Ebike Acceptance

[johnf0246]

They're not concerned about the environment or user conflicts. I've, out of interest, read a few of the papers submitted by the walkers and horse riders. They make spurious claims with no evidence and no experience. They present opinion as fact with little or no research and much fear mongering. The simple reality is they have power and influence and they don't want to lose that to a bunch of long haired hippie yahoos. 'Cause they know best for the trails and what's best for everybody else. ie: they want the trails to themselves, or at least no more people using *their* trails than there already are....... Reeks of the same arguments skiers made when snowboarding first became a thing. I really don't know if a logical fact based approach will even work. They have made up their minds and hang on doggedly like the US does to the Imperial system (one of only 3.5 countries in the world to do so).

Does anyone seriously believe that one of the largest land predators on earth is afraid of a stringy girl on an eBike? FFS!! These are the same people who would probably shoot the fucking bear if they ever ran across one. And I assume you understand what a horse does to the environment (and trail damage) compared to a bike?

There are exactly two rational reasons to worry about eBikes. One is the prevalence of de-restricted bikes travelling at speeds not really possible by an elite rider on a normal bike. And the selfish few fucktards who had shit parents and have no manners who think it's cool to blast by someone on the trail like an entitled arsehole just because they can. Mostly though these are both the same group and can be dealt with by the rest of the eBike community by creating a safe riding culture. I'm not saying you can't ride an unrestricted bike at stupid speeds. Just do it on trails that you're not sharing with other people. Or save it for race day.

(North) America, is actually an anomaly in the EMTB world. You guys may have invented mountain biking but you're years behind on EMTB's (and honestly, mountain bike access as well). If your land managers actually gave a shit they could look at pretty much anywhere else and see that EMTB's can, and do, share the trails with others with almost no additional trail impacts, other than the one created by the fact more people are on the trails, which your walkers don't want. Most of the rest of the world just doesn't have access issues. A bike is a bike and an unrestricted class 1 eBike is a bike. So what we get is more riders one the trails. More bike shops selling more bikes. More trail development with more government funding to support our growing sport. Which means all bike riders benefit from having eBikes on the trails.

If the US wanted to see what happens then just look at Europe, which leads the world in shared usage. And no, the sky didn't fall when eBikes entered the trails.

Here in Oz, our governments are putting millions into mountain biking in every state. We have mountain biking towns where the streets and bike shops are lined with hire bikes and eBikes. We have wilderness trails with some of the best turns on the planet where they actually recommend you ride an eBike because the trail is so long. We have riders on acoustic bikes who have an eBike they ride when the local uplift isn't running. Clubs have record memberships. Races have eBike categories. Tasmania, which has a population about the same as the area I live in (500K) has three world class bike destinations with another three being built now. Conservationists here are looking at using activities like mountain biking as a way to create sustainable wilderness areas, safe from mining and logging. Trails use a fraction of a percent of the land they sit on. That means they can both utilise the land and have 99% available to the native wildlife. It's a win win.

Meanwhile you guys are arguing over whether a half tonne elk will be damaged by a 200 pound rider/bike and letting someone on a horse lecture you about trail damage?

Gordon

Gordon: You post was brilliant. You hit most every point as to why mountain biking and eBiking are two great ways to recreate. If you don’t mind I would like to share your post with some Recreation Employees who work for the BLM and National Forest.

Your point about the very small footprint trails make is one I use regularly.

 

[johnf0246]

Yepp yet an other Gary’s way or no way. You strike me like a very frustrated person, but i’m sure you will try to convince me otherwise. Good luck.

Pan: I actually believe Gary is making up the information in his posts. I am not sure why he is doing it, but it sure seems that way. I wish there was some way he could validate his claims.

 

[johnf0246]

Around here most people are friendly to EMTBs (and bikes) Walkers are slowly starting to understand the reason all the windfall after the winter gets cleared earlier and earlier in the season is because bikers brings saws with them and ebikers brings (electric) chainsaws. It’s NOT the landowners who clears the trees (They are happy that we clear the trails on their land in general)

Yoak: I do believe that you are correct about mountain bikers and eBikers doing a lot of trail clearing after a harsh winter. Where I live they would not be happy that volunteers are clearing the trails because of CONTROL ISSUES. They have special people who have been specially trained to remove a fallen tree from blocking the trail. I think it has something to do with job security and supposed safety issues.

