Ebike Acceptance

[johnf0246]

So whenever I come across an outright Ebike hater, I ask them if they have considered taking some time to reduce their hate towards a growing part of the mountain bike community who has found it beneficial to acquire a Class1 pedal assist Ebike to keep up with their spouse or younger friends? I tell the haters yoga, meditation and stretching are good ways of reducing hostility towards Ebikers.

I was hoping to get other Ebikers to share their successful methods of changing the negative attitude a small percentage of mountain bikers have towards older responsible Ebikers they encounter on a trail they are riding?

As some people are aware some land managers have decided to allow all Ebikers over 65 years old to enjoy riding on their whole trail system. When I run across an Ebike hater, I inform them that some land managers have allowed people over 65 to ride on their trail system. Most of the haters are OK with that policy.

Recently, I called several BLM Field Offices and asked how they are progressing with their allowing Ebikers to use Class 1 Ebikes on BLM non-motorized trails in their districts. Their answers were all over the board. Some said they were fine with it and others said they weren’t. One office I talked to said they weren’t officially allowing it, but they were not writing any warnings or citations. The recreation ranger in that field office called around and said that it looks like going forward whenever a new non-motorized trail is created as a mountain bike trail the environmental assessment will be done to ascertain if Ebikes will cause any more environmental damage to the new trail addition than a mountain bike, hiker, trail runner or equestrian. We all know what the answer to that question will be.

 

[flash]

So glad we don't have to put up with the crap you Americans deal with. Here, more bikes the better. More bikes equals more trails and more funding. Our governments are providing record funding to mountain biking because it's a growing sport. Most of that is eBikes. We don't give a shit, what you ride, as long as you're not a dick. You guys will all get banned because the horse riders are organised and you're too busy arguing over whether an electric or acoustic guitar is best.

If anyone thinks an average eBike makes more damage than a fit competition level rider on a clockwork bike they have their head up their arse. Maybe it's time you banned MTB racing as well....

The only way you'll convince them is get them on an eBike.

Gordon

 

[Mteam]

It's is odd how in America the majority of mtb'ers seem to hate emtb's with a passion, and only view them as acceptable if the rider is old or carrying a significant injury or disability. And it probably doesn't help people to change that view if owners of trail systems say that ebikes are only allowed if the rider is over 65 or has a disability.

Sure there's a few like that in the UK, but not many.

It's a very odd thing, I don't understand it. But as mentioned you mtb'ers need to stick together not argue amongst yourselves, otherwise you'll find less access for all types of bike.

 

[Slowroller]

As some people are aware some land managers have decided to allow all Ebikers over 65 years old to enjoy riding on their whole trail system. When I run across an Ebike hater, I inform them that some land managers have allowed people over 65 to ride on their trail system. Most of the haters are OK with that policy.

Where is that? Never heard of that policy.

 

[jan1of1]

Hey we have the same problem with tourers and commuters. Best course of action is to stay calm, show respect for their opinion, and cycle on. You'll see that same person on an ebike in a few years...if not shorter period of time. When that happens, just nod your head and say hello...and cycle on.

 

[Acousticmood]

Here in America we love to waive the flag of our tribe and denigrate those of the other tribes.

Unfortunately.

 

[Gary]

Murca still be mental

 

[Doomanic]

Word!

 

[johnf0246]

Where is that? Never heard of that policy.

Park City, Utah. In St George Utah riding Ebikes on non motorized trail out side of the Wilderness is tolerated.

I spoke to a BLM representative today who indicates their organization is working on a new Ebike policy, as of today nothing has been formulated.

I am jealous of how Ebiking is being viewed across the pond. I do think it will progress in a Ebike positive manner.

 

[lightning]

l've not had any hate levelled against my Ebike here in the UK

I've had a few "that's cheating" but not said with hate as far as l can tell.

There's no real dislike of Ebikes being on trails as far as l know, although in the U.K. they are restricted to 15.5mph so maybe not as noticeable because they don't appear go any faster than ordinary bikes (except on steeper climbs)

There are a fair number of Ebikes around, to be honest l don't think other trail users really notice them, or take any notice of them.

 

[ccwilli3]

I usually laugh it off when called a cheater, then say 'its only cheating if you get caught'. Only once was a guy upset, I asked him if he liked having more than 1 gear to pedal up a hill and back home was cheating and if the single speed guy thought he should be out here riding either and he didn't have an answer.

Lots of educating still to be done.

 

[Gyre]

I was hoping to get other Ebikers to share their successful methods of changing the negative attitude a small percentage of mountain bikers have towards older responsible Ebikers they encounter on a trail they are riding?

