Ebike Acceptance
- Thread starter johnf0246
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Still young enough to understand how the forum quote function works
Why is that relevant? I couldn't tell you exactly how many miles I rode last year as I don't record every ride. But probably also somewhere around 6000 for the year. Split between an emtb, quite a few normal mtbs, roadbike and a BMX.
FWIW I have been riding Emtbs for over 3 years now and at a guess I must have ridden over 12000 miles on them in that time.
Why not?
Kinda ironic that you have an issue with my post. When the point of your thread is to advocate acceptance and inclusion. Don't you think?
Bullshit, so you need is lift weights. I weigh 170, my bike is 24kg and no problem
johnf0246
Active member
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Still young enough to understand how the forum quote function works
Why is that relevant? I couldn't tell you exactly how many miles I rode last year as I don't record every ride. But probably also somewhere around 6000 for the year. Split between an emtb, quite a few normal mtbs, roadbike and a BMX.
FWIW I have been riding Emtbs for over 3 years now and at a guess I must have ridden over 12000 miles on them in that time.
Why not?
Kinda ironic that you have an issue with my post. When the point of your thread is to advocate acceptance and inclusion. Don't you think?
Gary: You are really saying age isn’t important when discussing Ebiking? If that was true why would Park City, Utah allow Ebiking on their trail system to people 65 or older?
Since I ride with many riders 30 years or more younger than me I believe it allows me to keep up with them now, where I was struggling to keep even close to the back of the back.
I am totally impressed with your annual Ebike mileage. What is the total annual mileage on your road bike? Regular mountain bike? BMX bike?
See post #7
Like I said. I couldn't give you an accurate figure as I don't log every ride. But last month I rode my roadbike around 400miles (A lot of which was commuting), normal FS Enduro mtb about 100miles, 4X hardtail about 40miles, and didn't ride my DH bikes or BMX at all. This month may well be a very different mix but will still include around 400miles of commuting
I have 9 bikes BTW and tend to switch between my most ridden bikes fairly often. Hence not logging every ride or keeping track of exact mileages of each bike.
We're not discussing Ebiking in general, We're discussing access and what I am saying abour age is that it should never be used as an entry requirement to be allowed access to ride an Ebike on an otherwise accessible bike trail.
That's the bonkers thing about some places in americas rules, why should age be a determinant of whether you're allowed to ride an ebike at that place.
They should be allowing anyone to ride an ebike (class 1)regardless of age, gender, fitness, disability, injury etc.
Otherwise they just end up reinforcing the view that ebikes are just for the old, the disabled, the injured.
Age shouldnt be important or at all relevant. If all the people you can now keep up with on your ebike also got ebikes then youd be at the back again. Or are you saying only old people should be allowed an ebike? I don't think you are.
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johnf0246
Active member
- Thread starter
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See post #7
Like I said. I couldn't give you an accurate figure as I don't log every ride. But last month I rode my roadbike around 400miles (A lot of which was commuting), normal FS Enduro mtb about 100miles, 4X hardtail about 40miles, and didn't ride my DH bikes or BMX at all. This month may well be a very different mix but will still include around 400miles of commuting
I have 9 bikes BTW and tend to switch between my most ridden bikes fairly often. Hence not logging every ride or keeping track of exact mileages of each bike.
We're not discussing Ebiking in general, We're discussing access and what I am saying abour age is that it should never be used as an entry requirement to be allowed access to ride an Ebike on an otherwise accessible bike trail.
Gary: I would be perfectly happy if all land managers were to allow Class 1 Ebikes for riders 65 and older since I am older than 65. Once the land managers saw that that group didn’t create any significant negative impact on their trail system they would hopefully feel fine dropping the age to 60+ then lower.
It will be interesting to see how the environmentalist groups will end up changing the recent BLM
Bumped into this thread and I'm surprised that a country like US, where you drive with a V8 truck from your bedroom to the restroom to have a shit, is having problems accepting something with a motor in it.
