing is just stupid "
Don´t agree. Lot´s of fun doing up hill chalenging trails, e-mtb are.

 

[GrandPaBrogan]

EMBN did some interviews at the EWS-E and most of the rider they interviewed said they would never be able to compete with the guy who won the uphill stage simply because he sighed about 20kg less than the rest of them

There are ways to introduce parity when it comes to weight. In boxing for example, boxers are separated in their respective weight class. Or in motorsports, ballast weights can be added plus separation according to engine displacement.

Because of the significant added weight of the motor and battery, net weight may need to be addressed whereas in traditional cycling races it was never a factor that was questioned. It needs to be sorted for sure and will make things complex - but you’re right... it can’t carry on without introducing countermeasures.

 

[Gary]

in traditional cycling races it was never a factor that was questioned.

eh?
what are you talking about?
in traditional cycling the UCI impose minimum bike weight limits
and in hill climb events where there is no limit savy riders use bikes as light as sub 4kg

 

[GrandPaBrogan]

eh?
what are you talking about?
in traditional cycling the UCI impose minimum bike weight limits
and in hill climb events where there is no limit savy riders use bikes as light as sub 4kg

Sorry, I meant rider weight.

 

[Gary]

Haha... Of course rider weight wasn't questioned in professional cycling. Don't think anyone is expecting overweight kebab fans to be winning any uphill races. Do you?
Clydesdale and the older age categories just exist for otherwise no hopers to have a competition to enter. Hopefully none of the entrants are foolish enough to think they're genuinely competitive at a high level at the sport.
Much like the EWS/E-EWS punter categories really.

 

[GrandPaBrogan]

Haha... Of course rider weight wasn't questioned in professional cycling. Don't think anyone is expecting overweight kebab fans to be winning any uphill races. Do you?
Clydesdale and the older age categories just exist for otherwise no hopers to have a competition to enter. Hopefully none of the entrants are foolish enough to think they're genuinely competitive at a high level at the sport.
Much like the EWS/E-EWS punter categories really.

No I never did.

My train of thought when I wrote it (poorly) was - the advantage that lighter riders have in relation to what was always going to be heavier than normal weight of an eMTB due to the ‘significant added weight of motor and battery.’ There is a practical limit to how light an eMTB can still be beneficial as it will quickly reach a point where the motor and battery capacity becomes inadequate... provided the features and distance were properly considered in the track design.

So some possible ideas that may make things more fair are - either place riders in a weight category (which I don’t believe was ever needed to be addressed before) but leave the bikes alone, or add weights to further increase the net weight of an eMTB race bike if its rider‘s weight poses an unfair advantage, or change the track features so that rider weight advantage is negated.

But yep, poor previous wording on my part. I wasn’t thinking about the topics you raised as a result.

 

[Gary]

The performance differences betweeneach manufacturers motor currently means there is no fairness between competitors. Nevermind spitting into rider weight categories

As with ALL fitness sport. The athlete with the best physical size/strength/weight/efficiency who has trained hardest, cleverest and looked after their body best has the greatest physical advantage. after that it's all down to talent and luck on the day.
As for Ebike racing. Hardly anyone enters these things in the first place. with your idea of suggesting special categories to cater for less well suited riders (bearing in mind hardly anyone enters these things in the first place) would just end up with a few riders in an extra category. Which still represents no fairness between motors and where the one guy closest to the cut off weigh would still have the greatest advantage.

Ebike racing is stupid unless the motor advantage is cut out altogether. The only actually fair solution would mean either all riders would have to use the same motor.

The one exception to the rule would be a gravity race where motors are only allowed to be used on transition stages. and where tracks would need to be all be descents. The uphill thing was put in for spectator viewing. but anyone with a little common sense can see it's not even vaguely fair.

 

[Slowroller]

And who is talking about watching?

If no one is watching, no one is paying the cost of the events, or the purse, so talented riders will go to where the money is. Which is why road racing is where the top XC and CX riders have been siphoned of to. The biggest mtb race in the US this season paid out a whopping $5k to both the top man and woman for 4 days of racing. Not going to get rich racing bikes around here.

E-mtb racing will always be around in some form, because people will always want to race what they have, but unless it = $$$, it will remain as relevant as the Single Speed Worlds. The biggest issue with emtb racing is that it's not even close to fair with the disparity in the motors and I don't see that changing. Motors will continue to get more powerful with each new release, the only thing that will limit that is how much weight people want to lug around.