There are definitely some vocal types in our own community who have the attitude that young people shouldn't have pedal assist, and older people need to hang up their bikes if they can't handle it under their own power.

The most successful method will be sweeping the haters into irrelevance. As long as the trails are legalized for Class 1, eMTB adoption is growing fast and the Luddites can go piss in the ocean for all the good it will do them.

 

[Shinn]

I've not ran into too many issues. I am however lucky that I truly don't care what others feel or like/dislike about me or my bike.

I am concerned that here in the US if we don't educate the park service, etc. more and more trails are likely to be closed the EMTB - its likely to come down to educating those abut the differences between the various classes of EBikes as well as make sure they aren't being put into same category as the electric motorcycles. (which, frankly look like a bunch of fun)

 

[johnf0246]

This is some US National BLM Ebike news ( E-bikes on public lands | Bureau of Land Management )
that I was given by a junior BLM recreation specialist in the state of Utah.

Upon reading it I was encouraged that individual Field Offices can allow Ebikes in their jurisdiction on non motorized trails that mountain bikers currently use, if they fall under the NEPA guidelines.

I couldn’t figure out why they mention bikes not more than 750 watts are considered Ebikes. I was thinking Class 1 Ebikes of 250
watts or less would be a better starting point.

 

[Gnarlyrider]

Thankfully, here in Switzerland class 1 ebikes can use trails just like any motorless bike. I haven't gotten a lot of negative comments about riding an ebike. Sure, a few times a hiker has said something like: "Ah, a motor... isn't that cheating?" But nothing rude or so. Often it's an antipathy towards bikers in general than ebikers in particular. Not much I can do about that except to remain friendly and not give them a reason to be even more disgruntled.

I really don't get the policy in the US. I mean, I've been in Moab twice (riding without a motor, awesome trails), you have ATV and MX and offroader tracks everywhere and those vehicles driving around iek crazy, but an ebike on a mtb-singletrack is a problem?
And I rode in the Lake Tahoe area (beautiful!) where loads of people shuttled themselves by using at least two cars. Wouldn't it be better if they used an ebike? No need for a shuttle, enjoy the uphill thanks to the assist from the motor, let the hair fly on the downhill, no need to ride the car back up to retrieve the other vehicle...
Sure, that's a very limited sample size, but it's just strange to me.

 

[johnf0246]

Thankfully, here in Switzerland class 1 ebikes can use trails just like any motorless bike. I haven't gotten a lot of negative comments about riding an ebike. Sure, a few times a hiker has said something like: "Ah, a motor... isn't that cheating?" But nothing rude or so. Often it's an antipathy towards bikers in general than ebikers in particular. Not much I can do about that except to remain friendly and not give them a reason to be even more disgruntled.

I really don't get the policy in the US. I mean, I've been in Moab twice (riding without a motor, awesome trails), you have ATV and MX and offroader tracks everywhere and those vehicles driving around iek crazy, but an ebike on a mtb-singletrack is a problem?
And I rode in the Lake Tahoe area (beautiful!) where loads of people shuttled themselves by using at least two cars. Wouldn't it be better if they used an ebike? No need for a shuttle, enjoy the uphill thanks to the assist from the motor, let the hair fly on the downhill, no need to ride the car back up to retrieve the other vehicle...
Sure, that's a very limited sample size, but it's just strange to me.

G: I totally agree with everything you said.

 

[Gyre]

I really don't get the policy in the US. I mean, I've been in Moab twice (riding without a motor, awesome trails), you have ATV and MX and offroader tracks everywhere and those vehicles driving around iek crazy, but an ebike on a mtb-singletrack is a problem?
And I rode in the Lake Tahoe area (beautiful!) where loads of people shuttled themselves by using at least two cars. Wouldn't it be better if they used an ebike? No need for a shuttle, enjoy the uphill thanks to the assist from the motor, let the hair fly on the downhill, no need to ride the car back up to retrieve the other vehicle...
Sure, that's a very limited sample size, but it's just strange to me.

Legacy interest groups over here (i.e. Sierra Club, equestrian groups, etc) are more hostile than friendly towards MTBs full stop. Also, for the past several decades they have been winning the battle to have the forest service interpret Wilderness laws to ban MTBs from all trails in designated "Wilderness Areas". Under the guise of protecting forests from "development" politicians have been happy to agree to create new wilderness areas and effectively create new bans.

A little over a decade ago, a couple of us did some riding around the Tioga Pass area. One of the trails we were exploring went around Saddlebag Lake. This trail eventually runs into a Wilderness boundary. It was unbelievable. Several times along the way we had hikers scold us to not cross the boundary. There was so much animosity that we were being told off even though we had never crossed.