 

[Yoak]

Yoak: I do believe that you are correct about mountain bikers and eBikers doing a lot of trail clearing after a harsh winter. Where I live they would not be happy that volunteers are clearing the trails because of CONTROL ISSUES. They have special people who have been specially trained to remove a fallen tree from blocking the trail. I think it has something to do with job security and supposed safety issues.

I can understand that. Clearing trees can be dangerous. We often go out in small groups making sure some know what they are doing with chainsaw, the others will be dragging and clearing what’s been cut

 

[flash]

Gordon: You post was brilliant. You hit most every point as to why mountain biking and eBiking are two great ways to recreate. If you don’t mind I would like to share your post with some Recreation Employees who work for the BLM and National Forest.

Your point about the very small footprint trails make is one I use regularly.

Sure. share away. Although I'm just a fat middle aged white guy from the other side of the planet....

Gordon

 

[Endoguru]

So glad we don't have to put up with the crap you Americans deal with. Here, more bikes the better. More bikes equals more trails and more funding. Our governments are providing record funding to mountain biking because it's a growing sport. Most of that is eBikes. We don't give a shit, what you ride, as long as you're not a dick. You guys will all get banned because the horse riders are organised and you're too busy arguing over whether an electric or acoustic guitar is best.

If anyone thinks an average eBike makes more damage than a fit competition level rider on a clockwork bike they have their head up their arse. Maybe it's time you banned MTB racing as well....

The only way you'll convince them is get them on an eBike.

Gordon

This is a very sad but true statement about MTB in America. I’ve been riding since the early 80’s and the absurd argument over supposed trail damage is a joke. Like a 50lb bike is ever going to do more damage than a 1500lb horse, or a 250lb rider on a 32lb mountain bike is going to do less damage than a 180lb rider on a 50lb bike. Its all just bikes and riders having the most fun possible in the end.

 

[Pan]

Pan: I actually believe Gary is making up the information in his posts. I am not sure why he is doing it, but it sure seems that way. I wish there was some way he could validate his claims.

It’s not the claims, it’s the general attitude. Hard to be subtle when it’s too much, too little or the wrong way. Enough said.

 

[Stihldog]

Here in Squamish, the land of the super fit,…

The other issue is, if you support your local trails (trail days or financially) you have more of a right to use the trails than the leaches who do neither.

I haven’t rode Squamish yet but yes, it kinda frightens me. You better be fit…and brave in paradise. The trails there are a definite destination.

 

[Stihldog]

Yoak: I do believe that you are correct about mountain bikers and eBikers doing a lot of trail clearing after a harsh winter. Where I live they would not be happy that volunteers are clearing the trails because of CONTROL ISSUES. They have special people who have been specially trained to remove a fallen tree from blocking the trail. I think it has something to do with job security and supposed safety issues.

I can understand the need for training in all aspects of tree removal. I’ve seen numerous accidents and deaths when things go wrong. We’re only a bag-of-water amongst these, where a 2” limb under stress can kill. And a small chainsaw is likely to cause more injury than a large chainsaw. As a west coast heli-faller (Vancouver Island) I’ve seen, experienced and heard the horror of tree removal. Proper training, safety equipment and first-aid supplies is helpful. I’m only a rookie when it comes to bike repair or trail building …but tree removal can be serious business. A fallen tree, under stress, moving 2”, can put you in a chair for the rest of your life.
The volunteers for this sport are essential, as long as we stay in our lane.

 

[Sparky DH]

So glad we don't have to put up with the crap you Americans deal with. Here, more bikes the better. More bikes equals more trails and more funding. Our governments are providing record funding to mountain biking because it's a growing sport. Most of that is eBikes. We don't give a shit, what you ride, as long as you're not a dick. You guys will all get banned because the horse riders are organised and you're too busy arguing over whether an electric or acoustic guitar is best.

If anyone thinks an average eBike makes more damage than a fit competition level rider on a clockwork bike they have their head up their arse. Maybe it's time you banned MTB racing as well....

The only way you'll convince them is get them on an eBike.