Does XC get eyeballs? I find it to be the second most unwatchable form of bike racing.

Pretty much. Womens is better as at least there are often lead changes, and I'll give them credit that the courses are much more technical than they were in the old days, but it's pretty far down on my list of diversions on a rainy day. It likely gets eyeballs in Europe since they like watching skinny people in lyrca go round and round more than we do.

 

[GrandPaBrogan]

Ebike racing is stupid unless the motor advantage is cut out altogether. The only actually fair solution would mean either all riders would have to use the same motor.

And also the same battery.
Using Formula E as a model - the motors and batteries all come from the same manufacturer which are supplied tamper-proof. I believe that only the gearbox is proprietary to each team. Not sure about the chassis and suspension, they appear to be identical.

But even then, even if everyone raced the same bike, motor and battery - the lighter riders would still have an advantage because lesser weight overall will still equate to lesser battery drain and so longer distance covered if that mattered. Even if not, a fresher battery will always allow a lighter rider to push the motor harder at the later stages of the race whereas the heavier riders would be pampering their batteries to last the distance.

I’m not disagreeing with you Gary that eBike racing is flawed in so many ways (and will always be) if viewed purely from an athletic standpoint alone. But if it can also be viewed as a race in technological advancement, then there maybe worthwhile benefits that would trickledown to the masses as they often do.

But yeah, absolute fairness may never be achieved in a format where power to weight ratio is just too critically influential. But I hope the organisers find a way to keep it going. That’s my 2cents. If you would rather see eBike racing get shut down altogether then cool. I’m not posting here to prove a point or change anyone’s mind.

 

[RickBullotta]

The performance differences betweeneach manufacturers motor currently means there is no fairness between competitors. Nevermind spitting into rider weight categories

As with ALL fitness sport. The athlete with the best physical size/strength/weight/efficiency who has trained hardest, cleverest and looked after their body best has the greatest physical advantage. after that it's all down to talent and luck on the day.
As for Ebike racing. Hardly anyone enters these things in the first place. with your idea of suggesting special categories to cater for less well suited riders (bearing in mind hardly anyone enters these things in the first place) would just end up with a few riders in an extra category. Which still represents no fairness between motors and where the one guy closest to the cut off weigh would still have the greatest advantage.

Ebike racing is stupid unless the motor advantage is cut out altogether. The only actually fair solution would mean either all riders would have to use the same motor.

The one exception to the rule would be a gravity race where motors are only allowed to be used on transition stages. and where tracks would need to be all be descents. The uphill thing was put in for spectator viewing. but anyone with a little common sense can see it's not even vaguely fair.

This. Spot on.

The only other option would be "spec series" sponsored by bike brands where all racers would be on equally configured eMTBs, as with some forms of motor racing and boat racing.

 

[Rosemount]

@Gary your old mate Jonesy at it again . LOL

 

[Mr-EPIC-3]

Honestly, I went from a big supporter of eMTB racing to more of a skeptic after doing a couple races and watching the evolution of the bikes. The reality is that there is simply too much variability in the technology (and the ability to tweak/manipulate the bikes) to enable "fair racing" at this stage. Yes, I know there is tech inspection and such, but easily gamed (I am 100% certain that a few of the racers in the podium in my races tweaked their Levos to maintain assistance past 20 MPH). For eMTB racing to be more interesting, I think it will require more homologation and standardization as in F1/Formula E or even "class racing" with identical bikes. The other approach is to make the course so technical that the impact of rider outweighs impact of bike. I'm not suggesting that teams/riders shouldn't seek advantage through better bike design and setup, but today it's just too widely distributed to make general eMTB racing a fair context. Enduro is certainly the best area to target initially (vs XC), and I like the way they made the uphill segment very technical.

I agree with you, manufactures have to put limits on motor Nm output in order to keep the racing fair. I still think there will end up being 2 classes, up to 90Nm (Shimano, Bosch, Brose, Yamaha) & over 90Nm (Bafang, TQ, Dyname). As far as the cheaters are concern, tech inspection will need to get better and oust the guys that are cheating.

 

[Mabman]

Present a demanding course of uphill/downhill and distance, line them all up and fire the gun. If a fat guy on a high power bike is first across the finish then technology wins, and if the opposite fitness does.

 

[Rosemount]