On top of that, the MTB community is badly divided because we have a lot of vocal would-be elitists and gatekeepers who flatly consider eMTBs to be motorcycles, full stop. Some of them are against anything that makes it easier to reach the top of trailheads they don't want to share. The irony is that shuttling with a car is considered perfectly normal, and indeed there are popular services for hire that do nothing but drive a bunch of riders up to the top of a trailhead.

 

[johnf0246]

Legacy interest groups over here (i.e. Sierra Club, equestrian groups, etc) are more hostile than friendly towards MTBs full stop. Also, for the past several decades they have been winning the battle to have the forest service interpret Wilderness laws to ban MTBs from all trails in designated "Wilderness Areas". Under the guise of protecting forests from "development" politicians have been happy to agree to create new wilderness areas and effectively create new bans.

A little over a decade ago, a couple of us did some riding around the Tioga Pass area. One of the trails we were exploring went around Saddlebag Lake. This trail eventually runs into a Wilderness boundary. It was unbelievable. Several times along the way we had hikers scold us to not cross the boundary. There was so much animosity that we were being told off even though we had never crossed.

On top of that, the MTB community is badly divided because we have a lot of vocal would-be elitists and gatekeepers who flatly consider eMTBs to be motorcycles, full stop. Some of them are against anything that makes it easier to reach the top of trailheads they don't want to share. The irony is that shuttling with a car is considered perfectly normal, and indeed there are popular services for hire that do nothing but drive a bunch of riders up to the top of a trailhead.

G: Have you ever heard of the word Ageist? An Ageist is a person who discriminates against old people who ride Ebikes to improve their health and hopefully live longer.

With all this Covid mask wearing stuff going on you would think Ebike haters would understand that.

 

[Gyre]

G: Have you ever heard of the word Agist? An Agist is a person who discriminates against old people who ride Ebikes to improve their health and hopefully live longer.

With all this Covid mask wearing stuff going on you would think Ebike haters would understand that.

IMHO the vocal minority is not really motivated by ageism or ableism. They reject age or inability as an excuse because they accept no rationale at all.

 

[Slowroller]

I couldn’t figure out why they mention bikes not more than 750 watts are considered Ebikes. I was thinking Class 1 Ebikes of 250
watts or less would be a better starting point.

Class 1-3 are all 750w nominal, which is based on the older federal law for ebikes. We're all on 250w emtbs because of the European laws. I'm starting to see more 750w and higher emtbs out there, but they're of a lesser quality, at least now.

The DOI is being sued for allowing ebikes in National Parks without following the proper reviews, I'm expecting the same to happen to the BLM if this is any indication.

www.bcha.org/wp-content/uploads/2020/07/TWS-BCHA-et-al-Comments-on-BLM-Ebike-Rulemaking.pdf?fbclid=IwAR25fakvNC0JZxmIVa3PhUxgm2ArUtzRG43QwpMo4AZSnKhEquuZc9Tr_Dk

 

[johnf0246]

Class 1-3 are all 750w nominal, which is based on the older federal law for ebikes. We're all on 250w emtbs because of the European laws. I'm starting to see more 750w and higher emtbs out there, but they're of a lesser quality, at least now.

The DOI is being sued for allowing ebikes in National Parks without following the proper reviews, I'm expecting the same to happen to the BLM if this is any indication.

www.bcha.org/wp-content/uploads/2020/07/TWS-BCHA-et-al-Comments-on-BLM-Ebike-Rulemaking.pdf?fbclid=IwAR25fakvNC0JZxmIVa3PhUxgm2ArUtzRG43QwpMo4AZSnKhEquuZc9Tr_Dk

Slowroller: I read your link which explains the Anti-Ebike reasoning why Ebikes should not be allowed on BLM non-motorized trails. Hopefully their argument against allowing Ebikes on BLM non-motorized trails will fail due to the positive benefits of the public using an Ebike on existing BLM motorized and non-motorized trails.

It looks like the Ebike haters are not going to rollover without a huge legal battle. As with the positive advancements the mountain bike community has experienced over the last 5 to 10 years. I hope that will happen with Ebike acceptance. I call it all part of the PROCESS in mountain biking and I think it will be the same for Ebiking. When you have something that benefits a large segment of the population it’s hard to stop the progress.

 

[eMullet]

Sad too see that kind of restriction to mountain biking and e-bikes in general. Makes me appreciate my country's rights to venture even in private lands as long as you are not damaging crops, harass farm animals, property (i.e. fences, trees, general landscape, even fallen over tree is considered land owners prorerty), build any kind of features, or hang out in someones back yard in a disturbing way. On public lands some nature reserve areas forbid using bike as means of moving around or limit the use only on marked paths.

But in general, if its okay to bike, its okay to ebike (class 1).