Gordon

In our state (USA), there was even a turf war between road cyclists and the local town cop chief. It was ugly but because the roadies were taking up the road so it was part of their fault. Motorists don't want to share, cyclists push to share but it boils down to our country at least in our area have absolutely no safe room for a dedicated bike lane. I don't get it because we have SO much land in New Hampshire and really only reserve such space for highways; probably to push all the snow to the side. Riding locally on the road is a scary idea I haven't even thought of, unfortunately.

 

[johnf0246]

I can understand the need for training in all aspects of tree removal. I’ve seen numerous accidents and deaths when things go wrong. We’re only a bag-of-water amongst these, where a 2” limb under stress can kill. And a small chainsaw is likely to cause more injury than a large chainsaw. As a west coast heli-faller (Vancouver Island) I’ve seen, experienced and heard the horror of tree removal. Proper training, safety equipment and first-aid supplies is helpful. I’m only a rookie when it comes to bike repair or trail building …but tree removal can be serious business. A fallen tree, under stress, moving 2”, can put you in a chair for the rest of your life.
The volunteers for this sport are essential, as long as we stay in our lane.

Stihldog: We all agree clearing fallen trees off mountain biking trails can be dangerous. The problem with getting a specially trained land manager sawyer out on most trails which need clearing is that they don’t have the same passion to get the trails cleared as experienced chain saw owners who are also mountain bikers.

99.99% of the time experienced mountain bikers who have lots of chain saw experience can respond much quicker to blowdown areas and not get injured, so that happens in many areas. I personally have never seen anyone injured doing trail clearing. Maybe others could chime in who have been out on trail clearing projects that they have worked on where the operators have gotten seriously injured.

 

[urastus]

I kind of see ebikes as inevitable regardless of what we say or do here. I seriously believe that emtb will be more popular than mtb before long. I'm not pro one or the other, I still like both.

I do see one potential impediment, especially in the US where shuttles and chair lifts are big business and therefore may hold some sway. Here in Aus they aren't so plentiful, but more tracks are being made that more or less depend on shuttles; I think that is by design, unfortunately. Some shuttle services are already trying to make people believe that theirs is the only safe service, even on public road; I've experienced this in St Helen's. They have many believing that the road they use for the shuttle is theirs. I don't like that sort of controlling behaviour. Some riders even side with the shuttle services saying that someone who does their own shuttle are a danger by being on the road. Well, that's true of course, just as it is with the shuttle bus and big arse trailer behind it. I really like to do my own riding up, and preferably on an interesting track with some features. I've never liked shuttles whether my own or a business.

 

[Stihldog]

The problem with getting a specially trained land manager sawyer out on most trails which need clearing is that they don’t have the same passion to get the trails cleared as experienced chain saw owners who are also mountain bikers.
99.99% of the time experienced mountain bikers who have lots of chain saw experience can respond much quicker to blowdown areas

I agree. Finding a combination of a skilled chainsaw operator and passionate MTB’er/hiker can be difficult.

 

[jerry]

I realize many in the EU find the legal speed/power regulations overly restrictive; but it's one rule I actually applaud, as I believe this to be one of the reasons why I've not seen any discussion MTB<->EMTB access rights.
Similarly, aside from a short community adaptation period towards the concept of an EMTB a few years back, I dare say I haven't had any negative comments in years, rather on the contrary.

 

[johnf0246]

I realize many in the EU find the legal speed/power regulations overly restrictive; but it's one rule I actually applaud, as I believe this to be one of the reasons why I've not seen any discussion MTB<->EMTB access rights.
Similarly, aside from a short community adaptation period towards the concept of an EMTB a few years back, I dare say I haven't had any negative comments in years, rather on the contrary.

i think in Europe you are probably correct about the lower motor speed cut off at 15.5 mph being a factor in less negativity towards eBikes on your non-motorized trails.

 

[Slowroller]

I realize many in the EU find the legal speed/power regulations overly restrictive; but it's one rule I actually applaud, as I believe this to be one of the reasons why I've not seen any discussion MTB<->EMTB access rights.
Similarly, aside from a short community adaptation period towards the concept of an EMTB a few years back, I dare say I haven't had any negative comments in years, rather on the contrary.