This is a bit schizophrenic, isn't it?
I live in Germany and I think eMTBs are becoming the majority on our trails.
Went out in the black forest yesterday and there were far more eMTBs than bio-bikes (how we name analog bikes).
In my two years of eMTB riding i had only one idiot complaining about me and my wife buying our son an eMTB. The rest of the biobikers were totally normal. Most of them were curious and asked about how it rides and weight and stuff like that.
I use my eMTB not because I'm old or because I have disabilities but because I want to have fun uphill as well.
Uphill now became part of the joy and isn't an annoying necessity anymore.
It's kind of the same but different as well.
Sportscars, vans, trucks and family cars all share the same roads.
Why shouldn't that also apply for MTBs and eMTBs on trails?
What's the difference between 100kg man and 25kg bike compared to 100kg man and 15kg bike? How on earth could anyone imagine that these 10kg would make a real difference in trail wear?
I'm sure shredding a trail hard with a normal MTB with drifting and locking up brakes does a lot more harm to the ground.
This is a bit schizophrenic, isn't it?
I live in Germany and I think eMTBs are becoming the majority on our trails.
Went out in the black forest yesterday and there were far more eMTBs than bio-bikes (how we name analog bikes).
In my two years of eMTB riding i had only one idiot complaining about me and my wife buying our son an eMTB. The rest of the biobikers were totally normal. Most of them were curious and asked about how it rides and weight and stuff like that.
I use my eMTB not because I'm old or because I have disabilities but because I want to have fun uphill as well.
Uphill now became part of the joy and isn't an annoying necessity anymore.
It's kind of the same but different as well.
Sportscars, vans, trucks and family cars all share the same roads.
Why shouldn't that also apply for MTBs and eMTBs on trails?
What's the difference between 100kg man and 25kg bike compared to 100kg man and 15kg bike? How on earth could anyone imagine that these 10kg would make a real difference in trail wear?
I'm sure shredding a trail hard with a normal MTB with drifting and locking up brakes does a lot more harm to the ground.
But you are missing the point. On an ordinary bike he wouldn't have done anything like 6,000 miles he would have done maybe 3,000
So he's done twice the mileage at possibly half the output per mile.
I am in a similar position, approaching 60 l can still do my regular rides, but rather than killing myself on the climbs, l do them with less effort, but l get twice as far.
Since l got my Ebike l am actually losing weight. So something's working out. l think that the more steady effort that l put into Ebike riding is doing me more good than stretching myself to the absolute limit half a dozen times on every ride.
It's a choice. l've done regular MTB for years and love it.
But riding my Ebike has put a new joy into my rides.
And also l am getting out more. There's more incentive to jump on the Ebike after work, so l've been going out on days when l would most likely have stayed home.
Of course an e-bike is a viable alternative to a normal bike for exercise, obviously it depends on your original fitness level and how you ride it.
I'm a lot fitter than I was two years ago, achieved riding e-bikes.
We're don't all have the same biking history.
I'm a lot fitter than I was two years ago, achieved riding e-bikes.
We're don't all have the same biking history.
"Ah, shoes.... isn't that cheating?"
sendler2112
Member
So an hour at 90% heart rate and several peaks to 100% doesn't rate as a good workout to you?
Your average HR for the ride you posted was 137bpm (ie. 85% of 160)
Out of interest, have you actually done a propr max HR test on a normal bike? or are you just using the massively flawed estimated Max HR based on age method to set your max HR and training zones? If so your actual max may well be higher than 160.
60mins at 90% MAX HR wouldn't actually be enjoyable.
Personally I can't get anywhere near my actual max HR pedalling an Emtb uphill with motor assistance .
Out of interest, have you actually done a propr max HR test on a normal bike? or are you just using the massively flawed estimated Max HR based on age method to set your max HR and training zones? If so your actual max may well be higher than 160.
60mins at 90% MAX HR wouldn't actually be enjoyable.