 

[Rusty]

Legacy interest groups over here (i.e. Sierra Club, equestrian groups, etc) are more hostile than friendly towards MTBs full stop. Also, for the past several decades they have been winning the battle to have the forest service interpret Wilderness laws to ban MTBs from all trails in designated "Wilderness Areas". Under the guise of protecting forests from "development" politicians have been happy to agree to create new wilderness areas and effectively create new bans.

A very good friend lost his son to wire strung up along a trail in California that was legal for motorcycles with a Green Sticker. The Sierra Club defended the person that made the trap and pretty much encouraged such behavior. I consider them a terrorist organization that should have been banned 50 years ago.

 

[sendler2112]

Anyone that still thinks that a Class 1 electric mountain bike is lazy and that you can't get a workout, has never tried one. I get the same heart rate (pegged) on my emtb as I do on any of my analog bikes. Just that it allows an aging and average rider like me to approach the uphill segment times of the elite riders and get around a 13 mile and hilly loop at Green Lake on a long lunch and get back to work (I still don't even surpass the KOM's so these bikes obviously do not "roost up the trails" the way some people complain that they do any more than an elite athlete). I'm 60 which predicts a max HR of 160 which is the most I ever see on any bike. I can occasionally see 166 on my roller skis. Check out my average intensity from Thursday. 137 average, including warm up, and a couple max efforts to 160.
.

.

 

[Gary]

Anyone who thinks a 13mile loop on an Ebike is some sort of achievement worth sharing probably shouldn't be preaching about fitness.
I wish folk with Ebikes would stop trying to justify them as a genuinely viable alternative to a proper bike for gaining fitness.
As an aditional bike they're great and of course you still get a workout but you're not likley to ever get properly fit riding an assisted bike alone.
Plenty Ebike owners are infact quite lazy. Who'da thunk?

 

[johnf0246]

Anyone who thinks a 13mile loop on an Ebike is some sort of achievement worth sharing probably shouldn't be preaching about fitness.
I wish folk with Ebikes would stop trying to justify them as a genuinely viable alternative to a proper bike for gaining fitness.
As an aditional bike they're great and of course you still get a workout but you're not likley to ever get properly fit riding an assisted bike alone.
Plenty Ebike owners are infact quite lazy. Who'da thunk?

Gary: I ride 6,000 miles a year do you think I am getting any exercise? I am curious how old you are? Why are you even on this thread?

The fact is that Ebiking is becoming more accepted and that is a good thing.

 

[MadTurnip]

Anyone who thinks a 13mile loop on an Ebike is some sort of achievement worth sharing probably shouldn't be preaching about fitness.
I wish folk with Ebikes would stop trying to justify them as a genuinely viable alternative to a proper bike for gaining fitness.
As an aditional bike they're great and of course you still get a workout but you're not likley to ever get properly fit riding an assisted bike alone.
Plenty Ebike owners are infact quite lazy. Who'da thunk?

The point is 90 minutes or 168 Watts for 90 minutes, much better than no exercise. There is certainly a point where you can do no work on ebikes but I feel most are putting in a good amount of work while getting more power and more speed with more ups/downs. I wasn't one to call ebikes work in the past but most new ebikes certainally seem to have the assist balanced (if the rider hasn't fucked up the assist level completely).

Here in Ireland things have changed massively in the last 6 months. We went from its cheating to give me a tow up please. Alot more ebikes in the area and very accepting. Last year there was a small bit of stigma nothing most people couldn't shrug off. Covid with no uplifts in the bike park contributing hugely.
Just a great tool for getting a similar amount of exercise without killing yourself and more laps in. Loving the bike the weight is a massive downside for those of us under 70kg I feel.
I'd advise those under 70kg to take at least a 23KG or under bike.

 

[LRB]

Ebike haters even in emtb forums, who‘d a thunk?

 

[Gary]

I ride 6,000 miles a year do you think I am getting any exercise?

Of course you are getting exercise. But if your 6000miles are purely motor assisted you know fine well you haven't been doing as much exercise as you would have using a normal bike. This really shouldn't be difficult to grasp.
Ebikes are 100% accepted here.
I'm simply pointing out that It doesn't matter whether ebikes are seen as a "lazy" option or not. And trying to justify that point is entirely irrelevent to your plight

 

[Gary]

The point is 90 minutes or 168 Watts for 90 minutes, much better than no exercise.

Of course. any exercise is better than no exercise. I didn't say otherwise.

I hope you didn't choose 168W thinking it was the average wattage from the graph above. it's not. it's simply a wattage estimate at certain point around 10.3miles into the ride and unless Strava was monitoring the motor output the wattage estimate graph data will be inaccurate anyway.