If we had the same laws, I think having the same access as mtbs would be already done and dusted.

 

[Jon A]

In my opinion, writing laws in an attempt to pacify the least informed among us and those fundamentally opposed to what you do anyway, usually makes for bad policy and rarely makes a significant number of those people suddenly flip a 180 and become supporters of what you do.

I'm new to the debate, but it seems to me some of the loudest voices opposed to e-bike access don't know a whole lot about e-bikes and their reasons are largely based upon made-up perceptions, not realities (excepting those opposed to all bike access of any type, of which there are many and certainly wouldn't be pacified by a 5 MPH speed reduction).

When I ride my analog MTB or Fatbike offroad, unless it's a 1-way trip uphill the entire way, I exceed 20 MPH quite often with no motor at all. The top speed usually has nothing to do with my legs, but mostly my pucker-factor limit for the terrain. Maybe it's my lack of experience, but I find 20-25 MPH on a bike gets pretty scary pretty fast unless you're on pavement. My 4X4 has about 500 HP and probably tops out somewhere close to 140 MPH. So how often do I hit this speed offroad? Obviously never, never even 1/2 that fast--rarely even 1/4 that fast. The theoretical top speed of my truck has no bearing on how fast I drive it offroad.

I would guess if you put most of the anti-E-bike people on a trail where regular bikes and e-bikes--some with 15.5 MPH, some with 20 MPH and some unrestricted--were running, they'd have a difficult time discerning which was which, much less actually demonstrating in some meaningful way how the 15.5 MPH bikes were fine but the others were not. Especially since all the bikes would be exceeding 20 MPH on any downhill where the terrain allowed it anyway.

In my opinion, those opposed to all bike access on specific trails have the most legitimate case for some trails. A bike is a bike is a bike and if bikes are allowed they are going to cause all the problems bikes can possibly cause (real or perceived) be they analog or ebike, regardless of top speed restrictions.

I really think if the law was changed to limit the top speed of motor assist down to 15.5 MPH it would not get a significant number of people/groups/organizations opposed to ebike access to become supporters. Certainly not enough to be worth doing.

 

[Mike D.]

Oh YAAAAWN. Blah blah blah blablablah blah. Who cares.

Time for a stunningly enjoyable ride.

On my ebike. ?

 

[johnf0246]

Oh YAAAAWN. Blah blah blah blablablah blah. Who cares.

Time for a stunningly enjoyable ride.

On my ebike. ?

Mike D: You have the best solution.

 

[Jline2020]

makes no difference what mode it's in.

Turn your EBike off and go for a ride, I guarantee it will be more of a workout than a regular bike

 

[Gary]

Turn your EBike off and go for a ride, I guarantee it will be more of a workout than a regular bike

 

[RobertR]

I ride an eMTB because it’s a blast.
here in the USA if any asks me about it I let them ride it every time.
If anyone complains to me on the trail I say I’m handicapped and they feel like a tool. ??

 

[Rusty]

I have some to the conclusion that a 40k ride on an eMTB is more beneficial to you than a 40k ride on an unpowered bike.
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If you do it with your motor powered off.



There - I have spoken and made a definitive declaration.
Prove me wrong.

 

[johnf0246]

Class 1-3 are all 750w nominal, which is based on the older federal law for ebikes. We're all on 250w emtbs because of the European laws. I'm starting to see more 750w and higher emtbs out there, but they're of a lesser quality, at least now.

The DOI is being sued for allowing ebikes in National Parks without following the proper reviews, I'm expecting the same to happen to the BLM if this is any indication.

www.bcha.org/wp-content/uploads/2020/07/TWS-BCHA-et-al-Comments-on-BLM-Ebike-Rulemaking.pdf?fbclid=IwAR25fakvNC0JZxmIVa3PhUxgm2ArUtzRG43QwpMo4AZSnKhEquuZc9Tr_Dk

Slow:

I was recently in contact with the US BLM person David Jeppsen, Travel and Transportation Specialist and he indicated that the Rebuttal you posted was given to the BLM prior to the new Ebike RIN 1004-AE72 ruling. So it looks like they took into account the environmental and user conflict concerns of those people and made the current ruling in spite of that groups concern. I look at that as a positive movement forward for Ebike usage on BLM land.