Personally I can't get anywhere near my actual max HR pedalling an Emtb uphill with motor assistance .
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makes no difference what mode it's in.
johnf0246
Active member
- Thread starter
- #50
lightening: You make a good point, but it seems like Gary is in much better shape then most of us. I am not quite sure why he rides his Ebike on non-motorized trails 4,000 miles a year when his heart is hardly pumping on the uphills. It would sure be nice to be in as good of shape he is. I wonder if his heart rate would go up if he just rode his EBIKE in the off position, some how I doubt it would go up.
johnf0246
Active member
- Thread starter
- #51
Jorel: You make some good points about how illogical it is that in the US we don’t allow Ebikes on a lot of the tens of thousands of miles of mountain biking trails we have in our country.
When I read the environmental group rebutal to allowing Class 1, 2 & 3 Ebikes of 750 watts or less on BLM non-motorized trail you get a clear understanding what their perceived fears are. They are concerned mainly about the environment (i.e. reducing Elk and Grizzly Bear populations) and user conflicts (i.e. injuring or killing hikers or equestrians).
In Germany do you even have Elk and Grizzly Bears? Are your hikers and equestrians even fearful of Ebike riders?
Read this rebuttal and it gives you an idea what the Ebike haters concerns are:
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There are 9 eMTB’s on my lane now…and 3 more on order. My neighbor, who is 20 years younger, has an identical eMTB as I. I can’t match him on the downhill trails, but he can’t match me on the uphill trails. The gap between us has closed. So now we’re the same but different. Our bikes are slightly morphing to suit our styles but we can still venture out together. (And we promised not to ride in turbo.) lol.
Today we plan an eMTB 60-70km ride with 7 of the eMTB gang
Today we plan an eMTB 60-70km ride with 7 of the eMTB gang
This might be news to you but there's no such thing as a
I've never put much thought into working out why I can't max out my HR on an Eeb. It may even just be a psycological thing where I just don't want to push as hard as I'm prepared to on a normal bike.
here. Over here there are absolutely no trail access issues for mtb or Emtb. Granted we do have a better grasp on common sense and courtesy.
I ride it switched off every single time i ride it with my girlfriend or daughter on their normal bikes. Even with it off, climbing at their pace I'm rarely even breathing hard nevermind Anaerobic. I do also fairly often ride in "off" for the first climb at the start of a cold ride just to warm up or to save battery on rides with more than 5000ft elevation (504wh battery). I just ride for fun so pretty much never put in 90-95%max HR efforts on mtb climbs at all though nevermind 100%. It's not like I'm out training for anything.. But if I was I'd be using my roadbike.
I've never put much thought into working out why I can't max out my HR on an Eeb. It may even just be a psycological thing where I just don't want to push as hard as I'm prepared to on a normal bike.
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First question:
No, we don't.
But we have other wild animals like wild boar and not very often wolves.
For normal people enough to be frightend.
Second question:
They fear mountainbikers, no matter if they have a motor or not.
We have a discussion going on because of the rising amount of MTB riders and the concerns hikers have with them.
But eMTBs with limited speed of 25k are considered as normal bikes and not motorised vehicles.
Seems that the main problem is the definition of eMTB as a motorised vehicle.
Hope you'll sort this out soon.
Here in Squamish, the land of the super fit, other than the occasional "that is cheating or how about a tow" I don't get very many rude comments about my Levo SL. Then again, I don't go blasting by the acoustic bikes in full turbo or harass acoustic riders on climbing trails by yelling "RIDER" like some StravHoles do. The one thing that will continue to piss all mountain bikers off will be THOSE eMTB'rs who think its ok to ride UP a DOWN trail just because they have enough power to do so. Total A$$hole move.
The other issue is, if you support your local trails (trail days or financially) you have more of a right to use the trails than the leaches who do neither.
The other issue is, if you support your local trails (trail days or financially) you have more of a right to use the trails than the leaches who do neither.
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Around here most people are friendly to EMTBs (and bikes) Walkers are slowly starting to understand the reason all the windfall after the winter gets cleared earlier and earlier in the season is because bikers brings saws with them and ebikers brings (electric) chainsaws. It’s NOT the landowners who clears the trees (They are happy that we clear the trails on their land in general)
They're not concerned about the environment or user conflicts. I've, out of interest, read a few of the papers submitted by the walkers and horse riders. They make spurious claims with no evidence and no experience. They present opinion as fact with little or no research and much fear mongering. The simple reality is they have power and influence and they don't want to lose that to a bunch of long haired hippie yahoos. 'Cause they know best for the trails and what's best for everybody else. ie: they want the trails to themselves, or at least no more people using *their* trails than there already are....... Reeks of the same arguments skiers made when snowboarding first became a thing. I really don't know if a logical fact based approach will even work. They have made up their minds and hang on doggedly like the US does to the Imperial system (one of only 3.5 countries in the world to do so).
Does anyone seriously believe that one of the largest land predators on earth is afraid of a stringy girl on an eBike? FFS!! These are the same people who would probably shoot the fucking bear if they ever ran across one. And I assume you understand what a horse does to the environment (and trail damage) compared to a bike?
There are exactly two rational reasons to worry about eBikes. One is the prevalence of de-restricted bikes travelling at speeds not really possible by an elite rider on a normal bike. And the selfish few fucktards who had shit parents and have no manners who think it's cool to blast by someone on the trail like an entitled arsehole just because they can. Mostly though these are both the same group and can be dealt with by the rest of the eBike community by creating a safe riding culture. I'm not saying you can't ride an unrestricted bike at stupid speeds. Just do it on trails that you're not sharing with other people. Or save it for race day.
(North) America, is actually an anomaly in the EMTB world. You guys may have invented mountain biking but you're years behind on EMTB's (and honestly, mountain bike access as well). If your land managers actually gave a shit they could look at pretty much anywhere else and see that EMTB's can, and do, share the trails with others with almost no additional trail impacts, other than the one created by the fact more people are on the trails, which your walkers don't want. Most of the rest of the world just doesn't have access issues. A bike is a bike and an unrestricted class 1 eBike is a bike. So what we get is more riders one the trails. More bike shops selling more bikes. More trail development with more government funding to support our growing sport. Which means all bike riders benefit from having eBikes on the trails.
If the US wanted to see what happens then just look at Europe, which leads the world in shared usage. And no, the sky didn't fall when eBikes entered the trails.
Here in Oz, our governments are putting millions into mountain biking in every state. We have mountain biking towns where the streets and bike shops are lined with hire bikes and eBikes. We have wilderness trails with some of the best turns on the planet where they actually recommend you ride an eBike because the trail is so long. We have riders on acoustic bikes who have an eBike they ride when the local uplift isn't running. Clubs have record memberships. Races have eBike categories. Tasmania, which has a population about the same as the area I live in (500K) has three world class bike destinations with another three being built now. Conservationists here are looking at using activities like mountain biking as a way to create sustainable wilderness areas, safe from mining and logging. Trails use a fraction of a percent of the land they sit on. That means they can both utilise the land and have 99% available to the native wildlife. It's a win win.
Meanwhile you guys are arguing over whether a half tonne elk will be damaged by a 200 pound rider/bike and letting someone on a horse lecture you about trail damage?
Gordon
Pan
New Member
Yepp yet an other Gary’s way or no way. You strike me like a very frustrated person, but i’m sure you will try to convince me otherwise. Good luck.
johnf0246
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- #60
KnollyBro: I totally agree with your point about volunteering for trail days. I have put thousands of hours into maintaining the non-system trails. I am fully aware about the wear and tear the trail users and Mother Nature does to those trails and how to mitigate the damage and add trail fixes that reduce future damage that Mother Nature creates. Thanks for the insightful post.
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