 

[Slowroller]

Slow:

I was recently in contact with the US BLM person David Jeppsen, Travel and Transportation Specialist and he indicated that the Rebuttal you posted was given to the BLM prior to the new Ebike RIN 1004-AE72 ruling. So it looks like they took into account the environmental and user conflict concerns of those people and made the current ruling in spite of that groups concern. I look at that as a positive movement forward for Ebike usage on BLM land.

It was, it was submitted during the public process, just like you and I likely submitted our opinions. I'm not sure how many public processes you've been part of, but IME, whatever issue they're about has already been decided by whoever gets to make the decisions. The "public" part of the public process is just to fulfill legal requirements and is lip service. My expectation given who were co-signers is that a suit will now follow, the heavy hitters on that list use lawsuits to drive their policy.

 

[johnf0246]

It was, it was submitted during the public process, just like you and I likely submitted our opinions. I'm not sure how many public processes you've been part of, but IME, whatever issue they're about has already been decided by whoever gets to make the decisions. The "public" part of the public process is just to fulfill legal requirements and is lip service. My expectation given who were co-signers is that a suit will now follow, the heavy hitters on that list use lawsuits to drive their policy.

Slow:

I have sent about six public comments to the land managers requesting those due to the NEPA process in my local area and surrounding states. I have been involved locally during the Categorical Exclusion process guiding the ologists on new trail adoption additions not needing a NEPA. I have also seen new trail flagging by the land manager to show the ologists where a new proposed trail is initially intended to go.

In Moab, UT I have witnessed the addition and adoption of over 200 miles of new system trails. I have witnessed miles of user created trails being denied then ten years later being approved.

Do you think the environmentalists will FAIL with their lawsuits like I do?

 

[Rusty]

They're not concerned about the environment or user conflicts. I've, out of interest, read a few of the papers submitted by the walkers and horse riders. They make spurious claims with no evidence and no experience. They present opinion as fact with little or no research and much fear mongering.

Great post Gordon - missed it last time in this thread.

I will just reference this small portion though. On a recent ride I came across several trails that were falling apart and needed serious remedial work - all because of horses. They had broken through the top layer and created divots that eventually washed out in many places causing major repair headache. This was on a MTB only trail too BTW and a reasonable distance from the horse trails.
As a trail builder - I don't mind pedal assist bikes (even the high powered ones) but do hate throttle controlled units that are commonly cheap Chinese junk that are really mopeds and not eMTB.
As far as horse go - I come from a long line of owner, trainers and jockeys with many a morning as a youngster at the stables for track work. That an eMTB can damage horse trails is a fallacy and pretty much improbably. A smaller horse is somewhere around 450kg (1000 lbs) with our race horses in the 500-600kg range (1100 - 1300lb) - all on being generous 5" diameter hooves. That is say 130kg + per hoof (including rider) as compared to what 60kg per wheel for a eMTB?

 

[Slowroller]

Do you think the environmentalists will FAIL with their lawsuits like I do?

Eventually, but it'll take years since the BLM didn't do their due diligence and follow all the bureaucratic steps required before granting blanket access. Studies, tests, NEPAs all the hoops will have to be jumped through first. The DOI secretary basically just shrugged and said "Sure, whatever" and signed the order last year, since then, they've backtracked and sat around waiting for whoever is next to give direction. I'd like to see access granted soon, but it's not like it matters, no one notices, no one cares.

 

[johnf0246]

Eventually, but it'll take years since the BLM didn't do their due diligence and follow all the bureaucratic steps required before granting blanket access. Studies, tests, NEPAs all the hoops will have to be jumped through first. The DOI secretary basically just shrugged and said "Sure, whatever" and signed the order last year, since then, they've backtracked and sat around waiting for whoever is next to give direction. I'd like to see access granted soon, but it's not like it matters, no one notices, no one cares.

Slow:

Every BLM office I have called is totally on board with the new ruling. They are evaluating each new non motorized trail for EBike use. I think the environmentalists are going to be wasting a lot of their money fighting the new ruling.

 

[soundwave]

The older I get, the less I give a fu** what other people think of me - or my bike